Read this before considering Naturopa... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Read this before considering Naturopathic "treatments"

gregg57
gregg57

Here's an article written by an former Naturopath about this quack profession. This is written by someone who knows this scam from the inside because she was a Naturopath herself before getting out of it due her boss's illegal activities.

skepticalinquirer.org/2020/...

69 Replies
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Thanks gregg57

👍👌

My personal experience with naturopathy was going to one 9 years before my dx. Just for a checkup. He ran some blood tests, had me do a food log for a week and recommended some vitamins and thyroid meds and told me to eat more salads. I did start eating more salads. The years following I kept trying to find a MD family practitioner but kept running into scheduling issues and felt fine anyway. I had been getting fitter and eating better ever since the visit to the naturopath and about 9 years later found a medical Dr. I blame no one for anything it has been my choice to ignore healthcare and urologists during those intervening years. I went for a general checkup and he asked me about a PSA test and a few days later he called me personally and told me my PSA was 156. I changed many things at that point all related to diet and my PSA dropped to 95 under a different assay. I started reading and considered an alternative treatment. After my research I decided against it, to many variables and not sure where to start as I was not going back to a naturopath. My next PSA was up to 110 with the same assay maybe a month later.

I wonder if I had gone to a MD instead of a naturopath 9 years prior if I would have gotten better info for screening if nothing else, but that's all . I would not consider naturopathic medicine going forward though I am that person that would want to and my wife is as well. My less immediate family is religious and would leave it with God. I have read many books about radical remissions, cancer as a metabolic disease, Keto diet, etc. But I am not a gambling man. This conventional treatment has its SEs but my PSA is <0.1 now and I am otherwise healthy and happy. I am glad I made the decision I did. I am aware natural things can lower PSA from experience, so I will keep doing the things I started right after dx. These things are pretty universal on this site. I wish the best for everybody here regardless of treatment they choose. I realize that what works for one may not work for another, and that this disease is with me for the rest of my life.

Thank you for posting this. I have seen Huber's name mentioned by patients on this site. I would only add that naturopaths that prey on vulnerable patients are supported by unregulated multibillion dollar companies like Life Extensions and Herbalife that make even more money by preying on vulnerable patients. These companies have gained a lot of political power by contributing to friendly politicians.

This quote is telling:

"Former Senator Orrin Hatch from Utah, was the author of the DSHEA law in 1994 and profited greatly for it. His family is invested in supplement companies, including Herbalife, among others. Between 1989 and 1994, Herbalife International gave Hatch $49,250; MetaboLife, $31,500; and Rexall Sundown, Nu Skin International, and Starlight International a total of $88,550. In addition, according to his financial disclosures for 2003, Hatch owned 35,621 shares of Pharmics, a Utah-based nutritional supplement company. In the early 1990s, Hatch's son Scott began working for lobbying groups representing vitamin and supplement makers. Kevin McGuiness, Hatch's former chief of staff, was also a lobbyist for the industry.

The supplement industry has thrived in the state of Utah, and thanks to Senator Hatch, the industry has grown unchecked -- all while patients continue to be misled and possibly harmed. In fact, the corridor of 1-15 in Utah is known as the silicon valley of the supplement industry."

medpagetoday.com/blogs/camp...

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Tall_Allen

Thanks.

I find it amazing that someone posts a claim here about Dr. Huber having a 90% success rate and some people just believe that without even questioning it as if it must be true.

There is incredible confirmation bias going on with this nonsense. People want to believe that there are some magical natural cures and treatments for cancer. and when someone comes along to validate their belief, they follow along like sheep to the slaughter.

The quacks that offer these fake "treatments" make them sound good, easy to do when you compare them to real cancer treatments that have side effects. Just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Having no side effects doesn't make it effective.

I here this constant refrain from the fake treatment crowd about how the Greedy BIG Pharma and Oncology Death Star are keeping all of us sick with their treatments that don't cure as if these practicers of natural "treatments" are somehow doing all of this as a charity. Anyone who believes this can ask my friend's widow or go visit her Gofundme page. She was quite angry when I saw her at the funeral and at that point, refusing to pay tens of thosuands of dollars to the quack doctor that killed her husband.

Cancer patients need to understand the consequences of seeking and using unproven, unscientific treatments. There are people on this forum that are advocating this while taking no risk of their own. This is incredibly irresponsible and unethical.

It's not a game, lives are stake.

Miket218
Miket218 in reply to gregg57

Very well stated! People believe what they want to believe and charlatans profit hugely because of that.

Currumpaw
Currumpaw in reply to Tall_Allen

Hey T_A!

