how fit can one be on ADT and abiraterone?

[Nowhereman9]

I have been on Lupron and abiraterone for less than two months and I have gone from doing 50 consecutive push ips to 10. I am slim on KETO diet but am disenchanted with the lack of ability to maintain any muscle. How much strength can be maintained on these meds?

[fireandice123]

Dedicated physical exercise, particularly weight training helps. It’s hard sometimes because of the normal fatigue that comes with ADT but you just need to push through and do what you can. You may not build muscle but hopefully you will maintain the strength you have and it helps with the fatigue.

[Tommyj2 in reply to fireandice123]

If women can build muscle through weight lifting would it not stand to reason that guys should at least be able to maintain what they have at start of tx if they work out?

[Nowhereman9 in reply to Tommyj2]

Women have testosterone too.

[Tommyj2 in reply to Nowhereman9]

I realize this….which is why I suggested maintenance over building muscle……

[fireandice123 in reply to Tommyj2]

I think one should able to maintain muscle mass with weight training, assuming it’s serious and constant weight training. I’ve been able to increase muscle mass to a degree. Not close to a body builder physique but I definitely have more than I had when I started. However, I have read that not everyone is able to increase muscle while on ADT.

[Tommyj2 in reply to fireandice123]

Thanks for the reply….it’s good to know that the outlook isn’t wholly bleak once one starts ADT…..

[cfhny]

Same general scenario with me. Slim and in very good shape prior to Eligard. Have gone from doing 25 pushups to 1, and some days 0. Still quite physically active but muscle mass after the 2+ years of Eligard has declined dramatically.

[mrscruffy]

7 years, 2 months on ADT. I am managing to build a lot of muscle but it involves lots of supplements and 5 days in the gym heavy lifting, and nutrition that is on point. It sounds counterintuitive but the lifting prevents fatigue. Used to nap twice a day, now I just don't need a nap.

[Boonster in reply to mrscruffy]

Heavy Lifting vs. Machine Resistence Weights -- Can you get the same results with machine resistence that you have achieved with heavy lifting?

[mrscruffy in reply to Boonster]

I do both to mix it up and keep it fresh. As long as you are lifting to failure you will gain muscle providing your nutrition, sleep and workout schedule is sufficient

[Mgtd in reply to Boonster]

One thing I might add is that with lighter weights you may need to either increase reps or increase the number of sets you do. In my case I found it difficult to break into the rotation in the free weight area. They seemed to be more heavily used by the younger set and take much longer to set up.

I do the gym for 6 out of 7 days and usually get done with the machines in 20 to 30 minutes depending on number of people there. If crowded I do core work and yoga until machines open up. I find us older folks use lighter weights and are on and off the machines quickly. We also can work together better since it is easier to set up the weight for different people.

At the facility I go to there is a mix - gym rats and older men and women. I have been doing the gym for 6 months along with diet change and much more walking.

I have made progress adding muscle and reducing fat. For example, waist went from a 34 to 32.5”, machine bench press from 80 to now 140#, etc. I actually can now see the beginning of two rows of a “six pack”.

Weight has stayed the same so I am assuming I am trading muscle for fat. The best is that the side effects of Lupron and radiation have been very, very minor. No longer need naps.

So to answer your question. You can build muscle while on hormone therapy. Key is to monitor your protein intake to build muscles.

Hope this helps.

[Currumpaw in reply to Boonster]

The best exercise to stimulate overall muscle growth throughout the entire body is "Breathing Back Squats". The info on these squats is online. Start with a light weight to learn proper form and increase the range of motion gradually. Following breathing back squats is sort of a tie between deadlifts and cleans to overhead presses. When failing to press the bar overhead, push press it and when push pressing fails jerk the bar overhead.

I didn't mention the bench press did I? That would be number four as the chain of muscles used aren't activated as much. Stabilizing muscles get a good workout from the squats, deadlifts and cleans to overhead presses, push presses and jerks. You will see results in muscles that are indirectly used just because these exercises stimulate one's body to produce hormones.

