I was diagnosed with A fib about 3 years ago. I believe the main danger is blood clotting. The best anti clotting agent in the world is Nattokinase. (Look it up with HSI -Heath Science Institute.) I've taken since I was diagnosed. My doctor had never heard of it and also the specialist I was referred to. (What sort of planet are they on) Because there appears to be no side effects and it is as cheap as chips it was my first choice. Oh and by the way it lowers blood Pressure/ Keeps the arteries soft/ and helps against Osteoporosis . The Japanese have taken Natto for a 1000 years for heart health.
I would however counsel against mixing it with anything especially blood thinners.
What I am interested in is how I can cure (or diminish) my A fib with natural products. I believe there has been some results with acupuncture. I believe the point they use is 'Nei Guan' point three fingers up from wrist in the middle between the tendons. Have any of you good people had any results with a Sea-band which stimulates this point (acupressure)? I would be grateful for your imput.
I am as keen as anyone to avoid taking drugs and work hard at diet, good quality sleep and exercise with daily meditation. Trouble is we are all very different and have differing causes and triggers for AF but what I can say is that I have never heard of Nattokinase so I must be on the same planet as your doctor and yes I will look it up and no I don't think I will compromise taking my regular anticoagulant without seeing good, scientific research based evidence rather than anecdotal evidence, which I never discount as there are many benefits for herbal remedies and there are also some terrible dangers as many 'natural' products have been fatal for some unfortunates.
I see a herbalist regularly so I will check it out with her as well. I have worn the type of band you describe - to improve propreception not AF - and no it made absolutely no difference.
Neither did any of the other ideas, remedies I tried over the years - the only thing that helped me was ablation so I would pass on what Bob said originally to me - stop chasing cures, causes and triggers for AF because that road leads to madness. After 9 years of managing AF with diet, sleep, exercise and meditative breathing I continue to live with managing it.
And I have come to the conclusion that 'natural' is not always best, even though my I would like to believe it.
Dear CDreamer thank you for the feed back on the Sea-band. Very helpful.
I of course agree with you about natural things are not always best and can be dangerous. There have however been some studies on Nattokinase. You might want to consult a Naturopath.
For my part I did not want to even get started on Warfarin that my doctor and the specialist wanted me to take. Without looking it up I noticed in the papers that for the first few weeks it can increase the possibility of clotting. Also ten to twelve people a day in the UK are admitted to hospital with subarachnoid bleeding related to anticoagulant therapy. I believe that in only one month plaque formation increases particularly with some blood thinners. You are also at increased risk of developing dementia and Alzheimer's. I had also heard about the effect it has on Vit K which is an essential vitamin which, amongst other things, keeps the calcium out of your arteries and in your bones. Not the effect you need I would argue.
Jack Lalanne the 'God Father' of fitness died in 2011 aged 96. It has been speculated that he might have lived longer had he supplemented with Vit K .
Before you all jump down my throat. I am of course fully aware that Vit K is the main vitamin involved in clotting-- It is removed from Nattokinase-- however I choose to supplement my diet with Vit K by eating a lot of cheese.
Whilst I am on this blog is there anyone out there with experience of Fulvic acid? As I mentioned I am on a quest for a natural cure for A fib. Fulvic acid when you look it up will blow your mind. It is probably the ultimate antioxidant. The molecule has 14 tetra trillion electrons to donate. There is nothing like it in nature. It rejuvenates cells and restores their electric charge. Could this renewed electrical charge possibly help A fib? Just asking .
I've just re-read your letter and I fully take on your message about caution but I choose to balance the lack of side effects with natural nattokinase (but I definitely would never mix it with conventional drugs) against the view that a major cause of death is from the side effects of drugs.
Also another major cause of death, out of interest, is:
'Not knowing there is a cure out there!' Tell that to Bob.
Good luck with your quest. If you find the holy grail of AFib cure I am sure everyone would be grateful and very happy. Until then I will continue with advice from my EP
I have never taken Wafarin - for much the same reasons you mention - the newer NOACS - now that they have sorted out the dosages - have a much better record and don't rely upon INR testing and don't have any dietary restrictions as VitK doesn't affect their efficacy,
I did read up about Nattokinase - the consclusion I came to was that it looks a very promising possibility but requires more research as to its efficacy regarding anticoagulation and that wouldn't be suitable for me as I have POTS.
