The natural route to fighting cancer? - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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The natural route to fighting cancer?

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I'm new here. So I'm beginning my path to treatments for stage 3 PC. No metastasis. Generally good health for 67 yrs old. Got a 3 month ADT shot before I had decided to treat through a Naturopathic Oncologist.

Has any one on this forum gone after their prostate cancer with natural protocols? Before or after the usual treatment regimens?

It seems like most of the posts are about dealing with the side affects of surgery, radiation or ADT. Given the percentages for living with all those potential side effects, I'm going after something that will make me healthier to start. Rather than pull the trigger on something I can't take back. The ADT is bad enough.

Thoughts?

135 Replies
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I have no personal knowledge about this, but I did come across a site Natureworksbest.com by Dr. Huber which seemed interesting. There is a short video there which claims a 90% success rate. I believe the clinic is in Arizona.

The reason you see a lot of people asking about side effects of treatment, is because they are alive. People who thought that nature is beneficent and can be relied upon to cure them are dead and can't post on any forum.

Please read this:

prostatecancer.news/2018/07...

noahware
noahware in reply to Tall_Allen

"People who thought that nature is beneficent and can be relied upon to cure them are dead"

Well, maybe 15% of them are dead, compared to 5% who pursued conventional treatment, according to your own source: "Differences in 5-year survival were significant for breast cancer, lung cancer, colorectal cancer... but not prostate cancer (86% vs 95%)... the survival curves for prostate cancer had just begun to diverge at 5 years."

The interesting thing when looking at survival curves, like the one in the study you posted about the other day, is that "median overall survival" might indicate half the men in one treatment group are dead at 12 months and the deaths of fully half the men in another may not happen until, say, 18 months, but the fact remains that men in BOTH groups are dropping like flies. So if we go forward another year or two, perhaps only 2/3 of the "superior treatment" group are dead while over 3/4 of the "inferior treatment" group are dead.

So while there is a clear statistical benefit, it is not as simple as saying everybody who gets treated is alive and everybody who doesn't is dead, at least for prostate cancer. And there are of course many options in between "maximal" treatment and no treatment at all.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to noahware

Dead men can't post from the other side.

noahware
noahware in reply to Tall_Allen

Yeah, and the point is, plenty of those on the other side got treated. Better treatment is a matter of increasing your ODDS of surviving LONGER.

Those who happen to choose better treatments (knowingly or not) do not give themselves better odds of being immortal, but only of sticking around a little/lot longer. And those who do NOT choose better treatments (knowingly or not) do not all suddenly drop dead, all at once, right away.

With prostate cancer, it is probably more about the KIND of cancer you have. Some have the kind that will kill them (sooner rather than later) regardless of treatment, some have the kind that will NOT kill them ever, regardless of treatment.

While treatment is a matter of increasing your ODDS, some men start with very poor odds that get a little better. Some men start with odds so good they can only be marginally improved, if at all. The problem is in knowing which man one is. (Thankfully, with genetic testing and scanning, etc., we can make very educated guesses as the cancer progresses, or doesn't.)

Urologist Dr. Willet Whitmore: “If treatment for cure is necessary, is it possible? If possible, is it necessary?”

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to noahware

I think you missed the point. The OP thinks he can get better using natural therapies. All evidence is that such men die sooner. They may not incur the morbidity of treatment, but they incur the morbidity of non-treatment, which is objectively much worse. Almost all treatments that increase life also decrease pain and crippling.

noahware
noahware in reply to Tall_Allen

"The OP thinks he can get better using natural therapies. "

I agree that I don't think that is a very good idea, and he would be decreasing his odds. But I am not addressing that in my post, just addressing that it is a matter of ODDS and not a matter of absolutes as your post would seem to indicate.

"Almost all treatments that increase life also decrease pain and crippling."

They most certainly do NOT, if one is not experiencing any pain and crippling. That is a different argument altogether, because then we are talking about treating the SYMPTOMS of a cancer. That is a SUBSET of men with PC. There are MANY docs who support delaying aggressive treatment for less aggressive and asymptomatic disease.

The fact is, many men are without pain and crippling UNTIL they begin treatment. One can claim, treating early gives better odds of extending life, but the counterclaim is that it also often lowers QoL far sooner than might otherwise happen in the natural course of the disease. Since how that balance is valued is individual and subjective, we cannot say the most aggressive treatment is "better" except in the objective terms of odds of potential life extension.

A delay in treatment is not a certain death sentence, any more that the earliest and most aggressive treatment is assuredly life-saving. One philosophy is for men with no symptoms (and cancer that has not yet shown itself as highly lethal/aggressive) to pursue a "best-bang-for-the-buck" concept of sequential treatment, where we might start with the hope that certain mode that is less impactful on QoL still might have a big impact on PC progression. Not working? Move on to the next.

Other cancers, like pancreatic, do not give the luxury of time for trial and error that we are sometimes afforded with PC.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to noahware

You are completely wrong about that. You are entitled to make up your own opinions, but not facts. Facts are established by large scale randomized clinical trials. Here are the facts:

"35 percent [of those receiving docetaxel every 3 weeks] had predefined reductions in pain; and 22 percent had improvements in the quality of life. "

nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N...

Or, in the trial of abiraterone, it was found to lead to a 31% reduction in the time to opiate use, pain increased in 27 months with it vs 18 months without it.

nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/n...

Or, in the trial of Xofigo, the time to the first skeletal event was increased from 9.8 months to 15.6 months.

nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa...

All of them lengthened survival too.

What's more, the benefits of all those medicines were greater when started earlier. Your fantasies about only starting treatments when symptomatic are not borne out by the evidence.

noahware
noahware in reply to Tall_Allen

"You are completely wrong about that. "

No, you are completely wrong about "that," if referring to the "that" that I think you are. You cannot reduce pain that is at a level of zero. For example... "35 percent had predefined reductions in pain." Really? Those guys with zero pain had 35% LESS? Wow. That is quite impressive, but you'll have to explain how that works.

You are entitled to make up your own opinions, but not to make up things that I didn't say. I'll provide the actual words for you: " if one is NOT experiencing any pain." I asserted those men, like myself, do not need pain reduction. I never said certain meds would not delay the time UNTIL pain increased.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to noahware

Many men Do Not have bone pain...I was surprised that I had Zero pain and my PSA was 830 in May2019. Even who will have pain , when and how much is also an individual matter. Every individual has his own path on PCa journey...group statistics is just a vague , collective idea which may or may not apply to a certain individual and may apply to other.

lincolnj8
lincolnj8 in reply to LearnAll

I too had an 800 PSA and going on 3 years have very little bone pain. Been on Zytiga, prednisone and Lupron shots. Keeping physically busy and enjoying life. Plus a bowl of ice cream now and then.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to noahware

In the same way, if someone has perfectly normal bone density by DEXA and low fracture risk by FRAX...he does not need Zoledronic acid infusions.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to noahware

If you don't have bone pain now, and you have bone metastases, you WILL have bone pain if you don't have treatment. You ignored the fact that the time to first opiate use decreased - this would occur even if there is currently no pain. You also ignored that the time to first skeletal event increased. Ignoring facts is damaging to your health.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to Tall_Allen

Is it not like saying you do not have heart failure now.. but you will have heart failure some day...so lets put you on digoxin right NOW ? Even if there were bone mets..they have vanished with treatment and proof is BALP at 12 and clear MRI and CT. Why this hurry to subject people to strong meds ?

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to LearnAll

A more apt comparison would be taking medication for high blood pressure to prevent heart attack or stroke. A person with high BP may actually feel better without the medication (which is why patients sometimes stop taking it). You are mistaking symptoms for the disease itself. Most men who were cured of prostate cancer, like myself, never had symptoms. By the time symptoms appear, it is too late.