Proper form when lifting free weights is more important than the amount of weight. This prevents injury.

Currumpaw

[Boonster in reply to mrscruffy]

Thanks very much fir the additional comment. Very useful.

[jackwfrench in reply to mrscruffy]

What supplements do you recommend? thanks -

[mrscruffy in reply to jackwfrench]

I use Ostarine, BCCA's and Creatine with an aggressive workout plan

[chaplainj in reply to mrscruffy]

What supplements are you using? Thanks

[mrscruffy in reply to chaplainj]

Ostarine, BCCA's, and Creatine

[Vangogh1961]

I exercise or walk 15-20 minutes a day, ( I still work full time) and lift weights three times a week. I'm weaker, but I'm much stronger than after I completed my chemo and my radiation. It took a year, but I almost feel "normal" now.

[OzzieJ in reply to Vangogh1961]

This is good to hear. I just completed chemo and radio 6 weeks ago and am on a dose of ADT plus Erleada. All I can do right now is walk the dog and work from home with afternoon naps. Prior to that I was in the CrossFit gym 3-4 times a week. So I’m really looking forward to getting back at it. The thing is that every time I try to push the envelope I end up in bed for 2 days absolutely whacked. So I guess a bit more time is required.

[pakb in reply to OzzieJ]

My husband took a while after chemo to build the strength back up too. He worked out through chemo but it took about 6 months afterwards to start feeling himself working out again.

[OzzieJ in reply to pakb]

I didn’t find the chemo too bad. Yes it was tough but I even managed to go skiing three times during chemo. But the radiotherapy has done me in big time and I thought it would be easier than chemo.

[pakb in reply to OzzieJ]

Hope it's a help and you can get energy back after it's finished!

[Tommyj2 in reply to OzzieJ]

That IS surprising. Do you know your radiation dose offhand?

[OzzieJ in reply to Tommyj2]

Nope. I didn’t ask. It was 35 fractions over 7 weeks. I am also on ADT and Erleada. But I was on ADT during chemo and wasn’t this tired.

[Vangogh1961 in reply to OzzieJ]

I mountain biked weekly with my brothers, until the after the third dose I didn't have the strength to climb. I had to give up mountain biking, but still road bike. I just can't push a few hundred feet up on rocky hills anymore.

[OzzieJ in reply to Vangogh1961]

I hear ya. I was an Ironman triathlete before all this. I did buy myself an electric bike and you would be amazed at how well it gets you up hills. On my good days I have used it for going up some of the hills around here. Might be worth looking at that option.

[Vangogh1961 in reply to OzzieJ]

I considered a e-mountain bike, but they are expensive. I got an inexpensive road bike and it helps on the days when I'm not feeling the uumph. At least it keeps me riding, for my mental health.

[JohnInTheMiddle]

A year and a half metastatic to spine so some exercises are not on. I'm on triplet therapy which includes the ADT of course. After chemo I could not do a single push-up. Now I'm up to 20 a couple of times a day.

Unless you really dig in, the usual answer from doctors and associations is "exercise is good for you". If you do a lot of research though, as lots of people have mentioned here, we learn that exercise is not just good for you! It is 100% essential for you.

Lots of reasons for this. Apparently, the more the better. I am talking about 5 hours of intensive exercise a week, if you can handle it - and maybe much more than that is even better.

My anecdotal report is I think my lesions go to sleep after I exercise. So if I keep exercising everyday I seem to get better.

I could share more, but that's enough for now. It's not just good for you but the new research seems to be revealing that it helps us win. For a while anyway...

