Wim Hof method to counteract some of the effects from ADT

[Mascouche]

Don’t know if anyone here has tried the Wim Hof method but I’ve been trying it since my Lupron injection in hope of fighting off ADT related brain fog, depression and fatigue and I think it has been helping me so far.

It's creator developed this method after his depressed wife jumped to her death from the 8th floor but it does way more than fight depression.

It’s based on 3 pillars: breathing, cold, and meditation.

I’ve downloaded the phone app and am using only the free component, but he also has a web site and there are tons of youtube videos on this guy who holds 26 Guinness records.

Wim Hof says that the breathing exercise in which you pretty much hyper-ventilating for 30 breath before emptying your lungs and then holding your breath for as long as you can and then taking a deep breath and holding it for 15 seconds is alkalizing the blood, making it possible for us to achieve things that you might have previously though impossible. I repeat this cycle 4 times in a row and it takes me somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes.

For example, before I tried this, I did not think I could hold my breath for a minute and I am now able to hold my breath for over 2 minutes. This, along with ending my warm shower with a period of very cold water (I am at 30 seconds of very cold water) gives me quite a jolt in the morning which seems to help clear my head for a while even if it does not last all day long.

I don't know if his science is correct but since I feel good doing it, I intend to continue doing his daily exercises/challenges as I find that they are helping me but I was wondering if the scientifically inclined members of this site might think there are counterindications to hyperventilating or momentarily alkalizing the blood or going from warm to cold water for people with our disease?

[AlanMeyer]

I've never tried the Wim Hof method and never heard of it before reading your post.

Based purely on your description of it, I don't see any real harm, if done in moderation, in some of the recommendations and, if some of them are working for you, why not practice them? However I have some reservations that you should consider. These reservations are based partly on what you've written and partly on the Wikipedia article on Wim Hof.

1. I wouldn't take Hof's scientific explanations too seriously. I think the reason that hyperventilation enables you to hold your breath longer isn't that it is alkalizing your blood, but that it is oxygenating it. Your body needs oxygen and needs to expel carbon dioxide. Hyperventilating can saturate your blood with oxygen and expel a lot of carbon dioxide. Those changes enable you to hold your breath for a longer time.

2. Don't take risks! Hof has done some dangerous things with cold environments. He may be genetically better able to handle cold than most of us are. If cold showers make you feel good, okay. But if you're not feeling good from them - don't do them. And don't do as he did, immersing himself in a tub of ice or running barefoot across fields of ice and snow.

Personally, for me, I found the best counter to Lupron side effects was exercise. I suggest that you try that because it's backed by some scientific research as well as personal testimonials. Anti-androgens are known to damage and weaken mitochondria, which are organelles inside our cells that use our food to generate ATP molecules that carry energy to our muscles and other organs. Exercise helps to restore the mitochondria, which helps us do all sorts of things that require energy.

If I were you I'd keep up your exercise. I might also try the things you describe - breathing exercises, cold, and meditation, but I wouldn't go hog wild on the breathing and cold as Wim Hof does. Don't hurt yourself. See what's actually helping and use it. Don't go for arbitrary goals like holding your breath for more and more time or standing more and more cold. Observe yourself and do only what you see is working, not what is making you suffer.

Best of luck.

Alan

[Mascouche in reply to AlanMeyer]

Thanks for your input Alan, I appreciate it. I was already doing exercises before I added the Wim Hoff to the regimen. I did not know that ADT was causing damage to the mitochondria before you brought it up. That's counter-intuitive to me since Pr. Thomas Seyfried demonstrated that cancer is a matabolic disease caused by malfunctioning mitochondria rather than a genetic one by putting a mutated nucleus in a health cell and the cell remained healthy as it divided while the opposite happened when putting a normal nucleus in a cell with a bad mitochondria. So it seems odd to me that we're given a treatment (ADT) that damages even more mitochondria and hence increases our chances of having more cancer in that case. Every day I learn something new. Thanks.

[AlanMeyer in reply to Mascouche]

I think the evidence for the theory that cancer is caused by mutated genes is pretty overwhelming. Other theories may offer some insights, but if they say that cancer is not a process of genetic mutation, I would find it very hard to take them seriously.

Molecular biology is a fascinating subject but it's very, very, very complicated. I think that rocket science must be easier. It's not easy for most of us to absorb the chemistry, biochemistry, and biology involved in understanding the subject and we are often tempted to accept simple theories because ... well ... they're simple.

Alan

[Hidden in reply to AlanMeyer]

Welcome back. I'm a newer member of this site and after participating in several exchanges with members there seems to be an a point in time where many men become frustrated with the available treatments and begin to pursue alternative treatments, albeit not exclusively. During this pursuit for alternative treatment they become inundated with these simple explanations for cancer and how doing this or taking this or eating this will ameliorate the situation. It's understandable given the dire situation we find ourselves in. I just hope they are not doing more harm than good.That and it seems to be a waste of the limited time we all have.

[AlanMeyer in reply to Hidden]

Well said. I agree.

Alan

[Twoofus in reply to AlanMeyer]

Some people were most interested in hearing from you over the weekend. They were concerned since you had not been on this site for awhile.

[AlanMeyer in reply to Twoofus]

I'll try to become more active again.