Clinical trials have proved that men who receive "strong meds" for metastatic PC live longer, and suffer less than men who delay treatment. Survival and QOL is why there is such a hurry.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to Tall_Allen

Even if we take your high blood pressure example. would you ask the person to lose weight and reduce salt intake first or straight away put him on 3 medicines to lower his Blood pressure ? Many people will need less treatment ...many will need more treatment. One size does not fit all.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to LearnAll

It depends on how high his blood pressure is. If a stroke is imminent, he better take some meds fast.

Likewise, a man with metastases had better pull out the stops. You and other "flat earthers" that refuse to acknowledge the science may harm yourself and others who believe you. Clinical data show that even a newly diagnosed man with a few metastases lives longer and stays hormone sensitive longer if he takes docetaxel, abiraterone, enzalutamide, apalutamide, and has prostate radiation. And the difference between early use and later use is huge. I guess you haven't seen anyone die of prostate cancer as I have, or you would take the data more seriously.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to Tall_Allen

There is enough data which says that continuous heavy ADT leads to castration resistance early .. in comparison to Intermittent ADT. Not everyone is a suitable candidate for intermittent ADT though.

Dr Nicolas Bruchosky, Dr Laurence Klotz , Dr Zhang and many other well known Oncologists have published dozens of papers about Intermittent ADT.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to LearnAll

This discussion is not about intermittent vs continuous. It is about heavy duty medicines vs naturopathy.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Tall_Allen

Naturopathy is best for the low-risk guys on this fourm who've had local treatment and are in remission or possibly cured. They can claim it's working while they sit on an Advanced Prostate Cancer forum and criticize the Standard of Care that others need to survive.

noahware
noahware in reply to Tall_Allen

"you WILL have bone pain if you don't have treatment"

I agree, for the most part. (Any men who might NOT have pain, who had alternative treatment and did NOT have medical intervention, would rarely show up in any study, anyway.) The question is: how long from the time the cancer metastasizes until I have pain, and how severe will the pain be? This cannot be answered except in terms of statistical likelihoods. In other words, not answered.

If I KNEW I was a man who WAS going to experience pain earlier and more severely, of course I would want an early and aggressive treatment. And as soon as we figure out how I can know that, I will act accordingly.

"You ignored the fact that the time to first opiate use decreased - this would occur even if there is currently no pain. "

And why did I ignore that? Because it has no relevance to my point. If one wants to FURTHER extend the time until pain or skeletal events occur, one could elect to have his prostate remove preemptively, perhaps around age 30 or 40. Mission accomplished, if prevention of future PC pain is exclusively the goal. VERY early and VERY aggressive treatment.

(If preventing the potential for pain arriving sooner is a primary objective, we should all be getting docetaxel or abiraterone or Xofigo immediately upon initial diagnosis, rather than FIRST being required to fail Lupron!)

With these meds, the time to first opiate use is decreased as a STATISTICAL artifact of a subset of men 1) having already failed earlier treatment, and 2) as measured only from the time the study began, NOT from the time the cancer actually metastasized. From THAT time, how many years did each man go, before a need for pain relief?

You never really stated what it is I am "completely wrong about" and exactly which facts I "made up." Please be specific, and quote my misstatements.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to noahware

I hope you never have to suffer the pain of bone metastases . Good luck!

noahware
noahware in reply to Tall_Allen

I fully expect I will. But the point is, inflicting some pain on myself now and lowering QoL is no actual assurance of less pain later, or of a longer time UNTIL more pain comes. It is merely a shifting of likehoods, and while that statistical shift MIGHT be relevant to a given individual, as indicated by results of trial, there no actual assurance it will be. Future pain is most likely coming to some degree for all us, whether PC-related or treatment-related or not.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to noahware

"Ignoring facts" includes the facts that those medicines increase one's QOL. I hope you are the exception to the the rule that you believe you are. But it sounds to me like denial and willful ignorance. If you want to damage yourself, that's your business. But why harm others on a public forum?

noahware
noahware in reply to Tall_Allen

"Ignoring facts"

Why are you putting that in quotes? You accused me of "making them up." Now you accuse me of "harming others." Still waiting for you to be specific. What facts did I make up, and what harm am I doing?

As for "ignoring" facts, I am merely adding the qualifiers to your facts. You don't like to qualify your facts, so I'm doing it for you.

I did not state or imply that certain meds CANNOT ever prevent pain or increase QoL. Of course they can... they do so SOME of the time in SOME men in SOME subsets of men with PC. It is certainly not a fact that they do so ALL of the time in ALL men in ALL subsets of men with PC.

You say "those medicines increase one's QoL" and decrease one's pain. Well, I happen to be "one." I would like my QoL increased, and my pain decreased, right now and over the next few years. Please suggest which of those medicines WILL increase my QoL and decrease my pain, and I will discuss it with my onc, because he is currently only suggesting meds that will COMPROMISE my existing and near-term QoL (with near 100% assurance).

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to noahware

As I have shown you, the time to first use of opiates increases and the time to first skeletal event increases with use of those drugs. What does that mean to you? The disease has a known natural history. While you may feel just fine now, you won't later. That is certain.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to noahware

You said" (If preventing the potential for pain arriving sooner is a primary objective, we should all be getting docetaxel or abiraterone or Xofigo immediately upon initial diagnosis, rather than FIRST being required to fail Lupron!)"

You are right (accept for Xofigo). Getting Abiraterone or Docetaxel at the start of ADT is now the Standard of Care for Advanced Prostate Cancer.

Besides increasing the time to pain, there is an increase in overall survival. This was proven in 3 recent trials (CHAARTED, LATITUDE and STAMPEDE).

I know all about cancer pain so I can speak from my experience. After a month of that, the side effects of treatment are nothing.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Tall_Allen

"Ignoring facts is damaging to your health." Oh crap. Now I'm really worried about our president.

treedown
treedown in reply to noahware

Are you saying we can definitively determine which cancer we have by genetic testing, scans, etc? If so what is the criteria for doing so I would like to be sure which I have?

noahware
noahware in reply to treedown

I think what I said was exactly the opposite... we can make very educated guesses, as the PC progresses or doesn't, over time. Since when is guessing a way to "definitively determine " anything?

treedown
treedown in reply to noahware

Your correct my apology, I did miss that. I suspect I could make an educated guess on myself based on what I have read but there's so many prognostic indicators and no clear way to weight them so not sure if they are even valuable. I am not sure which criteria are most important for determining which kind of PC I have. So any insight you have for making an educated guess I would be interested in.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to treedown

TreeDown, There is a way to assess how much aggressive your particular PCa is...Its not perfect but you can certainly get a rough estimate by understanding dozens of biomarkers and scan results plus your symptoms, family history, response to lupron, performance status and so on.

Even among advanced PCa ,there are subtypes any where from mild to extreme.

Every person with PCa do not need heavy-duty treatments...some do..and many do not. It depends. By survival curves, its only a vague idea one gets of length of life...each individuals has its own survival curve otherwise we will not have men like Magnus who are around after 28 years and men who left after 2 years.

I agree with Noahware's "best bang for buck" theory otherwise I would not be doing Intermittent ADT . I know at this point ,I do not need continuous ADT as all markers and scans are good. And I do not care about that imaginary lollipop of 6 more weeks of life.

Lets think as individuals and not as a group when it comes to which treatment is best for us.

treedown
treedown in reply to LearnAll

Its the dozens of biomarkers that makes it all the more difficult. Who determines the bio markers, is this something you determined your self or something a governing medical body has created? I have not seen anything come up in my many searches on line, not that I am saying that is conclusive.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to treedown

Treedown...A biomarker is level of a chemical/substance which indicates a certain fact. e.g. PSA is a biomarker. If you have PSA of say 280, it indicates the fact that chances of you having bone mets is very high. If you have PSA of 1.0, chances of you having prostate cancer is very low.

In the same way, bone specific ALP is another biomarker. If you have BALP say 85, your chances of bone mets are very high . If your BALP is only 12, you most likely do not have bone mets.

I hope you got the basic concept of what a biomarker means. A combination of various biomarkers and other parameters can give you a reasobale idea how aggressive your particular PCa is likely to be. Yes, its complicated.

