Are Anti-oxidants to be avoided with aCRPC?

[HerbieP]

I was getting vitamin C infusions to help with my immunity prior to my docetaxel infusions and have continued to get them the in-between weeks. TA mentioned anti-oxidants counter the ROS needed for cancer cell death. Does this mean I should stop IVC and any/all other supplements I have that are anti-oxidants?

[tom67inMA]

I'd recommend speaking to your doctors. Radiation works by generating ROS to kill the cancer, so when I casually inquired about anti-oxidants my RO's response was "please don't".

That said, in another context such as immunotherapy I could imagine that there could be potential benefit. I have no data to back that up, just a hunch.

In most cases, I'm against such alternate therapies, but some members here have had intravenous Vitamin-C and have done quite well. I haven't done the research but suspect there may be specific cases where it can be beneficial. I myself asked my medical team about intermittent fasting before chemo, and they gave me the okay because they didn't see any significant potential for it causing me harm, and understood the psychological value in trying something, anything that might make a difference.

[Gemlin_]

Antioxidants protect both healthy cells and cancer cells, which means that if you have cancer, they can accelerate its development and spread.

[LearnAll]

It depends on what condition your prostate cancer is in ? If you have high PSA and uncontrolled growth of cancer cells, it is prudent to avoid anti oxidants. Also, during actively getting chemo or radiation, its better to avoid anti oxidants.But If you have reasonably controlled prostate cancer indicated by low PSA and ALP, its a good idea to continue anti oxidant and anti inflammatory foods,

(1) Anti oxidant /anti inflammatory foods/supplements keeps your normal cells from converting into cancerous cells due to robust immunity provided by them.

(2) If your general health is good and your body gets ALL the nutrients (Vitamins, Minerals etc) it slows the cancer growth, They preserve body's natural cancer fighting capacity.

For most people whose cancer is under control , anti oxidants and anti inflammatories

cause no harm...actually they are beneficial.

[pjoshea13]

Herbie,

There are many PCa studies involving polyphenols where, as a final step, a reliable antioxidant is introduced. If the anti-proliferation effect is abrogated, the conclusion is that the protective effect relied on the creation of reactive oxygen species [ROS]. The paradox is that those polyphenols are often consumed as antioxidants.

Many antioxidants become pro-oxidant at high levels:

"Some substances can serve as either antioxidants or pro-oxidants, depending on conditions. Some of the conditions that are important include the concentration of the chemical and if oxygen or transition metals are present." [1]

See: "Prooxidant Effects of Antioxidant Vitamins" [2].

& "Redox (reduction–oxidation ...)" [3].

Why do people use IVC for cancer? Because an oral dose is not pro-oxidant.

IMO, one should not take low doses of polyphenols. Combinations of large doses may contribute to ROS. Don't ask me the obvious question: "How large", but we are talking of pharmacological doses, not physiological doses that might be obtained from diet.

-Patrick

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-o...

[2] web.archive.org/web/2008040...

[3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox

[Tall_Allen]

Vitamin C infusions are different biochemically from oral Vitamin C pills. Oral Vitamin C is an antioxidant, free radical absorber; infused Vitamin C is a pro-oxidant, ROS creator. The pro-oxidant effect doesn't occur unless very high plasma concentrations are reached, and that won't happen without infusion. Unfortunately, as a single therapy, Vitamin C infusions were found to have no effect:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

However, there is a possibility that infused Vitamin C may assist docetaxel kill cancer cells more effectively. This is the subject of an ongoing clinical trial. Unfortunately, results aren't expected until 2024:

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

Meanwhile, if you want to try it during chemo, there is no reason to think it is unsafe. Just stay away from oral supplementation.

[Hidden in reply to Tall_Allen]

Bravo! ✌️😎

[drmoose in reply to Tall_Allen]

there is a good layperson's summary at Foundmyfitness foundmyfitness.com/topics/v... which shows some of the differences between oral and IV vit C, and talks about it going from anti-oxidant at blood levels achieved with oral, but going pro-oxidant at blood levels achieved with an IV.

Large oral doses seem to reach limits in terms of blood levels, and also may cause "GI distress" ...

[ocman in reply to Tall_Allen]

What about Vitamin C infusions after Brachytherapy (monotherapy)?

[Tall_Allen in reply to ocman]

I would imagine the pro-oxidant effect might be helpful in getting complete cell kill, but I really don't know. Maybe there will be a clinical trial some day.

[Hidden]

I did 50 gram vitamin c ivs bi-weekly for over a year upon dx. It helped pull me out of a hellish urology .. go C! I did it throughout 8 weeks imrt . I followed the naturalpathic .

[dhccpa]

I'm no expert on IV-C, but many who use it maintain that Vit. C at very high doses is actually a "pro-oxidant," rather than an anti-oxidant, and enhances the chemo effect in killing cancer. That's the Jane McLelland thesis. Never used it myself.

[Currumpaw]

Hey HerbieP,

Intravenous vitamin C is an oxidizer. It is molecularly so close to sugar's molecule that IV C registers on diabetic test strips. A couple links that will interest you---copy all between the lines and then put it in your search bar.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Intravenous High-Dose Vitamin C in Cancer Therapy ...

cancer.gov/.../2020/yun-can...

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Systematic Review of Intravenous Ascorbate in Cancer ...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/300...

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

An excerpt from the last link:

"Conclusion: Overall, vitamin C has been shown to be safe in nearly all patient populations, alone and in combination with chemotherapies. The promising results support the need for randomized placebo-controlled trials such as the ongoing placebo-controlled trials of vitamin C and chemotherapy in prostate cancer."

Currumpaw

[j-o-h-n]

Well Herbie..... I guess that answers your question (simple eh?)..... Next question..... why did the chicken cross the road?

Life is full of forks in the road............

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 01/09/2021 10:28 PM EST