Agreed, there are charlatans profiting from other's misfortune. One should be wary of any "stay" at a facility in another country for a month or more offering special treatments and lifestyle changes.

I do not, however, feel that anyone can associate the works of Dr. Laurence Klotz and Dr. Charles "Snuffy" Meyers in treating prostate cancer in any way with a less than ethical manner. They have found that certain natural foods, food derivatives and also medications can help men avoid or prolong the time to recurrence. It is often more about learning what to do to "live with it". These doctors are highly respected internationally. Their reputations are beyond reproach.

Currumpaw

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Currumpaw

Really? Show me what they wrote about foods and food derivatives, please. I have never seen anything about that published in a peer-reviewed journal by either of them.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Tall_Allen

People here repeatadly make these kinds of statements without any supportive evidence because their audience just accepts what they already believe without proof. That's how the charletans are able to be in business.

6357axbz
6357axbz in reply to gregg57

Like certain politicians

Currumpaw
Currumpaw in reply to Tall_Allen

Hey T_A,

I won't bite on that hook again. In the past you have been unrelenting about me imagining a lion chasing me and how imagination can be responsible for the placebo effect. I just wish you could have found an animal I stood a chance of outrunning!

I'm sure you are aware of the reputations of these doctors. Perhaps you should contact them. I am being facetious, please forgive me. There is much info on the net about them and it was Dr. Klotz who was instrumental in dropping Gleason Grades 2 through 5.

Remember--they do not promise cures by diet changes, supplements and certain meds--only a possible prevention of recurrence or prolonging the time to recurrence. Is that bad? Again--learning to live with it as best as possible through a combination of lifestyle changes, food choices, supps and meds and whatever conventional treatments are chosen. I would never tell anyone that they should not have a conventional treatment that they chose. I would even suggest that they contact you for your opinion as you are knowledgeable about various conventional treatments and are not biased as doctors that do RP or radiation and so on. A treatment regimen in a foreign country? I already mentioned how little faith I have in those. The "doctor" in the post slipped through somehow and should never have been allowed to practice.

As soon as someone mentions any type of holistic approach to be combined with conventional treatments your teeth come out. I know why and wish you well. It is sometimes hard to learn to live unpleasant events in our lives. I have my own.

Remember--I use you as a resource for those seeking knowledge about conventional treatments. If I was in the position where it was necessary to make a choice of a treatment I would hope you would be a resource for me because I value your opinion on conventional treatment.

When employed in a multi billion dollar pharma company those of us on the "ladder" were given an informal psyche test. Many dominant personalities among us. The company "shrink" told me that my personality makeup is unusual and rarely seen. He told me that many of the others would do well as they had very dominant personalities but might also "do well" at a cost. He told me that I am nearly a 50/50 blend of dominant and creative. He used a military analogy. The others would take that hill but at the end their troops and resources would very likely be depleted and moral could suffer. He told me that I would take the hill, changing strategies as necessary to preserve resources and limit casualties. My troops would still be a viable force rather than being decimated and needing evacuation to the rear. That was interesting to me as there is a general in my ancestry whose tactics are still taught at West Point.

I try to avoid tunnel vision and keep an open mind --but I eschew "garbage".

The weather is beautiful where I am. I hope you enjoy the day too. I have plans.

My best to you.

Currumpaw

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Currumpaw

You said: "Remember--they do not promise cures by diet changes, supplements and certain meds--only a possible prevention of recurrence or prolonging the time to recurrence. Is that bad?"

No it's not bad at all, it's just not proven. And that's the problem. Evidence is very important.

It seems to me like the alternatives folks often start with this claim that diet and supplements can be used to treat cancer, then when pressed fall back into "Ok maybe not, but they are still helpful" or "no the truth is somewhere between "a treatment" and "helping conventional treatments."

They may help with things like side effects or making someone feel better about doing more, but saying they have any direct role in cancer treatment requires proof.

People who tout alternatives need to get used to providing evidence for their claims instead of just throwing claims around as if everyone just believes it as some kind of universal truth.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Currumpaw

By "Bite that hook" I guess you mean show evidence instead of stating untruths.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Tall_Allen

"I guess you mean show evidence instead of stating untruths." How dare you ask for that!

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to gregg57

LOL - Amazing the stuff some people just make up on this forum and state as if they were true. It's also amazing that others believe their lies.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Tall_Allen

No proof is required, "worked for me" is good enough. People are looking for others to reinforce what they already believe. Naturopathy is a belief system so asking to prove anything is not necessary.