Let me clarify more. If you see a man wearing deep blue uniform, he has a gun on his side, a shiny batch on his chest , and his car is marked "police"...now based on these 4 things which you noticed ...you can conclude that the man is a police officer.

So these 4 things will be called "biomarkers" But say you conclude based only on his blue uniform, you may be wrong as he might be a security guard at next building.

That's why, basing decision..just on one marker that is ..level of PSA.. is likely to go wrong. You needs to put all markers together to get correct conclusion.

treedown
treedown in reply to LearnAll

Thanks I understand what a biomarker is and am clearly aware of the most common ones such as PSA, but you mention dozens, so I assume you mean platelet to whatever ratios, and lymphocytes to something ratio. I have read about a couple of them and at this point have lost interest in travelling down those roads. It would seem a source of anxiety and stress I don't need. This is of course my opinion for me. It seems that once certain bio-markers aren't in your favor then your chasing ways to fix it. Frankly that is all too confusing and time consuming and I am at the point I am convinced I would get something wrong and could make things worse. Thanks for your time and explanation, it is clear you have a handle on all of this. I'll continue to focus on the things you stated above that I feel I understand (i.e. fitness, diet, contentment, reducing stress, etc)

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p in reply to Tall_Allen

That’s a fact. Also a great movie “ Dead man “ Johnny Depp..

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to noahware

Since stage 4 isn't curable, the best we can do is maximize our life expectancy. I'd be happy to take that extra 6 months. We have to choose from what we have available, though it's far from ideal. I wish we had more and better choices, but that doesn't mean I'm going to die sooner by choosing ones that don't work.

noahware
noahware in reply to gregg57

"I'd be happy to take that extra 6 months. "

Of course. But you have no idea if you will actually get it, because all "six months" represents is the median statistical survival benefit. Out of the men studied, how many get it? Well, we know by definition that nearly half the men are already dead as we approach that mark, so not ALL of them got the benefit!

And then, how do we know which men in one group might have survived longer if they had been in the other? So again, all we know is that we are improving ODDS of getting more time. And of COURSE we want to do that, but I think the point of the OP is, at what cost in terms of QoL? We know the costs (usually, premature aging!) but the benefits are undefined, because they are only PROBABILITIES of benefits.

In no way am I arguing AGAINST doing such treatments. Just observing that their benefits are known only statistically, not individually. As an example, how many men think doing an RP "saved my life" when the Gleason 5-6 cancer they had was just going to sit there and do nothing harmful? They conclude the treatment gave the beneficial result, but they cannot really know that.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to noahware

There are no guarantees of course with treatment, you just want to give yourself the best chance possible. That's about all you can do really.

In terms of QOL, treatment might reduce quality of life as long as you feel good and don't have symptoms. But once you start to become symptomatic the cancer is much worse than the side effects of treatment. I've gotten to experience that first hand.

As the song goes, we just have to hit it with our best shot. Fire away.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to gregg57

Yes....But if the bird is dead with my handgun shot...why I need to use my semi-automatic AR15 ? Best shot to me is effective treatment with least side effects.

Emphasis : "effective" and "least".

ron_bucher
ron_bucher in reply to noahware

5 year studies are useless for guys who want to live another 10+ years and die a better way.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p in reply to Tall_Allen

Side effects are the price that we pay for living!

Karmaji
Karmaji in reply to Tall_Allen

well said....

supplements yes

not alternate therapy

There is a time span between remission and recurrence....from few months to 40 -years....

docs wait for recurrence....

we have to stop castration resistance...

sure no markers for Senescent cancer cells and prostate stem cells....

nothing there...

In this phase right supplements , happy life style

disentangled awareness...call it mindfulness.....and sharing...

and we are alive till dead...

billyboy3
billyboy3 in reply to Tall_Allen

EXACTLY, RIGHT ON TA!!! WILL THE DAY EVER COME WHEN WE CEASE TO GET THIS CRAZY AND BASELESS HOME REMEDIES!!!!!!?

I have been taking vitamins and suppliments with standard medical treatments. I don't recommend going the total natural path.

The truth lies in the middle....its an extreme view that natural interventions are totally ineffective....but this is also an extreme view that natural treatments can cure prostate cancer.

The debates on the forum about this topic is because some people take the first extreme position and other people take the second extreme position.

Prostate cancer is an illness...a real illness. We need medical treatment but in order to make medical treatments more effective and long lasting with less side effects ,we also need natural interventions such as regular exercise, anti oxidant, anti inflammatory mostly plant based foods, keeping our weight low (BMI less than 24) and keep our immune system robust and control blood pressure, diabetes etc. Its a COMPREHENSIVE care which is the best path.

Karmaji
Karmaji in reply to LearnAll

well said...

living with PC....another way of life

I would recommend against any treatment that is not scientifically proven with Phase 3 trials, natural or not. One of the problems I see with many of the "natural treatments" is that we only hear anecdotal evidence and success stories. We have no way to know if these are even true and we never hear about people who it didn't work for. I have a friend in that category, I went to his funeral while I was on ADT with stage 4 prostate cancer. His family members were very angry that he refused proven treatments, but of course it was really his choice to make.

It is your choice what, if any treatment you pursue. The most important thing I can suggest is whatever treatment path you choose, monitor your cancer and change course if it's not working. That's something my friend could have done, but refused despite the obvious truth that he was getting worse.

Wishing you the best.

We had a person post here recently after the fact posting, if my memory serves, it was something like. I know TA I should have listened to you but I went the natural route now I have mets (don't remember if they were visceral or bone) .... Some posters here have stated PSA response to certain natural remedies, essaic tea, cbd, supplements, etc. It is clear that SOC does not work for everybody, but there's some clear obvious choices IMO. Catch it early if you can, treat early if you can. Treat with the best treatment you determine works for you, then follow that treament and don't look back or beat yourself up for that choice regardless of what happens, and enjoy life if you can in the meantime.

Bottom line....It's a crap shoot. Some men live many, many years regardless what route they take. Others go down quickly. Me? I do what my oncologists tell me to do along with healthy eating and exercise. Nature isn't going to keep the wolf at bay, you need stuff that nearly kills you in order to add years to your life. 4.5 years ago I was supposed to be dead. Monday my PSA officially dropped to undetectable for the first time in 3 years. Aren't drugs wonderful?

treedown
treedown in reply to Fran2020

To quote Captain Nesmith, Never Give Up Never Surrender

Good job catching this before stage #4 . I did the all out naturalpathic route from my dx on . I suggest you find a naturalpathic oncologist to guide you in the right direction. I follow Dr Michael Uzick in Tucson Az. We have a few natural followers here. But many don’t agree ..I did double adt and 8 weeks imrt five years ago. Been clear over 4 now. But still on adt .. .I had no choice . I stopped peeing . Urethra blocked with pc tumors. This caused me two years of hell walking with tubes and bags and a foley . I recommend not to turn your back on the conventional . Once APC goes stage #4 the odds of long term survival go down . Others will answer you . I welcome you .. You can do an all out health kick including diet exercise and nutrition. I did high dose 50 gram vitamin c IV’s for those first two years . I’m on a complete nutrient plan tailored for me .. Good luck 🍀

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Whimpy-p

Thanks! We'll be near Tucson this winter (waiting for the heat to go down) And I'll look up your NP.

Great tree ,nice slippers and stash my man . That’s a beauty ! I did the natural path alongside the conventional poisons that in my case were needed to push pc away . Just don’t let it go to stage#4 .... most everyone on this cite has had to do the conventional

As well .

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Whimpy-p

Thanks. The stash hides a scar and I love trees like this one. And I believe in the treatment I'm signing up for.

Hidden
Hidden

I'll restate the question, as nobody here has answered it. Who has undergone natural treatments and what was your result?

I'm not asking for opinions based only on limited anecdotal experiences, though I don't entirely discount them. But opinions are only as good as the truth behind them.