[wagscure259]

I’ve been doing the Wim Hof method for approximately 3 years now. His breathing method is certainly not hyperventilating. The exhalation phase is incomplete or just a relaxation of breath after a deep inhalation. I’m skeptical of his scientific explanation of his breathing technique and as a spiritually reborn Christian his white light and energy force philosophy I avoid. That being said I take only cold showers for 10 minutes or ice baths for 5-8 minutes daily and these may help with inflammation as my C- reaction

Protein is .07 (without any supplements or a special diet)and it seems to help with post workout muscle soreness (I workout 2 hours daily) . You can read his book and get it for free from the library for greater detail if you don’t want to take the paid course. There may be some momentary alkali zing of the blood but doubtful in my mind and certainly not in the cancer environment and changing the ph of your blood is dangerous and not possible under normal circumstances.?They have done some amazing scientific studies on him and those he has trained where in one they were able to control an immune response to an injected endotoxin and he is able to maintain a normal core temperature under extreme cold temperatures. I haven’t noticed any improved clarity of thought or reduced depression/anxiety while practicing the method although my meditation is more prayer-like. I can hold my breath for some 3 minutes and 50 seconds while doing the breathing in the am. I have no allusion as to its ability to affect disease progression but I enjoy the daily challenges it imposes. BTW my PSA is slowly rising while doing the method and presently only on a 3 month Lipton injection after bicalutamide recently stopped as my MO believes it may have morphed into an activator of the cancer and I may be headed toward Zytiga. Hx.- GS 9 diagnosed 2013 metastatic with numerous mets including spinal to the level of T8. Peace

[GeorgeGlass in reply to wagscure259]

The stuff I’ve been doing may not stop the cancer but i bet it’s slowed it down.

[MateoBeach]

The science behind the many benefits of these practices may be “hormesis”. This refers to non inflammatory and non damaging forms of mild brief stress that activate the cellular pathways that protect our genome and mitochondria via epigenetic pathways. These include brief cold exposures, intermittent fasting, high intensity interval training HIIT, and probably your breathing exercise. The mechanisms involve SIRTuins, mTOR, and epigenetic signaling. It is fascinating indeed and nicely summarized in readable form in the book “Lifespan, Why we Age and Why we Don’t Need to “ by Sinclair.

[MateoBeach]

Oh! And daily deep meditation is the supreme practice for a happy peaceful life through all circumstances! 🙏🏻

[j-o-h-n]

My Wil Hof method is to do face down snow angels in the snow completely naked.....Takes your breath away.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 02/03/2021 7:47 PM EST

[Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n]

Interesting..How do we tell which end is your nose?

[spencoid2 in reply to Hidden]

after PC treatment the nose is the deeper hole in the snow.

[j-o-h-n]

It's snot easy.........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 02/03/2021 9:40 PM EST

[Hidden]

Controlling the mind and calming one’s own nerves is a must if we are to live with APC . I was 53 upon dx. 4+4 =GL8 #4 like you . It hard to read all that you’ve been through already . I say anything to feel better. I like the cold finish shower for circulation. Keep rolling amigo . Scott in Prescott Az. 🌵

[Mascouche in reply to Hidden]

Thank you Lulu700. I am still doing those techniques after all those months. I stopped doing them as regularly, skipping up to 3 days in a row near the end of March and beginning of April and noticed that I was feeling progressively worse. So then I started doing them daily again and I once more find myself feeling better. Living a comfortable life doesn't seem to be a good thing for my body. Putting myself through some discomfort, though not fun by its very nature, provides its rewards by making me feel healthier afterwards.

[Hidden in reply to Mascouche]

Treatments are one case in which if it doesn’t kill us it doesn’t make us stronger. We live diminished.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to Mascouche]

I read your bio. How did the radiation work for you?

Have you thought about trying orgovyx?

[Mascouche in reply to GeorgeGlass]

So far so good. My PSA is undetectable right now. However we'll only know if things went as hoped when I stop the ADT in April of 2023 and testosterone (hopefully) comes back without the PSA also coming back strong.

For Orgovyx, I am not familiar with it but since it is not an injection, wouldn't it add even more toxicity to the liver on top of whatever toxicity Zytiga also carries?

[GeorgeGlass in reply to Mascouche]

Are you on lupron now? Makes sure you doing overdue The long fasts. Fasting is beneficial but it can strain the heart and other organs if done too long or too frequently. You need food for energy. Your weight is probably best in the 165-170 range based on what you said in your bio.

[Mascouche in reply to GeorgeGlass]

I did not fast in 2021 aside of intermittent fasting. I find it harder to fast since I've begun treatments because even when eating I feel weak and also many of the pills (medication drugs or supplements) have to be taken with food.

But prior to that I've done 2 to 5 days fast several times and in March 2020 I did a 18 days long water fast.

My body feels and looks best at 160-165lbs. Above that weight range, my muscles do not look ripped. Below that weight range, I look sickly instead of healthy.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to Mascouche]

That sounds right.

Btw , i get low on energy too. Today i drank Rise nitro cold brew in a can, that i bought on a whim. It gave me amazing energy all day today.

[GeorgeGlass]

Hot and cold shock therapy usually promote an immune boost for survival. Infrared sauna, cold exposure etc. The tough part is getting cold long enough for it to cause a response.

[Mascouche in reply to GeorgeGlass]

In Canada during Winter getting a response to a fully cold shower should not take long. It takes less than a minutes before I feel like needles are piercing and burning my skin and less than two minutes before I feel dizzy from the cold. During summer however the same fully cold shower almost feels comfortable to me now.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to Mascouche]

I know what you mean. My only concern is constructed by coronary arteries too much from the cold water. I need to focus on breathing deep during the water treatment.

[Hidden]

I hyperventilated once for awhile and did an underwater swim at scout camp and passed out. Next thing I knew some guy had his mouth on mine. Can’t see that it would be all that productive but you can fool the lungs into thinking they don’t need air