You see these people asking questions like "Did anyone have any luck with XYZ supplement?" So if 2 or 3 people say "yes" then I'm ready to try it?

And of course it's very important to keep in mind that many of people who advocate for this stuff are low-risk and can often get away with doing nothing.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to gregg57

You are right that it is a belief system. It actually dates back to the 19th century when Emerson, Thoreau, Fuller and others popularized a large religious movement in America called "Transcendentalism." They believed that Nature is the ultimate Good. They were anti-intellectual, claiming that we are born with instincts that enable us to live as one with Nature - a state we should all aspire to return to.

Is that Dr. Vinny Boom Klotz ? :)

Hey Danielgreer!

That would be Dr. Laurence Klotz who at his urging, Gleason grades 2 through 5 were eliminated. He is very respected internationally. He is one of the sources that I use to find, as "someone" said, my "lies". Dr. Charles "Snuffy" Meyers is another source for my "lies". I am not getting into the gutter. I have never called anyone on this site a liar or insulted anyone. I will respect their point of view and perhaps disagree. I also am aware that occasionally studies have been disproven --how many studies purported that medication was safe for the public and were then found to cause illness or death? Studies can be cherry picked. Insulting others that one disagrees with could drive them from this site. It makes one wonder if that is the goal? If sharp words that themselves have no basis are hurled but make someone feel good --I have broad shoulders.

These doctors have over their decades of experience and thousands of patients treated have found that certain lifestyle changes help us to live "with it" giving us a better quality of life and a prolonging of that life that we have. This is the information that they convey. Rather than bring out the torches, perhaps we should open our minds.

I have never said conventional treatments should be avoided. I even stated that one who has denigrated me is very knowledgeable about conventional treatments and I would recommend him as a source of info about those treatments. I do respect his point of view.

A video of Dr. Klotz speaking --this video is a source for some of my "lies".

youtu.be/-JpHkqg8j-8

Currumpaw

Great article..Everyone should read it.. There are thousands of fake doctors practicing their fake medicine with impunity..

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Fairwind

They are predators that prey on vulnerable, sick people. It's really sad.

Many of us when diagnosed want to believe there is a magical cure we just dont know about it

We then search for treatments that sound really good with promises of a cure or remission

I can relate

I desperately needed a cure despite what those that spent years studying cancer told me

I was afraid of chemo I seemed to never hear a good story

Healthunlocked shattered many of these theories and guided me in the right direction

Thank god for hormone therapy chemo and radiotherapy

Millions of us are alive

Many have had amazing response to chemo and radiotherapy

I lived in Barbados most of my life

So the Bush doctor could cure the common cold with amazing results

He told you it was a 5 day course boil this and that together in 5 days you should feel better

The trick is you should feel better in 5 days regardless what you take

Bush doctor was arrested an illegal abortion in his home where he killed a girl of 16

When I read his procedure I cried

This bush doctor who claimed to have healed himself went on to kill many others in his care

Many of which were those with PC

We need to be protected from these scammers

They take your money and your life

Hey Gregg, More Cosmik Debris from the Mystery Man!

SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX in reply to Danielgreer

Frank Zappa spelled it out

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to SPEEDYX

Real pancho or Sears poncho? The choice is ours.

SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX in reply to gregg57

As long as we are not un-concho!!!

6357axbz
6357axbz in reply to SPEEDYX

😊

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to SPEEDYX

You have to be creative to find something that rhymes with poncho and fits into the song.

SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX in reply to gregg57

I mistakenly ate the yellow snow!

Danielgreer
Danielgreer in reply to SPEEDYX

Take your medications and your preparations and ram them up your snout!

SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX in reply to Danielgreer

Never with my beautiful nose...I have a pipeline installed

Lolol

Easy buddy

As P. T. Barnum once said, There's a sucker born every minute.

SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX in reply to Fran2020

Never Give A Sucker An Even Break.1941..WC Fields proclaims!!!

Good article on naturalpath quackery but I'll continue to take my supplements ... just to get a rise out of TA and the supplement police. BTW, when I went for a-fib ablation surgery they gave me a magnesium supplement ... and charged me a bunch for it ... those damned quacks. I had stopped taking my magnesium at the same time they had me stop taking my a-fib meds days before surgery. They wanted me primed to go into a-fib so they could ablate the misbehaving tissue. Oh wait, another dirty word -- ablation.

Did you get a rise ? Lol

I find it extreemly difficult going against his word

It's his way or the highway.

The article seems somewhat anecdotal. The best way to fight fraud is to come out with better, more effective and safer treatments that cure cancer. As soon as conventional medicine does that, this problem will solve itself. But not a day before.