The doctor I'm using has documented almost all of her patients and followed up with them over years. She still counts a 90% percent remission rate with those willing to discipline their lives/diet. There are MANY stories of remission (healing) out there. Not only from Dr. Huber.

I respect all your opinions, but I still hold to my belief that our bodies were designed to heal themselves. We just have to counteract the dietary and environmental causes behind our disease. It's not about taking one supplement or medicine to cure it. It's about taking responsibility for our lives. We are what we eat......

I'm preparing for a 12 week protocol with 3 treatments a week. Not a magic pill and not cheap and not covered by insurance. So even if this doesn't "work", I can go back to the allopathic route. I don't think I'll have to. But if I can live 8 years with better quality of life, I'll take that over 12 years of shitty quality of live.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Hidden

Who has undergone natural treatments and what was your result? I'm not asking for opinions based only on limited anecdotal experiences.

This sounds contradictory to me.

I don't see you getting anything here other than opinions based on anecdotal experiences from people who have tried alternatives to treatment.

noahware
noahware in reply to gregg57

I think he means a second-hand opinion, as far as what he's not interested in. While an account of one's own experience would be anecdotal, it would not exactly be "opinion" but rather would be an objective statement of fact: this is what I did, and this is what happened.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to noahware

What do you mean by a "second-hand opinion"?

It just sounds so subjective to me.

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would base a treatment decision on subjective opinions of a couple people on a forum rather than clinical trials often involving hundreds of people with detailed data including failure rates, adverse effects, etc.

It makes me wonder when I read some of the questions like "Has XYZ worked for anyone?" So if three people say yes, then I try it? I hope not.

If your taking something that won't hurt you and still doing proven treatments that's one thing, but there are some that are doing unproven woo instead of SOC. Those are the ones that concern me.

noahware
noahware in reply to gregg57

Yes, I think he wants direct FIRST hand answers to the questions like "Has XYZ worked for anyone?" In other words, "I did XYZ, and..."

This is a bit different than hearing, "MY opinion is that you shouldn't try XYZ, because..." or "MY opinion is that you should try XYZ, because..."

And to hear input on a forum does not mean that is ALL anyone would base a treatment decision on (I hope!). Rather, it is one more source of info that may or may not be useful in decision making.

One reason people DO go looking for more info could be summed up by what my MO told me when I first presented with mets, which was roughly, "We will do med X until it fails, and then we will do med Y until IT fails, and..." So of course some people are looking for more, or other, possibilities!

Add to that the rare stories of non-medical remission, many of which are no doubt true. Never mind that they are one in a thousand, if that... it's like buying a lottery ticket: maybe it's ME who will be the miracle winner?

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to noahware

Thanks for the clarification. I think in many cases with alternatives, there isn't much, if any published data with human cancer patients. That kind of forces people to do their own research and just ask around and see who thinks that it worked for them.

Hidden
Hidden

Sorry. Hadn't read all the replies to my post. Like 33 or so before the first day was out.

Some of you have used natural, so I'll read those

Hi Chasingthewildgoose,

That is a nice picture – but before giving my 2 cents I need to know (judging by the size of the tree) are you a hobbit ? an elf ? or a leprechaun ? … LOL The treatment is different for each of them LOL.

Anyway, There is no question in my mind noahware and LearnAll’s advise is right …

The following is as close to natural treatment as you should get given you already ADT treatment.

First - In my opinion (and it is only an opinion – not medical advise as is with all others on this site)

You should avoid ADT at all cost if possible---- if you stay on it – it leads to CRPC in 95% of prostate cancer patients – usually within 2 years.... which is the last thing you want … CRPC is a very aggressive form of prostate cancer caused by the ADT … very hard to control... CRPC caused by ADT is usually what gets people in the end..

So why do they give ADT? If surgery or radiation doesn’t get ALL the cancer first try … then ADT is about all they have left – either by itself or in combo with salvage radiation orchemo.

Instead of trying something else - the drug industry has spent the last 70 years trying to make different versions of ADT even though it leads to the same end.

M D Anderson Dr.’s and several other prostate onc doctors have told me ADT does not extend over all survival at all… (but it speeds you to CRPC)

ADT given just before and during radiation, does help make radiation kill more cancer cells.

So, now that you have already taken a three month dose of it – I would make the ADT count – (for what little ADT is worth – ie. it helps during radiation it helps kill cancer cells) So I would choose radiation right away --- radiation of the prostate only unless lymph nodes as visible – I would not do them at this time.... you can always come back and shoot them later if needed...

In my opinion do as little permanent damage as possible – you likely have many years – and immuno therapy is coming along at warp speed --- it will likely get there in 5 or 6 years if not sooner..

Second – refuse any more ADT and immediately after radiation is complete – get on continuous super high dose testosterone for LIFE --. NOT bi-polar.---- do continuous super high testosterone...

In many cases the co morbidities caused by the treatment is truly worse that the disease. As you rightfully stated (you can’t undo them) co morbidities last for a lifetime and often you die from the cumulative effects of 7 or 8 years of that (ie. Heart failure, diabetes dementia etc)

Third--- Even with no treatment the cancer may not effect your quality of life for many years. Then if you need to – consider them... (at which time I am sure the options will be much better and more effective) Compared to those that throw the kitchen sink at it all up front – even if it helps --- for the next 15 years they will be living with all the co- morbidities since day one of treatment --- instead of 14 and a half with 6 or 7 years side effect free.

They have decades of millions of PCa patients that prove that with all the treatments --- they only extend life a year or so at best … compared to those that either refused treatment or like my grandfather found out about 6 weeks before passing on. They suspected when he was 62 that he likely had PCa – trouble peeing and had knots on prostate gland at exam. He refused to go find out because he said all his friends that went in the hospital never came out... He finally went after being stung by 7 or 8 wasps while he was mowing his lawn with a push mower at 86 years old. By then it was in his colon and all his bones. He just thought he was getting old LOL...

My dad was diagnosed at 63 he was radiated without ADT or any other treatment --- he is alive in Austin Texas --- 101 and one half years old born July 3, 1919

My uncles both radiated for PCa in the 1960’s one lived to be 100 and the other 97. No ADT – nothing.

As recently as 2016 they wanted me to commit to 2 years of ADT to do radiation –with no evidence of disease other than prostate gland – for that reason I chose surgery – it has changed dramatically since --- now – in many cases they only do 6 months ADT with radiation.. They would not do my lymph nodes even though at the time I was thinking be aggressive. They said that could be bad news – lifetime side effects – especially it it wasn’t needed. And it is questionable if it even helps even in nymph node positive patients.

High dose testosterone causes DNA damage and suppresses prostate cancer growth - july/2020

cdmrp.army.mil/pcrp/researc...

A safer alternative to treat aggressive prostate cancer found

thehindu.com/sci-tech/scien...

"Drugs routinely used for treating prostate cancer may actually be worsening the condition"

"A study shows why drugs used for treating prostate cancer which mainly functions by blocking the activity of androgen receptor signalling or stopping the production of androgen or testosterone is actually counterproductive in the long term. While both methods initially produce encouraging results, the cancer very often returns in a more aggressive form, and becomes resistant to these drugs. With cancer no longer responding to these drugs, it grows unchecked and ultimately causes death."

"For the first time, the study sheds light into why the FDA-approved drugs against androgen signalling to treat prostate cancer can backfire after initial success."

“ Several studies have already shown how stopping the production of androgen or androgen signalling through ‘androgen deprivation therapy’ at some point unintentionally helps the prostate cancer cells to become resistant towards this therapy and progress further to lethal forms. “

Androgen Deprivation Followed by Acute Androgen Stimulation Selectively Sensitizes AR-Positive Prostate Cancer Cells to Ionizing Radiation

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/268...

Use of Testosterone Replacement Therapy after Radical Prostatectomy Might Kill Two Birds with One Stone from the Perspective of Men’s Health and Disease Control – July 2020

jomh.org/index.php/JMH/arti...

high dose testosterone would likely work just the same after radiation as it does after prostatectomy if not better.