[JohnInTheMiddle in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

BTW above "OzzieJ" said "The thing is that every time I try to push the envelope I end up in bed for 2 days absolutely whacked". This is something that I experienced as well! Not sure how to avoid,

[Carlosbach]

for the first six months after starting ADT I was a noodle. Walked miles every day, but my arms and legs were extremely weak. Added in resistance training at about a year in and feel much better for it, and I have added muscle. That being said, I am significantly weaker than pre treatment

[treedown]

I am a cyclist and restarted ADT and 2nd gen early this year. I am still seeing increases in fitness based on increased speed, increased mileage and increased elevation gain. I actually thought my legs were getting thicker on today's ride because of how my shorts fit. I don't measure them so who knows, could just be my imagination.You just need to keep with it. The more types of exercise aerobic, weight training, etc the better.

[SierraSix]

Definitely sucks but you have to keep on going. grease the groove on your push-ups do a set of five 10 times a day. I do 500 pull ups a month. That is 6500 in a year. Whenever I walk by my pull up bar I do at least a set of three. I love my pull up bar. That pull up bar is the best piece of equipment I’ve ever bought. Sometimes I just hang for 30 secs. Or attach rings and do ring rows.

Pull-up bar

[PSAed in reply to SierraSix]

Thanks for posting that info on the Pullup Bar as Ive been thinking of buying one but haven't made up my mind yet. Can I ask you, did you get the Bar with the Knurling or Smooth finish? Thanks in advance .

Nowhereman9, sorry for off topic.

[SierraSix in reply to PSAed]

Knurling roguefitness.com/rogue-jamm... but I do tape the bar as well

[spencoid2]

Do as much exercise as you can and more, it is critical. Do not expect to be the same as you were before ADT. There is no way I can lift what I used to and have made changes such as not putting heavy stuff high up and not expecting that I can still lift heavy things. Fortunately I can still bike even when walking is difficult. Did "graduate" from regular to e assist bike. Rode 12 miles today with my dog in a trailer (on the flats not in the mountains where I usually ride) and it was nice to see I could do it easily.

[Hidden]

Same happened to me, used to run 5 K in 25 minutes, after 3 years on ADT just walking. Hemo down to 12. After starting with BAT, hemo back to 15, running 5K again, much slower but still running.

[rfgh20]

My bench press has dropped from 240 to 200. Trying hard not to drop below 200. I'm on same regimen you are though good bit older. Staying active is all that's saving me. Mentally as much as physically.

[OldVTGuy]

I am 7 months into ADT. I have lot a lot of speed on the bike but my endurance is holding up. I have a lot of leg pain to go with it. I am lifting weights also and lately it feels like I am actually gaining a bit which is at least a bit encouraging. Otherwise the other lovely side effects like loss of body hair, night sweats, and a new gut are well entrenched.

I understand the benefits that taking your testosterone to zero has on weakening prostate cancer and, coupled with radiation, in aiding its demise. But I believe the negative effect chemical castration has on the rest of your body is underestimated and perhaps not fully understood.

I will be getting off it as soon as I can negotiate an exit with my RO.

[TJS-1]

You might discuss a change from antiandrogen ADT to darolutamide or apalutamide monotherapy with your MO. I did this a year ago and extremely pleased with lesser side effects. Maintaining/building strength also seems much easier as your T remains at normal levels. PSA still undetectable so appears to have same efficacy as SOC ADT, so far anyway.

[London441]

Lift as heavy as you safely can and do both long slower cardio and high intensity intervals for overall health.

The heavy lifting I know isn’t possible for all, but most guys who can lift heavy don’t for fear of injury. Get a trainer if in doubt.

[Bodysculpture in reply to London441]

Great advice London 441

[Bruce66]

JHMX says "...exercise is not just good for you! It is 100% essential for you."

Thank you for that little bit of wisdom. I'm not big on "lifestyle change" but have done so albeit reluctantly and get to the gym several times a week and my exercise bike almost daily. Looks like I need to kick it up a notch and make it a part of my DAILY life.

There really is no getting around it. Thanks to everyone else for your comments as well.

[Derf4223]

My $.02 is we need to build and use muscle to release myokines. If you under-nourish so as to not gain much fat weight, your body will take it out of your muscles too.