Right now, it seems like two gangs fighting for consumer dollars, and both sides can seem a little unsavory.

The writer presents some interesting viewpoints but falls far short of a convincing indictment of all alternative efforts to fight cancer. I have no doubt, though, that all manner of folks are trying to get their hands on those cancer treatment dollars.

The best way for conventional medicine to win the day is to, very quickly, develop cheap and effective cures, making it obvious to the medical consumer that those options are best. In other words, win the day with a better product. But I see nothing on the horizon to indicate that will happen in our lifetimes.

noahware
noahware in reply to dhccpa

I think this is can be seen with PC, in that much research seems to be about the treatment of castration-resistant prostate cancer (the type of cancer that FOLLOWS chemical castration) rather than geared towards discovering meds that might preempt the non-curative standard of care.

There is a lot more money to be made, or at least to be made more easily and with less risk, in chasing the next generation of "slightly-better" drugs than in trying to find entirely new drugs that might change the whole standard of care.

dhccpa
dhccpa in reply to noahware

Definitely!

After reading the whole article in above online address, I could not find any mention of of any man's Psa levels while undergoing naturopath "medical" procedures or after eating or drinking substances that were recommended to cure cancers.

One might hope that one might just have see some PROOF that naturopathy worked, but there was not one single piece of information concerning Psa levels.

Now I don't want to type too much about how my mind works when I see no evidence that any particular natural / alternative therapy is found to offer any benefit which can be measured in blood test numbers. Some with high income from naturopathy industry might be tempted to sue me for saying dreadful things about them and how I caused so much financial trouble.

So don't let me stop you deciding to consult with a naturopath doctor, be my guest, Its a free world and you are free to get whatever you want for your cancer.

Hey, I thought of several things you could try,

( 1 ) Ground up cane toads. Can be tipped onto salad, and then down the hatch.

( 2 ) DNA stem cell transplant from Our Dear Germaine Greer. Now we all know she's spent a life trying to better wymmins lives, but somebody found it worked real well against Pca, which could not be more of a male-only condition. Warning, side effect is that although Pca vanishes in a week, a man is prone to become a grumpy old dame, instead of being grumpy old man.

( 3 ) Glycophosfate, aka weedkiller. Injected to Pca sites. We all know how Pca springs back up like a weed after ADT fails, or after chemo only works for awhile, or Zytiga seems great at first, then fails. Well, if Pca is a type of weed, you need weed killer.

( 4 ) Sit very close with bum against 5G telephone transmitting antenna. We all know it 5G causes C19 virus, but odd benefit was seen in men with Pca. 10 minutes is enough at 10am when phones are busy.

There are probably 9,563 other recommended cancer cures you might try, but I for one prefer to get mainstream medicine for my cancer. Although some of it has not been fully approved, like Lu177, there's so much evidence that Lu177 has worked so much better for me than so many things I tried before.

I really don't know why Nature sent us last 3 very cold days of rain snow and wind just like winter, when it should be Spring. I'll try to cycle a bit tomorrow, where temp is predicted to be higher.

Some say Global Warming makes world more windy, so more warm wind blows down over Antarctica, and melts the ice, then continues north to make us freeze in Spring. No such thing happened last year when we had many 40C+ days and raging bushfires after years of drought.

Always look on the bright side, and not be upset by anyone saying the word "reality" when they ain't talking about house prices.

Patrick Turner.

I got a good chuckle out of that. I really did!

I guess I read both camps and try to choose and combine what I think will work best for me. I'm on ADT like a good little eunuch, but I also experiment with other things (unless, of course, I read of evidence-based human clinical trials that show an alternative therapy conflicts with prescribed treatment).

Hidden
Hidden

As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. To denounce a whole method of care is irresponsible. Just as conventional medicine can be vitally helpful, so can holistic therapies. The converse is true too. Conventional therapy doesn't help every man and sometimes it takes awhile to find the right fit. I'm disappointed in Health Unlocked for taking such a one-sided anti-holustic approach as of late.

A natural approach coupled with conventional therapies can help so many men. The best approach is one that is well rounded. Again and again we see that depending solely on conventional care is dangerous. Without focusing on why your body may have created the cancer to begin with sets a man up for subpar treatment and possible reoccurances.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Hidden

You said: "I'm disappointed in Health Unlocked for taking such a one-sided anti-holustic approach as of late"

I am also disappointed that they allow people to post all kinds of unproven, unscientific nonsense on an Advanced Cancer Forum where people are often in life-threatening situations in need of real treatments.