Androgen inhibits the growth of carcinoma cell lines established from prostate cancer xenografts that escape androgen treatment

High dose testosterone kills cancer !!!

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/185...

Androgen-induced TOP2B-mediated double-strand breaks and prostate cancer gene rearrangements

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/206...

Supraphysiological androgens suppress prostate cancer growth through androgen receptor–mediated DNA damage -- July 2019

jci.org/articles/view/12761...

Man 'cured' of prostate cancer after doctors shock tumour to death with testosterone

telegraph.co.uk/science/201...

Testosterone Replacement and Focal Therapy

Excellent Video

high risk patients (Gleason 8 and 9 with positive margins extra cap. Extension etc) who received testosterone replacement after surgery 15% had biochemical recurrence after 36 months – compared to the control group which had a 53% biochemical recurrence in 36 months.

youtube.com/watch?v=Re795wS...

Testosterone and Prostate Cancer: Is There a Link?

Good video

youtube.com/watch?v=_4Hd8JE...

Testosterone & Prostate Cancer or Challenging Treatment Biases - Is Nothing Sacred?

youtube.com/watch?v=wa-WwEK...

Hidden
Hidden in reply to George71

Wow. Nice reply.

Ranger, actually. What’s the treatment for them that doesn’t involve swords?

I hope to read your missive more thoroughly later.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Hidden

Adt was givenin anticipation of radiation. But it gave me some time to decide. It was a 3 month Dose that is almost expired. I hated it from the start.

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to Hidden

I was given a six month ADT injection on the road to external beam radiation. While contemplating that path I did plenty of research and chose HIFU instead. Almost 4 years later I have excellent QOL and I've been off ADT since that first six month shot wore off. Excuse me while I duck in anticipation of TA responding with his usual scorn and hatred of HIFU.

George71
George71 in reply to Hidden

you'll be glad you did -- especially since you are already leaning toward the most natural treatment as possible.

George71
George71 in reply to George71

"you'll be glad you did" was referring to reading the info I posted ... not taking the ADT -- but since you already have -- you can make it count by doing radiation and going on high dose testosterone for LIFE

Hidden
Hidden in reply to George71

Nope. Not doing radiation. At least not till after I’ve finished the plan. I have no metastasis at this time and the adt brought down psa from 24 to 7 in 2 1/2 months. The plan is to start natural treatments asap. 12 weeks, 3 times a day.

Davek1200
Davek1200 in reply to Hidden

Hi chasingthewildgoose,

I think I understand how you feel.

I stopped ADT well over three years ago after just two months due to suffering terrible side effects and poor quality of life.

If you click on my avatar you’ll be able to read my bio and some posts I started about complementary/alternative treatments.

You might also be interested in this PUB MED case report.

It's about a terminal pancreatic cancer patient who stopped his chemo due to treatment intolerance and started taking two supplements instead.

Unresectable Pancreatic Adenocarcinoma: Eight Years Later:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

One of the supplements he took was Essiac which is an old herbal remedy that's been around for almost a hundred years.

I'm the first to admit that there's no scientific evidence to show that Essiac is effective, but I've been taking it for well over 3 years and am very happy with my results so far.

Best wishes

Dave

George71
George71 in reply to Davek1200

Hi Dave,

Just some thoughts --- is the Essiac tea with cats claw? What is your testosterone level -- have you had it checked ? It may not have come back up much -- if at all... you should read the links I posted on this thread above about continuous high dose testosterone -- being as effective at killing PCa as ADT and does not cause CRPC. The videos are really good.

Davek1200
Davek1200 in reply to George71

Hi George71,

The Essiac tincture I use doesn’t have cats claw.

The bottle claims it has Sheep Sorrel, Turkey Red Rhubarb, Slippery Elm bark and Burdock.

I have never had my testosterone level tested.

Within 6 months of stopping ADT everything seemed to be back to normal, and has stayed that way ever since.

Thanks for the links.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Davek1200

Thanks Dave. I knew/know that the stories are out there. I’ll check out your bio.

I’ve known about Essiac for a long time , but only recently thought that it might be ME that would take it. blek

Sometimes I think most people who deny or dismiss the natural route really have no idea how many different ways there are to defeat cancer. Add to that the difference in people’s physical makeups, stage of cancer, etc, and the overwhelming pressure from the cancer care industry ( $billions made with the vested interest in keeping you sick). So once I got off that slippery slope, I saw clearly that I did not want or have to be on it.

Every occupation has its bad players. The naturalorganicvitaminherbalist are no different. The homewis exhausting but ya gotta do it

Another PC forum I got off of , ONLY talked about the aftermath of dealing with their cut, burned and poisoned lives. I’ve got a Heavenly home waiting, so I’m just trying to finish this life with as much pizazz as possible.

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to Hidden

That's not a very good PSA reading after ADT. Like others here I'd advise you to pursue traditional treatment. You do have a choice there as I mentioned in a previous reply. BTW my PSA at diagnosis was 2.7. It is now 0.5 after treatment and after stopping ADT.

2015 Gleason 10, started with castration then Cryoablation plus immuno injection AND ADDED in 2016 TESTOSTERONE Bi-Weekly INJECTIONS

excellent -- you are on top of it.

TFBUNDY
TFBUNDY in reply to George71

Great post. Just the way I was thinking, but you said it perfectly. Nice links too

stopc
stopc in reply to George71

What is CRPC?

treedown
treedown in reply to stopc

Castrate Resistant Prostate Cancer

Hi gregg57,

I am giving my opinion -- not to be construed as medical advise -- only an opinion like eveyone else should be doing. (my legal disclaimer)

As to the M D Anderson Doctors They said it in front of about 150 participants at a seminar in Houston Texas in 2017 and repeated it numerous times.... it is a well known fact .... read the articles I posted with the reply...

gregg57,

ADT doesn't just not improve Over All Survival -- it shortens it. You die sooner

"Context:

Despite a lack of data, increasing numbers of patients are receiving primary androgen deprivation therapy (PADT) as an alternative to surgery, radiation or conservative management for the treatment of localized prostate cancer.

Objective

Evaluate the association between PADT and survival in elderly men with localized prostate cancer.

Main Outcome Measures

Cancer-specific and overall survival.

Design

Population-based cohort study of 19,271 men who did not receive definitive local therapy for T1-T2 prostate cancer. Instrumental variable analysis was used to address potential biases associated with unmeasured confounding variables.

Setting

Medicare patients aged ≥66 years diagnosed in 1992-2002 within predefined US geographical areas.

Results

Even though 41% of the population (median age 77) received PADT, PADT was associated with somewhat worse 10-year prostate cancer-specific survival (80.1% vs. 82.6%, hazard ratio [HR] 1.17; 95% CI 1.03–1.33) and no improvement in 10-year overall survival (30.2% vs. 30.3%,, HR 1.00; 95% CI 0.96–1.05) compared to conservative management. However, in a pre-specified subset analysis, PADT use in men with poorly-differentiated cancer was associated with marginally improved prostate cancer-specific survival (HR 0.84; 95% CI 0.70–1.00, P =0.05) but not overall survival (HR 0.92; 95% CI 0.84 – 1.01).

Conclusions

Primary androgen deprivation therapy is not associated with improved survival among the majority of elderly men with localized prostate cancer when compared with conservative management."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

George71
George71 in reply to George71

International Society of Geriatric Oncology

"Use of ADT in combination with brachytherapy or radical prostatectomy has not demonstrated improved overall survival."

"In combination with external radiotherapy, ADT improves overall survival in men with locally advanced or intermediate and high-risk localised prostate cancer."

"Brachytherapy for localised/locally advanced prostate cancer --- Neoadjuvant therapy with ADT has not been shown to improve overall survival."

"Radical Prostatectomy for localised/locally advanced prostate cancer

Neoadjuvant ADT does not improve overall survival. Adjuvant ADT in men with N0 disease does not improve overall survival."

"No proof from randomised clinical trials that ADT in men with biochemical recurrence is beneficial. However, some men with recurrence at high risk for cancer specific death (e.g., Gleason score 8-10, PSA doubling time ≤ 3 months) may benefit from immediate ADT."