Have you looked at Magnesium as a supplement? Many people find that along with lifestyle, taking a magnesium supplement or using an oil they have reduced or eliminated their AF,
Talking to an arrythmia nurse a few days ago she was saying that the gold standard protocol is now to offer ablation within the first month of the first recorded episode. Certainly ablation stopped my almost daily episodes for over 2 years and AF episodes now do not have the dibilitating effect they used to.
You will find this forum very helpful and supportive and many people who are interested in natural methodology but who are also extremely knowledgeable and have tried many approaches before finding something that helps them to manage AF and we all share, but most of us like to have good, accepted research before taking asomething we know little about and unfortunately, because there is not enough money in researching
I am always very interested in looking at natural ways to help with conditions, particularly with AF. I am taking an NOAC and beta blocker. My difficulty with trying new and natural remedies is that I am ticking along quite nicely at the moment and feeling pretty good, so what I don't want to do is rock the boat by changing what I'm doing to risk a return of AF .
Weighing up natural versus pharmaceutical remedies,I am looking at my quality of life right now, at the age of 60, and the potential / unknown effects of the drugs in the longer term. Do I risk my quality of life right now to protect my future health? Right now I think not, even though I don't like taking the medication I am on.I guess this is really why natural remedies are so little known and used by AF sufferers. Living for the moment has become much more important for me as time has gone on. If more time and money could be spent on proper clinical research of natural remedies I am sure it could open up all sorts of possibilities, but we know that pharmaceutical companies have far too much to lose by doing that, so it won't be happening any time soon I think.
I too have read disturbing reports about the link between Alzheimer's and anticoagulants, and am concerned about it.However, like other replies have stated, I need pretty strong evidence that it would be worthwhile stopping taking the medication that has helped me so much so far. I wish you well on your quest for good health, and I continue to keep an open mind for the future.
I have known about nattokinase for a number of years. I first heard about it on the US website afibbers.org. It has a number of devotees but there is precious little proper scientific evidence.
This latter paper does point out that there are some benefits in nattokinase, specifically K2, which has many benefits as have been pointed out before on this site.
However it's final paragraph about Nattokinase states: "Don't let this idiocy reflect poorly on the K2 conversation, which, I believe, holds real merit and is backed by legitimate science. This is symptomatic of a larger difficulty with the supplement industry: Insane and unfounded claims about one supplement erodes credibility for the entire industry. It gives regulation-crazed people like the FDA ammunition to go after supplements, something none of us need. You and I have to sift through the nonsense to uncover the real gems in this rockpile, real gems like vitamin D3, omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, and, perhaps, vitamin K2. But not nattokinase."
I thought the blog you introduced to us: cureality.com/blog/post/200... was utterly amazing. If you have A fib you should take a couple of hours off to read it thoroughly to the end and make copious notes.
When the average person can google the internet so easily and inform himself of any condition that should be the first thing he should do after diagnosis.
Dr Edward de Bono who coined the term lateral thinking once said something to the effect that:
You should get ALL the facts out onto the table and only make your decision when you have looked at the lot. Too often it seems that people,understandably,are scared and look for someone to hold their hand and tell them what to do.
Once you have made a 'too precipitate decision', and told everyone, you spend the rest of your time justifying your pre-decision.
Look at any article on boiled soyabeans, sorry, nattokinase and the overwhelming message that comes through is that its effectiveness against any human disease or condition is entirely under-researched. It might do this, it might be responsible for that.... No one really understands its pros and cons because no widespread clinical trials have taken place.
Anti-coagulation is a serious business. Why would you put your life in the hands of 'Dr Maybe' when thoroughly researched and tested anti-coagulants are widely available? Your enthusiasm for an untested course of action with such potentially dangerous outcomes is entirely beyond my understanding. It is, of course, up to each and every one of us to determine how we deal with our own AF but we should remember that there are many vulnerable folk on these forums and it's important that proposed 'fanciful treatments' are accompanied with a huge dose of caution.
As a scientist I like to see good evidence of effectiveness and harms of any treatment. The established anticoagulants are well proven, the risks quantified and dose clarified. Monitoring continues.
However nattokinase is not subject to the same rigorous review as it is not classified as a drug.
Ideally a trial comparing its use with traditional drugs is needed, but I can't see one has been done or indeed whether there is any trial evidence that it reduces strokes in atrial fibrillation, nor whether it is safe. Certainly there are studies showing its effect on blood clotting but this is not enough for me. I need to know if it will prevent a stroke.
Isn't this fun. How I would love to see a cure for AF in the natural world or new treatment for lots of things but as others have said why risk your life. And yes I mean life as an AF related stroke can effectively destroy that even if your cripple body hangs on for another however many years. Good luck with you chosen path. Not for me.