They also allow these same people to disparage the vital treatments that others need to survive.

Oh yes, they are way more tolerant than I would be.

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to gregg57

I've seen a self proclaimed expert disparage an accepted treatment with extreme prejudice on this site. Guess who.

6357axbz
6357axbz in reply to WSOPeddie

“disparage an accepted treatment“.

Please be specific. What accepted treatment are you referring to????

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to 6357axbz

HIFU -- High Intensity Focused Ultrasound.

webmd.com/prostate-cancer/p...

6357axbz
6357axbz in reply to WSOPeddie

From your article:

“Though it hasn't been approved for the treatment of prostate cancer in the U.S., it is being used in clinical trials to treat it. Researchers are still figuring out how well it works and its side effects.”

Also

“Men with cancer that hasn't spread beyond the prostate may get the surgery.”

The later is not a subject for this advanced PCa blog.

Patrick-Turner
Patrick-Turner in reply to Hidden

Well, I don't depend on any non mainstream medicines. I tried bitter almonds which contain amygdalin, which was extracted and called Leatrile in 1950s, and infused at Leatrile clinics in 1000mg doses, but they got shut down by Govt. I was eating 30 apricot kernels a day, about 30mg amygdalin, well above official safe levels of 4mg daily, and this had zero effects at all. Some still believe the cynanide part of amygdalin molecule kills cancer.

I watched how ppl took baking soda, sodium bi-carbonate and they didn't make their blood more alkaline to kill Pca. Even if infused into an artery it does not work.

All forms of cannabis do not work. I grew my my own low THC / high CBD sativa and took enough oil all for a 4hour our silly time at night for 8 months in 2015.

Psa just went up with all these things.

If you ever think ADT is likely to make you unable to think straight, try cannabis, and try working out your tax return or playing chess, its all just way to difficult.

But I had emails from sellers of CBD oil who insisted it cured cancer. Dennis Hill and Rick Simpson were two men who went very public about it, and people believed because there they were, in videos talking BS about cannabis. Dennis said he has stage 4 Pca with it in his bones, but it was cured with CBD oil.

No proof was ever offered by anyone making grandiose claims on "alternatives".

If you purchased CBD oil online, it may have been canola oil with about 1% CDB oil, so very diluted, and costing $5,000 for a 100ml bottle. Oh how the money rolled in!

If the scammers can't make dough from serving BS to customers, you never hear anything from them.

I am probably utterly socially crazy because I cycle 200km a week, alone, and am not married, and have not got kids / grand kids and I work alone in a shed to fill in time on craft work. Oh what a terrible man I must be. I don't give a rat's posterior about wot other ppl feel about wot I iz, or wot I ain't, but I always like to gently persuade others about reality, wherever I meet them, and listen to their version of reality, and compare notes, and if they offer more truth than I can about something, then I am made wiser.

Unfortunately, wisdom is often never gained in old age because ppl begin to forget more each day than they learn, and our world is just so full of fake information, fake everything, fake ppl.........

Finally, a nice Spring day here with clear BLoo Skigh. Thanks Mr Nature, its about time, and I might enjoy a cycle ride later.

Patrick Turner.

Immediately after initial dx I too had seen the dennis Hill and rick Simpson videos and accomplished the full program (something like 60 grams) twice. Didn’t do shit except I slept like a baby throughout with no get ups to pee.

I learned early on to be skeptical of anecdotal treatments.

I grew 9 plants of wild Sativa which has low THC and unknown amount of CBD.

I removed male plants early, to get best type of oil. Grow season was from November 2014 to March 2015, using powerful mercury and or sodium street lamps.

My total oil yield was 22 grams, like a grease, after mashing up the flower heads with seeds in a coffee grinder, soaking in white spirits, then squeezing up and then leaving the mixture in large dia fry pan with flywire cover for couple of days until solvent evaporated. I rinsed the mash with spirits and did same thing but git very little oil from the squeezed mash.

I was able to 1/2 fill a tiny glass jar with the "oil" extract, like a dark green-brown grease rather than oil.

I used a small wooden paddle to push all the oil into a small glass jar. When done, I cleaned the tiny amount of oil on paddle, and cycled up the road to get lunch.

After lunch I realized I was stoned out of my cotton pickin mind, and a couple of strange hallucinations occurred so I cycled home with smile, but real slow

During next 8 months I could not increase the dose to more than about 5mg, a tiny amount, 0.005grams. As soon as I was convinced the cannabis oil has ZERO effect on several Psa tests, I quit taking the oil, and found I had maybe 1/2 what I began with after harvest. I had no withdrawal symptoms, no paranoia, and day after each dose allowed normal activities.