"Asymptomatic metastatic disease Optimal timing (immediate vs. deferred) of ADT remains controversial. In men who remain asymptomatic for a long time, ADT can be deferred."

"The risk of treatment with GnRH analogues needs to be assessed carefully in older men with prostate cancer. Well-recognised side effects include hot flashes, muscle loss, anaemia, sexual dysfunction, and gynecomastia, all of which can decrease quality of life. ADT can also increase risk for more serious and potentially life-threatening side effects such as metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disease, and bone fractures. These toxicities can appear after a short period (e.g., months) of therapy with GnRH agonists and are particularly salient for a senior population. All men receiving ADT should receive calcium and vitamin D supplementation and should have evaluation of bone density periodically; annual treatment with zoledronic acid or treatment with denosumab every 6 months can prevent bone loss in those at risk. Health professionals should also evaluate cardiovascular risk when prescribing ADT to older men with prostate cancer, especially in settings without compelling evidence for its use"

ADT doesn't extend overall survival in every case. But it has clearly proven to extend overall survival in many cases. It is particularly beneficial for Advanced Prostate Cancer which also happens to be the title of this forum.

So if you need it, it's a valuable treatment that can extend overall survival. And patients should definitely not avoid it if they need it because they will become castrate resistant later on. I'm castrate resistant now, but I'd be dead without ADT.

George71
George71 in reply to gregg57

I was specific -- I showed you the data and the links -- You insinuated that I was not truthful about the M D Anderson doctors (and several others doctors I have talked to), saying that ADT does not extend overall survival -- and I just showed you facts. You don't have to believe it. As for whether ADT has extended you life -- or would have extended mine -- no one knows.. as for the results of the studies above -- over all it does not extent OS , and in fact shortens OS.

If you read the article:

"Drugs routinely used for treating prostate cancer may actually be worsening the condition"

"A safer alternative to treat aggressive prostate cancer found"

thehindu.com/sci-tech/scien...

"Drugs routinely used for treating prostate cancer may actually be worsening the condition"

"A study shows why drugs used for treating prostate cancer which mainly functions by blocking the activity of androgen receptor signalling or stopping the production of androgen or testosterone is actually counterproductive in the long term. While both methods initially produce encouraging results, the cancer very often returns in a more aggressive form, and becomes resistant to these drugs. With cancer no longer responding to these drugs, it grows unchecked and ultimately causes death."

"For the first time, the study sheds light into why the FDA-approved drugs against androgen signalling to treat prostate cancer can backfire after initial success."

“ Several studies have already shown how stopping the production of androgen or androgen signalling through ‘androgen deprivation therapy’ at some point unintentionally helps the prostate cancer cells to become resistant towards this therapy and progress further to lethal forms. “

very informative -- as to what the use of ADT does when it does virtually nothing (or worse) for over all survival -- ADT only when needed to stop pain very late stage .

youtube.com/watch?v=u4TN9mC...

Goose, I’m new to this game having been dx’d this past March as stage IV metastatic. One thing I’ll share with you that one of my oncologist said before I began any treatments. I asked him what is my prognosis if I do nothing... he replied that if you choose to forgo all treatment you will likely be dead in 24-30 months. I’m not an holistic guy. I do try to eat a health diet, get exercise and pray for the best. I am in a standard of care (SOC) program at Moffitt Cancer Center in Tampa. I’m on ADT, currently receiving Docetaxel (chemo) and nivolumab immunotherapy. My life has changed, but so far I’m tolerating the drugs fairly well. I won’t be done with docetaxel until early December but will continue with the nivolumab and ADT until they become ineffective. I choose to look at this as buying time in the hope that some new break through comes along down the road. Right now my attitude is positive, but ask me in six months and I might have a different view.

All I would say is that while you are experimenting with potential natural cures you may be losing irreversible ground. I hear you and completely understand your reluctance to SOC. It’s no picnic but at the same time it is not completely intolerable. The human body has amazing ways of adjusting to the ravages of the cancer drugs we take. If you are starting from a relatively healthy life style pre-dx you should be able to handle the SOC regimen pretty well. I’m no athlete but years of health living have served me well on my journey so far. I will say of the three drugs I’m on, ADT (I’m on a monthly Firmagon shot) is the worst. It really has fairly mild side effects, compared to chemo, with some moderate to heavy fatigue and hot flashes that are are easily ignored after a while. But it is the lose of libido that bothers me most. I’m 68 and have been married to my wife for 43 years. I could not ask for a more loving and supportive partner, but I do miss the great sex we once shared. We have compensated with a greater intimacy I wasn’t aware was possible. I’m more in love with her than before.

So take my words for what they’re worth. No ones journey is the same, we are all individuals. I, and most everyone on this forum, will respect whatever you choose. Just know you can return here for some pretty good advise from some hard fought experiences that may help you on your personal journey. Good luck fellow PC brother.

“No metastasis” means it hasn’t progressed far enough to see it elsewhere with imaging. If you wait until a radiologist sees it, whatever treatment(s) you might consider are likely to be far less effective.

Do you know what they call alternative medicine that works?

Medicine.

I switched to a plant based diet, dropped meat, dairy, alcohol, artificial sweeteners. And I use certain supplements and off label meds. But I am also on Lupron.

All the info is out there and it is you who must sift through it and make your choices. I think healthy eating and exercise along with conventional treatment is best and I did alot of sifting.I do combine it with some so called natural vitamins and things that I have chosen. Do the best you can and live with gusto!

I put some of my treatment options ( in combination with a naturopathic 'treatment' plan) in the hands of others that are not part of the traditional approach to the SOC (Standard Of Care).

I wasted my time and money with them - PERIOD.

In the 'archives', you will find many who have gone away from the SOCs. In the end, very few have found the magic bullet. Some have regretted ignoring the obvious - although I would agree that there could be better treatments and outcomes that are in clinical trials, as we speak.

A great deal of ongoing research is beginning to show great promise.

Another FACT - PCa is not some generic disease that is similar / identical in each individual.

There are several complex variations.

I don't doubt for a moment that some supplements can help manage the disease.

I take several of them myself. (Zyflamend / Metformin / D-K3 / medical cannabis tinctures / some herbals for sleep - to mention a few)

In extremely rare cases, some claim a cure. Time is not always on their side.

You would be a pioneer (and dreamer) thinking that you have discovered a better way.

I wish you well on your journey, but respectfully suggest that you haven't discovered anything new, other than setting the table for a more serious, potential / eventual failure.

Your diagnosis may be a 'light sentence', with the potential for cure - that does NOT include you in the advanced aggressive groups who post within.

Of course, it is a personal opinion - I'm no doctor.

Steve Jobs is dead.

Follow standard procedures. Beware of supplements. Some can hurt. Badly. Some might help but research before you do.

A good attitude is the best supplement of all. After all, you do have many many years left.

My 2 cents

Hidden
Hidden in reply to ck722

I’m not Steve Jobs. I’ll pursue the course I’m on until I don’t. I’m watching, praying, listening, learning and trusting God to do what He wants with my efforts. I’m not doing this alone. My wife is onboard as well as many others.

I’m planning to feel progressively better as I go through this. Starting out feeling worse and not feeling better probably YEARS out doesn’t make sense to me.

But thanks for your comment!

My husband has an aggressive form of prostate cancer.. neuro-endocrine or small cell. He presented with this cancer he never had regular Prostate Cancer.

We have used nutrition and alternative medicine aggressively along with traditional medicine. It has made a big difference. We followed Square One cancer coaching program. I liked that it was less restrictive than Gerson. It was only last summer that we stopped juicing and I am not sure we should have but I think my husband needed a break. It is important to note that food is only one part of the equation, exercise and stress reduction, developing strong support system and emotional healing & forgiveness are also parts of the program. I really like Square One. For me and my honey it simplified things a lot. I still participate in their group coaching online sessions I feel like it helps us to stay on track.