While there are many, many cures from nature, I try to remember that arsenic is also natural. There probably is a natural cure for Afib, but big pharma is not going to be too motivated to go after a cure they can't own exclusive patent to. The NOACs are $400 for a month supply in the US! I tried a couple of natural treatments but didn't see improvement and I am unwilling to dicker with this condition too much!
Yes Fred--I agree with all you say. I just wanted (which I've got--Thank you all) information about my condition A fib and the best way to eliminate/ameliorate based on 'The wisdom of the crowds ' and not just the medical establishment which is compromisingly tied to 'Big Pharma'
But - what you call 'the wisdom of the crowds' is almost unanimously on this thread warning against the use of fanciful treatments, and is recommending we follow medical advice - and your 'Big Pharma'.
I think it is very relevant that in 1000 years of use there are no scientific trials of nattokinase's effectiveness when compared with Warfarin. Could that be because it would be unethical to expose patients to such life-threatening endeavours?
Nature is not always benign - and not always best.
There are some scientific trials but not massive ones. Unless the government do the trials costing a million dollars. Fat chance.
I take Nattokinase because I am afraid of the 'life-threatening' problems with Warfarin.
I agree that nature is not always benign however when you take more than one drug produced by 'big pharma', as they coin it, are people ( you possibly) aware of the combined studies of all the possible interactions?
I agree that's the problem with any chemical which we take, either from natural sources or medical - but I prefer the years of testing and study with the known side effects and interactions to something which may be helpful but which has not been subjected to such rigorous testing and evaluation. I suppose at the end of the day, it has to be a matter of trust - a bad word to use in today's world of profit before all, perhaps.
Like many people, I owe my life to 'big pharma', so whilst there may be areas we can rightly criticize in their methods, without them life would be so much worse. As for the interactions of drugs, there are excellent facilities for checking - rxlist is my favourite, but my belief is that nothing is without risk - the trick is to minimise such risks by following the path we think most suitable for us.
I understand the need to research natural remedies, indeed Mrs Omniscient is a naturopath so its interesting to hear of something new (or new to me anyway). My CHADS score doesn't indicate ACs yet, so I'm more interested in relieving strain on the heart itself. I have tried various things and believe that although these supplements (as indeed the pharmaceuticals) help AF they won't cure it, sadly.
I have asymptomatic, permanent AF, it may be that a supplement or medicine could prevent you going back into AF if you get it periodically but I can't believe that a drug will bring you out of AF into NSR. I have tried taurine/argenine/acupuncture and so on. There was news recently of a Chinese drug (not a TCM herb) but it is only available in China or via internet pharmacies of unknown quality.
There is also a specific AF/heart related acupuncture treatment but only specialist acupuncturists know about it. In cases however I would come back to the NHS to check what was going on. If I were to swap to a natural AC I would want to check that, for me, it was doing its job, so I would want a blood test to show that the platelet count was going in the right direction.
My experience is that just as pharmaceuticals don't work for all people all of the time (how often have you gone back to the Drs with ineffective cream X to then get prescribed cream Y which is just the next cream on the list) neither do natural remedies.
On the subject of acupuncture I have found it very beneficial for general relaxation, relief of mild pain, and abolition of hot flushes after cancer treatment. I am aware of the Nei Guan point, and have purchased and used sea bands on both arms when AF begins but sadly have no reason to believe it helps so far, but I will continue to use it as it's too early to say and currently my AF episodes are changing.
The main natural remedy for me has been magnesium which is very helpful - better sleep, generally calmer, no cramps or twitches, and reduced frequency of PAF.
It's always interesting to hear varied views and so thanks for asking this, and thanks to all for interesting responses
Sea bands never stopped me being sea sick so I don't hold out much hope for them to cure AF. I love the idea of natural remedies but for now I'll stick with drugs! (Only warfarin currently).
I too am interested in trying accupunture, and have read about the places to be stimulated. I think its worth a try, especially if you have a recent onset, or of your afib is only intermittent mine has been ongoing for nearly ten years so i'm less optimistic.....as for natto as a blood thinner...i've read about it but never could find info on dosage (or how much to consume if one eats it). I was also unable to find a way to determine its effectiveness. Do you have info on those issues?
I also take Nattokinase instead of anticoagulants, my cardiologist was aware of this blood thinner and has no problem with me taking it. There is little to no research on Nattokinase which is sad.
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