I found out our bodies make CBD like molecules. But the farmed medical CBD has been found to help a lot of ppl, especially epileptics, and some others with medical conditions where mainstream medicines often just don't work.

My Sativa oil was harmless, calmed me down, but otherwise useless.

The Indica cannabis grown in grow houses is often far greater yielding with high THC and low CBD, and this junk is real bad for young ppl with tendency to get mental problems and I know 2 men in 30s who smoked much of the grow house Indica and both became schizophrenics by 23. This is why authorities don't much like change to laws legalizing cannabis because ppl are dumb, and can't make the distinction between "medical" high CBD cannabis and high THC cannabis which destroys ppl's minds, and often leads them to stronger drugs such as opioids.

My cannabis oil made it a tiny bit easier to get to sleep, but I still had 4 - 5 wake ups for a pee, something still happening because whatever is left of my PG after so much EBRT, IMRT and Lu177 is a crippled mess, and I just can't hold a liter of pee like I did at 25, and average pee at night is 200ml, and because when lying down, things swell up and my bladder is sent a message I can't ignore.

But I could diluted my oil by adding a 2 litres of canola oil and its worth may have been $100,000, in 20 bottles each $5,000 for 100ml of "cannabis" oil . In grow houses the yield is 20 times what I got from my genteel plants, and a grow house might have 100 plants, so the profits are huge, and worth the risk where growing cannabis is still illegal. Here, possessing more than 25 grams means trouble if caught. but that's an easily hidden amount of oil to have. So I know about the dilution of cannabis oil that goes on with un-regulated sales of cannabis oil online.

Many ppl react differently to cannabis oil, and few trials or studies have been done with scientific rigour, but I did see some remarkable tests were done in Israel.

Don't get 2 stoned, OK?

Patrick Turner.

I don't feel so bad after pointing out to a recent 'newbie' that his magical regime was NOT an answer to all our prayers - while wishing him the best - we all need a bit of compassion when we're faced with some tough decisions ....

What works

From personal experiance:

1. Cannabis (rectal FECO) lowers your PSA probably because it puts the cancer to "sleep".

2. Cannabis permits me to sleep at night while on Lupron.

Anybody else have something that works?

In the 1990s I was on a mostly vegetarian low fat diet and extremely fit doing ultramarathons such as the pikes Peak ascent Pike’s Peak marathon back to Back. aware of my family history of prostate cancer and hoping to avoid the fate of my grandfather and uncles for whom surgery and in one case only alternative Laetrile treatment ,I began using the supplement prostata. in fact my PSA did drop some from close to five down to a little below four and stayed there for several years unfortunately it appears that my tumor was actually progressing when the PSA jumped up to five and the free PSA was very low the biopsy showed to Gleason seven stage 2b. anyone who relies solely on an alternative approach at initial diagnosis is likely taking unnecessary risks and may be allowing the cancer to progress rapidly. fortunately, what at that time was still not standard of care treatment (brachytherapy therapy combined with external beam therapy) provided me with an almost 20 year remission. I have continued to follow a rational low fat heart healthy diet and as vigorous exercise routine as I can tolerate despite this I had a recurrence in 2000 and after additional conventional treatment with tomo therapy and Continuing with a rational diet and exercise routine I am fortunate to experience another remission

I know the article I have linked to below is about pancreatic cancer and not prostate cancer, but I believe anything that "might" help with that terrible disease is worth considering.

I have already mentioned this article many times in these forums.

So far no-one who is anti-supplements has been prepared to discuss this article.

They have either ignored it completely, dismissed it because it's not about prostate cancer, or tried to deflect from it by insulting me.

This is a real case report written by real doctors about a real patient who had a miraculous recovery from terminal pancreatic cancer, usually considered the worst cancer of all.

The doctors actually give credit for his recovery to his conventional treatment.

However, they were open minded enough to admit that they couldn't completely dismiss the possibility that the supplements the patient had been taking might have helped.

They even go so far as to suggest it might be interesting to conduct a clinical trial of chemo followed by long term consumption of the supplements.

Once again I invite anyone to discuss this specific case report.

PUB MED case report titled "Unresectable Pancreatic Adenocarcinoma: Eight Years Later". ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

Best wishes

Dave

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Davek1200

Your article represents one data point for a different cancer than prostate cancer therefore it doesn't have much, if any relevance to this forum. It is an interesting case, but interesting alone doesn't transfer to a useful treatment for prostate cancer. We don't even have proof that this patient's treatment benefit wasn't entirely from the conventional treatments. There are a small percentage that go far longer than the median. Just because he signficantly beat the odds, doesn't mean the supplements caused it. It's another case of correlation vs. causation.