I also had my husband on 3 oxygen, ozone steam saunas a week... I am not sure if the Oxygen or the ozone make a difference but they made him feel good and helped him get in a good sweat.

We worked with an integrative medicine doctor on the supplements, while he was in chemo so as not to have interactions.

I would love to hear more about the protocol that you are using.

In our SQ1 coaching sessions the coach, Theo, has seen and coached some real miracles(in my opinion) but people need to stay with the program. These coaching sessions are for difference cancers.. liver, breast, brain..etc.

I hope this helps. I am just happy that my guy is still alive.. they gave us 2 years and it is over 3.

Good Luck to you!

Hidden
Hidden in reply to softwaremom00

Thanks for your comment. Dr Huber uses mostly IV infusions with a base of high vitamin C. She adds sodium bicarbonate, hydrogen peroxide, and various other vitamins custom mixed for me.

Natureworksbest.com has a lot of info on her protocols as well as short videos describing the stuff she uses. There’s a lot on her page, so dig in and learn!

I liked Chris Wark’s philosophy. I just don’t think I have the self discipline to do his diet.

Although I believe do what works, you are spending a lot of money, time and energy in attempting to create some magic cure that does NOT exist. I suggest focusing and spending more time on LIVING LARGE while he is able!!!!!!

Hey chasing, see what you started............... BTW are you holding up that tree or is the tree holding you up? Oh yes... two more... your age? location? Answers are voluntary.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/24/2020 5:23 PM DST

Hidden
Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n

It was my first post! Who knew?

We’re holding each other. It’s a nice cedar on the Olympic peninsula near Crescent lake.

I’m 67. The wife and I are currently almost as far north as you can go in Idaho. Getting ready to move the rv down to Arizona. We work camp in SE Az and treatment will be near Phoenix

Anything else?

What about you?

Thanks for your response.....Better not walk away from the cedar or both of you will fall.... I am the court jester..... and I'm as old as the woman I feel...... BTW greetings and post here for lots of information. Phoenix is hot and full of ashes......but have fun....Also before I forget "Got Milk?"

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/24/2020 6:10 PM DST

Hidden
Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n

Got the moostash

j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden

and i got the van dyke too...........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/24/2020 7:15 PM DST

I just noticed your Icon which shows you with a mustache and a van dyke and a gorgeous child pulling on it.... Kids are great............. What's a tug here and there between Gramps and "the kid", they're entitled to spoil Gramps once in awhile....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/24/2020 7:32 PM DST

Hidden
Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n

He loves pulling hair especially long. Like Nonni’s and sisters

j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden

A real ladies man.............. (takes after Gramps?)

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/24/2020 8:18 PM DST

I believe Steve Jobs lived 8 years after pancreatic cancer diagnosis. 2 years usual survival time. Great post. Just munched a pizza, so obvious I am of no help with naturopathic issues.

Great picture. By the way, announcer of The Price is Right has "Come on down!" engraved on his tombstone. Just thought that was morbidly funny. Enjoy.

do NOT be a fool, you will ONLY get yourself more time by taking meds as prescribed by a medical group, not some witchdoctor!!!

You are having pains etc. because ALL real cancer treatments will have side effects, so buck it up, your doing well and still alive!!!!!!

Davek1200
Davek1200 in reply to billyboy3

Hi billyboy3

I suspect the patient in this PUB MED case report might disagree with you.

Unresectable Pancreatic Adenocarcinoma: Eight Years Later

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

Perhaps you might care to comment on that specific case?

Best wishes

Dave

billyboy3
billyboy3 in reply to Davek1200

This is a site reserved for ADVANCED PROSTATE CANCER!!!! There is NO cure at present for it, period, end of story!!!!! Quit spreading bullshit and harming men by propagating false news!!!

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to billyboy3

I'm with you, but I think we are wasting our time with these people. The moderators of the forum should be getting involved with the snake oil sales going on here.

Otherwise this forum is going end up being of no use to people who are in need of real treatments for their advanced prostate cancer.

The noise level here has been going up recently, by people self-promoting their own "brand" of bullshit while having low risk, no risk or some in cases no cancer at all.

Davek1200
Davek1200 in reply to billyboy3

Billyboy3,

Wow.

I didn’t realize it was against your rules to mention other forms of cancer.

I’ve seen others mention Steve Jobs and Pancreatic cancer plenty of times.

Are you going to reprimand everyone who mentions other cancers?

Most people consider Pancreatic cancer to be the worst cancer of all, so I thought others might be interested in hearing of something which “might” (and I do stress “might”) help with that terrible disease.

The doctors in that PUB MED article went as far as suggesting it might be interesting to include those supplements in a clinical trial.

Do you think those doctors were wrong?

If you don’t want to read the report that’s fine.

You could have simply ignored my request for your thoughts on the article.

Instead you tried to deflect by insulting me.

I am happy to discuss that PUB MED report with anyone, provided it is done in a respectful and logical manner.

Which brings me to your insults, in your words..”bullshit” and “false news”.

Surely you don’t think a PUB MED article is “bullshit” and “false news”.

Please quote the exact words that I have used anywhere on this forum that you believe are “bullshit” and/or “false news” so that I can have the opportunity to defend myself against your false accusations.

Dave

In

Hidden
Hidden in reply to VN6465

Gosh I thought I had advanced PC With gleason 8s, stage 3. Doesn’t that qualify me to be on here? I didn’t see any fine print to that effect. I thought there would be some encouragement here. Not a bunch of grumpy pant s

And really, you should amp down on condemning what you don’t understand. The evidence of healing, the truth of what can be done for the human body to help it heal is learnable. It really is out there. But not to the mind that refuses. It’s NOT the end of the story. At least, not mine.

Peace

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Hidden

I have a friend that would probably still be alive today if he hadn't listened to idiots telling him his body could heal itself with diet and supplements. Don't tell me about understanding.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to gregg57

Sorry for your loss. Really. I don’t know their story so I have no idea what they did or didn’t do in the natural realm of healing. But I hope you’re not condemning a whole system of medicine that was around long before the cancer industry took over based on one sad story.

As noted somewhere above, Steve Jobs lived 8 years longer than he should have with pancreatic cancer. Using a natural protocol.

And I’m not an idiot.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Hidden

The problem here is that many of us don't have the luxury to take risks with unproven treatments.

Steve Jobs had the neuorendocrine version of Pancreatic Cancer which is far less deadly than the typical Adenocarcinoma Pancreatic Cancer.

It also not clear how much conventional vs. alternative treatments he did. For example, he had a liver transplant although it's questionable how much that helps. I don't think we know enough about Steve Jobs to say one way or the other about his treatments.

What we are here, for the most part, are men who have been at the war front against advanced prostate cancer for some years. We have seen far too many men DIE of this disease and far to often we see men who attempted to thwart reality by failing to listen to our words of wisdom, instead jumped on some hyped up nonsense, which ultimately led to their early demise!!!!!

You can do what you want, what I and others protest against, is anyone coming onto this site and attempting to present BS, unproven scientific results and what this does it cause some men to delay treatment or to listen to the bs and think that it is real, thereby lowering the time they have left.

The time between some treatments doing a great deal to extend our lives, or by waiting, can lead to an earlier demise then one could get had they started earlier on PROVEN MEDIALLY APPROVED TREATMENTS!!!

So, yes some of us are grumpy, but we have GOOD reason to stand up to those who make false claims. You are doing well because of your medically approved treatment, not anything else. There is NO cure for advanced prostate cancer at this time, no matter what we do, that is the FACT!!!!

I will stand up every time I see someone post nonsense on this site, and if I save one man's life or give him more time with his loved ones, then I have done my job.

You, on the other hand, may cause some man to die earlier then he need have, but there is no consequences for the false statements that you have made, so far, because I would like to see someone charged with homocide when they make false claims!!!

Hidden
Hidden in reply to billyboy3

So I asked a freakin question and suddenly I’m sowing seeds of death? Get a grip .