Personally, I do resistance training, aerobics and walks daily. In order to overcome the effect ADT no-T has on muscle, I supplement with Taurine, L-Theanine, HMB, and creatine. I have gained muscle weight/strength. My ADT gut won't budge but is not getting bigger.

It's taken a lot longer to build muscle on ADT and no T than before -- be patient and never stop. I'm closing in on 1 year of such exercise.

Another massive concern is bone density loss, accelerated by my no-T state from ADT.

My diet is largely vegetarian, no-dairy, no red meat, some chicken and turkey and fish. No alcohol or marijuana. I am taking 2x the normal creatine dose, 3 gm/day of HMB taken separately. I get some fatigue attacks whenever I sit for long and take venlafaxine to control hot flashes. Calcium, D3, K2, magnesium for bone maintenance and Prolia.

[LongTimeRunning]

Before I started ADT I bought a barbell and squat rack and started lifting. I have a set of dumbells up to 40 lbs which I used in years past, but needed the barbell for heavier weights. From about 1.5 months before ADT for about 3 months on ADT my increase in lifting capacity (squat, deadlift, overhead press, barbell row) was rather linear. The increase in weight used slowed down towards the end, but I think that was a natural plateau that comes from doing the same weight training program consistently. I ran a marathon on about 2 days a week running at the end of the cycle (my goal was simply to finish, which I did). Now, I'm doing the same weight training program again, except I switched to a higher rep, lower weight to hit the muscles differently (more of a muscle building program than my earlier strength-focused). I'm slowly increasing the weight.

I don't have a baseline for weights I maxed out on prior ADT, but I'm making progress and enjoying it. Still running and biking (spin bike) and thinking of getting a rowing machine. No supplements other than protein powder (as we age we don't use protein as well and need a relatively higher amount) and the occasional calcium or vitamin or two just for "insurance" when the diet feels too processed or unbalanced.

Food for thought: occasionally I track calories and nutrients when my weight inches up too much and to get a sense of my typical nutrient intake. Most labels on food products don't cover all nutrients so I continue to build up a database using info from USDA Food Central. I mostly eat a pretty balanced diet from all food groups, but noticed that it is very hard to regularly get the RDA for many if not most of the vitamins and minerals. Without going in depth and researching the rationale for each nutrient (i.e. how "accurate" these RDAs are and how frequently you need to meet them), it makes me wonder about how deficiencies in any given nutrient affect the physical constitution of any given individual.

[dmt1121]

I have been on abiraterone for five years. Before starting this treatment I worked out two to three times per week. I had chemo before that so, I wasn't working out as much even before abiraterone because of fatigue. With abiraterone, the muscle loss and fatigue make it hard. It takes a lot more effort and work outs end up much shorter with less rep and lower weights.

This is just my experience but I suggest challenging yourself with cardio and resistance exercises and not push yourself to exhaustion.

Take it as it comes and respect your body and abilities as they are now. Good luck.

[j-o-h-n]

All I can add is that I used to be called Gorgeous but now they just call me Handsome....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 08/25/2023 5:30 PM DST

[Bodysculpture in reply to j-o-h-n]

😆 Expected

[cancerfox]

I think strength maintenance depends on the individual and how hard he works to try and counteract the effects of ADT. But those who claim they have the same or more strength than pre-ADT were either in poor physical condition at the start of ADT and improved their excercise habits, have forgotten how they were before ADT, or are being dishonest. Some loss in strength and endurance are inevitable. 🦊

[Bodysculpture in reply to cancerfox]

On the money fox

[Bodysculpture]

It's relative to your input

You mentioned a Keto diet

Not particularly one suitable to gain muscle mass

You will gain strength earning comolexed carbs .Especially root crops

Such as YAMS SWEET POTATO

Back to Eden

To gain or retain strength you must combat what you feel and how you feel

4 years post stampeed stage 4

Training kept me strong and I am still a big guy by all means

My mind didn't get me there

My will did .

Input equals output

Loads of love Nowhereman9