To be a valid, scientifically proven treatment, we need tests involving many humans with the same cancer that the treatments are designed to treat. It also helps to have an understandable mechanism of action. It doesn't matter whether the treatment is conventional, unconventional or whatever else we want to call it.

I don't see how you could conduct a clinical trial with a couple of unproven supplements and no explanation of how they are supposed to treat your cancer other than "It worked for this one guy."

Davek1200
Davek1200 in reply to gregg57

Thank you for your response.

Do you think that if something could be found that might help with the worst cancer of all, then that might help with other cancers too?

Do you think the case report might suggest that those supplements deserve more research?

Do you agree with the doctors who wrote the case report that it would be interesting to conduct a clinical trial of chemotherapy followed by long term consumption of the supplements?

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Davek1200

Yes, more research should be done on a lot of things but people shouldn't be getting ahead of the research and make claims about substances we know little about.

Davek1200
Davek1200 in reply to gregg57

Thank you for your reply.

I agree with you that more research should be done on a lot of things.

However, I didn't ask you if you think more research should be done on a lot of things.

The question I asked was...

Do you think the case report might suggest that those supplements deserve more research?

That is really a simple Yes or No answer.

The other 2 questions I asked were...

Do you think that if something could be found that might help with the worst cancer of all, then that might help with other cancers too?

And....

Do you agree with the doctors who wrote the case report that it would be interesting to conduct a clinical trial of chemotherapy followed by long term consumption of the supplements?

They should both be simple Yes or No answers too.

If you don't want to answer those 3 specific questions that's ok, but it would be nice to hear your views.

By the way, I have never claimed the supplements cured him.

I simply pointed out that the doctors said they couldn't completely eliminate the possibility the supplements may have helped and that they thought it would be interesting to include them in a clinical trial.

Thank you for sharing this. Indeed everyone on the APC HU forum should read this and consider it deeply regardless of their personal biases for or against “naturopathic” complementary or alternative treatments. Here is an inside perspective carefully considered with all of the details. Well worth reading and careful consideration.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it's gotta be a duck....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 09/26/2020 11:30 PM DST

I REST MY CASE TROOPS. Thanks G, it is long long overdue that we stop the kind of false prophets who come to this site and prey on our boys!!!!

NO more fraud, no more false promises of some magic cure, no more expensive pills etc. ALL of them not worth salt. When I was diagnosed and prior to gaining knowledge, had a quack prescribe 28 different supplements, promising me that he never lost a cancer patient. He took me for $400 a month for almost a year before I got wise to his BS. I later had access to his and 25 other alternative medicine types files, when I was hired to design and build a new clinic for them, as well as setting up the operating structures. I reviewed many hundreds of files and NEVER found a single case where a person who had been scientifically diagnosed with any form of cancer, that had been cured.

Most of their combined patient were DEAD, and from reviewing a number of cases, was able to establish an early demise for many of them.

David: THERE IS NO PROOF THAT HIS SUPPLEMENT REGIME CURED HIM!!!!!

So stop propagating bs, first and second, we are again, on this site, FOCUSED ON ADVANCED PROSTATE CANCER, so please refrain from dragging other cancers here, as it only confuses those who come here for information and support.

Davek1200
Davek1200 in reply to billyboy3

I have never claimed the supplements cured him so please stop pretending that I did.

I simply pointed out that the doctors said they couldn't completely eliminate the possibility the supplements may have helped and went on to suggest that it might be interesting to do a clinical trial including those supplements.

Are you prepared to answer the three questions I asked gregg57?

Or will you resort to more insults?

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Davek1200

I think you might find a more receptive audience for your supplements on another forum.

This is an advanced prostate cancer forum and most of the people here have a terminal, incurable disease. We are focused on trying to extend our lives as much as possible before we are out of treatment options.

I'm realizing by some of the comments that some on this forum don't really grasp or understand the seriousness of our situation. It looks to me like there are two different worlds.

Nothing personal against you, I'm just trying to explain the disconnect that's going on here. It's obvious that this stuff is really important to you, but most people here with serious life-threatening disease of stage 4 prostate cancer are not really interested in Essiac Tea or other unproven supplements.

My guess is that you will continue to get frustrated here with your focus on these things. There are other forums where there might be more interest.

6357axbz
6357axbz in reply to gregg57

Male Care Prostate Cancer Network is one such forum.