I really sorry you’ve had such a long hard road. I would probably be grumpier than you.

But You’re kind of proving my point. I’m going a different direction because I don’t believe I have to suffer for years. I’m going to do protocols with a Dr who has a 14 year 90% success rate with advanced cancer of all types. Many went to her because their “regular” Drs gave up on them. After spending a gazzilion dollars of somebody’s money. Some died but almost all lived longer and better. It’s not nonsense . They are not false claims to the ones who are in remission.

Don’t believe everything you think.

I choose to get off that spiral slide before I take anymore treatments I can’t take back. If I don’t have the success I expect in 6 months, I’ll re-evaluate. But I’m pretty sure I’ll be healthier in the rest of my body, even if the cancer hasn’t shrunk.

But the little bit you’ve told of your story convinces me I’m on the right track.

Hidden
Hidden

Sorry 6 years

You just started the war pal, I and others have been at for some 20 years and are still here!!!! Have a little respect before you mouth off, when you at this stage, know nothing about how best to fight advanced prostate cancer.

Your nothing but cheap talk at this point, as have many others, only to find, too late in many cases, that those who chart and follow the path of approved medical treatment, ARE the ones who in fact, live the longest and BEST.

I have spent many hundreds of hours in research, care and involvement in dealing with advanced prostate cancer. My FREE volunteer efforts are on record, as is the results achieved. I am doing downhill, but have lived FAR longer than the majority of men with this disease.

I will be gone before you have earned your wings and with that, the right to have and then express intelligent statements.

I suggest that you go to a local cancer hospital and spend some time with end stage men who have little time left( and I mean spend some time with them, an hour or two a day for say two weeks, and after watching a dozen or so of them die, come back and let's see it you have learned anything because anyone can flap their lips, but you might, just might, understand better how your words can create havoc with the newbies who come to this site.

Men and their families need support and the FACTS as to what to do to both extend their respective lives as well as improved quality of life, and to better understand that they are now in a war that has no survivors, thus one must focus on living well with the time remaining.

That is in essence, what this site is all about.

Hidden
Hidden

No sense staying where I’m not wanted.

I hope your life gets better.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to Hidden

Please stay. We all have right to express our opinion. Do not let any bully boy frustrate you.

Some people do not have guts to even allow someone else to say anything which they do not like. The peddlers of SOC often get angry with people who believe in comprehensive treatment (medical +complementary) . But the forum belongs to all .

Please don’t let bullies drive you away from this site. I, for one, want to see everyones experience. We can all learn from each other.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Loves2golf

I think he'll be fine. He's going with a doctor that has a 90% success rate.

Loves2golf
Loves2golf in reply to gregg57

Sarcasm?

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Loves2golf

You and he both claimed that two doctors had a 90% success rate. I'm just repeating what you both said.

Loves2golf
Loves2golf in reply to gregg57

I have no knowledge of any success of this doctor.. I am open to hear of any success stories.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Loves2golf

OK, I think I get it. You are just posting claims that other people are making, but you, yourself have no knowlege of them?

Loves2golf
Loves2golf in reply to gregg57

What claims?

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Loves2golf

This is your reply "I did come across a site Natureworksbest.com by Dr. Huber which seemed interesting. There is a short video there which claims a 90% success rate. I believe the clinic is in Arizona."

I understand that you are not personally claiming that Dr. Huber has a 90% success rate, but you are posting what is really a rediculous, unsubstantiated claim in the cancer world and you don't see the danger in doing that?

mcgill.ca/oss/article/quack...

skepticalinquirer.org/2020/...

Loves2golf
Loves2golf in reply to gregg57

People can make their own decision. We are doing the SOC but I appreciate learning from others who are trying other methods.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to Loves2golf

I respect your opinion, I just really don't want to see people losing their lives like my friend did following these so-called "natural treatments" that aren't treatments at all.

His widow is in an enormous amount of debt now since insurance doesn't pay for this. They got scammed out of a lot of money by a quack doctor who made the same kinds of claims. My friend can't speak about it because he's not with us.

Again, spend some time with end stage prostate men, I mean real time with them in palliative care, volunteer to wipe their behinds, hold their hands and watch them go. There is NO cure for advanced prostate cancer at this time, no matter what a man does this the reality of the war. NO current treatment can cure you, all scientifically approved medical treatments can do, is extent the time you have left, give you better quality of life during most of this time.

my prostate group did extensive investigation into the so-called cures of cancer by alternative quacks. The proof is in your meeting some of these false CURES, so that you can see for yourself, as we did in over 450 cases, THERE WAS NOT ONE CURE for anyone who in fact had been diagnosed with any form of cancer, not that they thought they had cancer-snake oil salesmen at work.

Most of us on this site are responsible, experienced and knowledgeable. We try to provide guidance to the newly re-occurence men, or those who were too late out of the gate and their prostate cancer having already spread.

I agree that a healthy lifestyle, i.e. eating properly, exercise etc. will have a positive impact on your quality of life and even at this stage, could give you extra time.

However, again, no food, no supplement, no bible, no magic water, or anything presently known to mankind, will cure you.

aggressive treatment, however its side effects, will still give you the most time on the planet. That is a FACT. There is no question that many men are in poor health with all sorts of ailments and sadly, cannot take the side effects.

I again urge all men with advanced prostate cancer to focus on living their remaining years with the highest quality of life possible, instead of spending the rest of their days looking for the magic pill.

None of us know when our last day will be. Some of us have a better idea, if something does not get us in the meantime, that our prostate cancer, no matter the treatment will kill us. Why the hurry to die by risking additional life by going on weird and unproven results, and I mean results that can be

SCIENTIFICALLY MEASURED, both in the diagnosis and then in the monitoring of treatment.

The false prophets make lots of claims but CANNOT back them up with FACTS!!

Choose your path and follow it until your no longer satisfied with it.

Seek out opinions from all sources and decipher or customize them to what you think and feel is best for you.

Keep an open mind to all treatments.

Follow the most healthy diet and exercise regimen possible. An excellent source of advice and wisdom all based on clinical trials can be found at Dr Michael Gregor's website Https://Nutritionfacts.org

Realize you may make wrong decisions but own them and don't live with regrets.

I started my prostate cancer battle with an all natural point of attack, but capitulated to traditional treatments out of fear that they might not be enough.

One natural treatment I might recommend is the use of cannabis oil suppositories. I used them twice a day for 60 days and lowered my PSA from 14.1 to 11.2. I asked my urologist his opinion about that and he told me that a man's PSA with prostate cancer will never come down on its own without some type of medical interference. I believe it was working but feared the path I was following.

Your immune system is the most powerful tool known to fight disease, nourish it, and do not be afraid to supplement and strengthen it every natural way possible.

Good luck to you my man, you are braver than me.

You seemed determined to do this naturopathic method regardless so why don't you get it started and let us know how it goes.

I'm about a year older than you and I have much sympathy with the dilemma as to go for conventional or natural treatment of your prostate cancer. I was diagnosed in March 2019 with a PSA of 47 and a T3A tumour that was contained in my prostate capsule - just. I asked the question "what if I do nothing?" and was told by the surgeon that it would spread to my bones within a couple of months. I didn't feel able to pursue a natural treatment and so opted for 20 fractions of Radiotherapy and quarterly ADT injections (decapeptyl) which I will continue until for 2 years after the radiotherapy with the last injection in August 2021. However since March 2019 I've been following a Ketogenic diet and have stopped drinking alcohol. I sort of follow Dr Mercola's advice and have changed to having 2 fast days and 2 feast days each week to prevent insulin insensitivity.

I haven't really had any issues with the diet or medication apart from high cholesterol and hot flushes every hour or two. I was taking Allopurinol for Gout and have stopped this and also Asthma inhalers which I now don't need. Before the diet change I weighed about 158lbs and now have settled at about 144lbs. I cycle about 6-7 hours a week at the moment.

I feel that my inflammation has reduced significantly and this will give me the best chance of prolonging remission when the ADT stops.

I hope that this helps

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