I agree. I am open to whatever works, but NOT on the basis of UNPROVEN or HEARSAY comments, most often from those who make money off the backs of the terminally ill!!!!!!

I think it is very unwise to give people false hope that some home remedy will cure them, which then causes them to stop traditional treatments, or even delay treatments that might otherwise, have given them more time.

Do you realize that comments such as yours, could actually result in men dying much earlier than would otherwise be the case.

It is cheap talk to state that one's supplements have kept them alive, when in fact they are taking the standard medically approved protocol.

Just for conversation, a major problem with most forms of supplment treatments that the the practitioners do NOT take sicentifically approved tests to determine what vitamin etc. one is short of, thus have no way to accurately determine how much to take, how often to take them, nor for how long they should embark upon the supplement treatment for. Think about it, they want you to put into your body an assortment of various drug compounds that they cannot monitor in any manner.

Until and unless the entire alternative community starts to undertake this industry in a scientific manner, wherein results etc. can be accurately measured, they should NOT be allowed to treat any cancer patient.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to billyboy3

Some people on this forum take SOC treatments and then try to hide or minimize that so they can claim their supplement/diet programs are what's keeping their PSA down or their cancer in remission.

One guy claimed he has stopped ADT for 8 months and his supplements and diet were keeping his PSA down. I looked at his profile and it indicated that his testoseterone was still at a castrate level. Another neglected to tell us he had an RP before bragging about his miniscule PSA drop with his version of unproven woo.

This kind of deception has happened more than once here, and that's just the ones I know about. It looks to me like a way for these people to get attention, but has no value to those of us who need proven treatments.

good point, but I hope that this is isolated and done out of fear and ignorance rather then intentionally misleading the boys!

Again one has to be careful when posting because the effects, however innocent may cause some to delay, stop or not get into some medically approved treatment. I consider anyone who makes a false post is guilty of a serious crime as the early death of man due to a false post, is certainly MURDER in my books.

Hi Gregg57,

Thank you for your response, I have nothing against you personally either.

My comment about people resorting to insults was directed at BillyBoy34, not you.

I see he is now throwing around terms like “murder”!

However, some responses to the PUB MED article I quoted sadden me on 3 levels...

It saddens me that there seems to be an inference that I have no right to contribute to this forum because it is only meant for those with advanced prostate cancer.

I was diagnosed with metastatic prostate cancer in December 2016.

A Ga 68 PSMA PET /CT scan in December 2016 showed mets near my oesophagus, aorta and groin.

I have been posting here for less than a year, but prior to that I was posting regularly on the Australian Advanced Prostate Cancer forum until it closed down and went read-only.

Here’s a link to one of my threads on that site (It’s even got photos of motorcycles)....

forums.jimjimjimjim.com/top...

And here’s a link to my thread on this site...

healthunlocked.com/advanced....

I believe I have as much right as anyone else to be on this site, provided I follow the basic rules of good manners and don’t abuse or threaten anyone.

It also saddens me that some members of this site seek to apply a double standard for what can and cannot be discussed. I have seen plenty of posts not directly related to prostate cancer on this site without the posters being reprimanded by other site members.

However, when I quoted a proper PUB MED article that suggests there might be even the slightest possibility that some supplements might help there is an attempt to “run me out of town”.

Could that be because that article casts a small doubt over the widely held belief here that all supplements are completely useless and anything that’s not strictly SOC is snake oil.

I found and quoted that PUB MED article, but I didn’t write it.

It was written by real doctors about a real patient and contains real scan images.

So if anyone disagrees with it, perhaps they should take that up with the authors.

However, the thing that saddens me the most is the lack of scientific curiosity about this particular case report, both in this forum and in the medical profession....

Imagine if the patient in the article didn’t take 2 supplements, but instead of his own accord took 2 separate drugs that were already approved for other conditions, but not for cancer.

Then please imagine he had a similar amazing recovery.

In those circumstances I expect that the medical profession would leap onboard and do proper clinical trials to see if the results could be replicated.

Maybe such a trial could replicate the results, and maybe it couldn’t, but I’m confident they would at least try especially if the patient’s results became well known.

So why might there be such a difference in medical curiosity because the things he took were supplements and not already approved drugs?

The patient still got better, and the doctors in the case report must have thought there were enough reasons to conduct a trial, or they wouldn’t have suggested it.

I can’t understand why so many people want to “sweep it under the table” and ignore it.

Surely medical science should leave no stone unturned in its quest to find a cure for cancer.

I wish everyone well and let’s agree to disagree.

Best wishes

Dave

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