Zometa and lupron were so hard on my Dad that we decided to hold off on the next injection. Has been off both since Dec 10, the date he was scheduled for his next 3-month injection. On diagnosis, PSA was over 1k, he recovered from pneumonia in Oct and a 12-day stay in the icu. Once out of hospital, we used baking soda, blackstrap molasses and the advice of a nutritionist. Also started seeing a Chiropractor that works with energy. Says cancer is not he dominant problem, but that low thyroid, parasites, bacteria are. We are working on all of this. PSA is now 4.1, continued to go down after lupron was stopped. My a Dad is much stronger and put back approx 25 lbs he had lost during the last year. He is having back pain, trouble sleeping, and excessive peeing and we aren’t sure if the back pain is from sore muscles (from mowing the lawn while muscles were weak) or what....seeing the oncologist tomorrow which is always scary.
Lupron, baking soda, low PSA - Advanced Prostate...
Lupron, baking soda, low PSA
This is dangerous. People who use alternative therapies die twice as fast as people who use standard of care:
pcnrv.blogspot.com/2018/07/...
Not what I’ve heard.
Sources matter. Read the study. You are putting your father's life in danger.
I do have to admit albeit somewhat skeptically that in conjunction with conventional treatments...baking soda seems to soften up tumour integrity.....
whyy.org/articles/baking-so...
I don’t like the prospect of adding more sodium in my diet and can wait for alternatives...which, I’m sure I’ll be proferred a multitude in suggestions....fire away guys
Another mouse study - everything works in mice.
"Until then, he said, patients should hold off on any DIY experiments."
“People should not run out and grab a bunch of baking soda and start administering it,” he said. “This is definitely a subject for clinical studies.”
I tired all of this stuff, none of it worked with me to slow down the psa
May I say patients have taken herbal remedies with great success. esp pcspes
Some patients are cured by voodoo doctors with "great success." The rest of us rely on medical science.
seems he improved greatly after quitting the lupron and getting on alts....
Well Hidden says her dad had Psa 1,000 before any treatment, and after an unclear amount of time since quitting ADT his Psa = 4.1 and going down.
But I have no faith in any alternative medicines. Certainly not for baking soda because its almost impossible to change the blood Ph because its one of the most regulated blood property. It seems like he was diagnosed way too late, instead of when dad's Psa was 3.0, which is 3 times normal for men of 60 who never have any trouble with their prostate gland.
I'd suggest PsMa scans to see what dad's real Pca status is, because the PsMa scan usually works well when Psa > 2 and < 10. I would not be surprized if dad had countless mets, and at the moment, ADT has got the Psa low, but that just means the Pca is asleep, not making much Psa and not growing fast, but mets could be quite large, so unless something is done to kill the mets and whatever is at PG, dad has a serious problem.
I had diagnosis at Psa 6, 2009, age 62, and they found Gleason 9, and after beginning an open RP they could not continue to remove PG because Pca had surrounded the outside of it and prevented surgery. I should have been given biopsy when Psa was 3 and I bet they may have found an operable Gleason 5 or 6, and most likely no mets. But no mets could be found at my diagnosis but I bet I had countless number but they were too small to be seen in any scan. None showed up until 2016 when I had my first PsMa Ga68 PET/CT scan.
They only found 2 despite keeping Psa < 6 while adding Cosadex then Zytiga to my ADT.
In following years, after more PsMa scans, countless mets appeared in bones and lymph nodes, but none in any organs. My bone mets grew alarmingly fast.
BTW, I found the way to keep side effects low with ADT was to cycle 220km a week regularly ( 11,440km per year ) and thus stay fit. Very few hot flushes, and I stayed strong without fatigue or weakness.
But after Zytiga failed I had to try chemo, and that made Psa go from 12 to 50 after 5 shots, so I quit that and booked in to get Lu177 from Theranostics Australia from their clinic in Sydney, near where I live in Canberra in Australia.
Psa was 0.32 last November, and I am also taking Xtandi. I have Psa test next Friday before seeing onco on Jan 30. I have ZERO cancer symptoms now. Biggest bone met was 1cm dia. Scans after 4th Lu177 shot showed no soft tissue mets and bone lesions healing, real good news.
If I had let my Psa reach 1,000 at any time without treatment, I think my Pca may have killed me by now. But I have lasted 10 years since diagnosis. I will need more treatment when Psa rises as it usually does after one or another type of treatment is found to work. But ADT and add-on drugs like Cosadex, Zytiga, Xtandi did not seem to kill many cancer cells, they just slowed progression down.
If anyone thinks ADT is horrible, wait until they try Docetaxel chemo - it is terrible stuff, with very long lasting side effects. And for me it didn't work.
But Lu177 was very easy to tolerate, I had hardly any side effects. I may need more in future if scans indicate it would be a good idea, and now there are FDG scans as well as PsMa scans to see mutated Pca that Lu177 will not kill.
With very big bone mets the Lu177 takes time to kill the mets because the active nuclear radiation only travels 2mm in flesh or bone, and the half life is short, so after each Lu177 shot, there is some mets still there, able to grow, but reduced in size, and after say 4 shots the mets are often almost completely blasted to bits if the met size was not huge. If I had not had Lu177, I'd be in palliative care now, relying on Fentanyl to kill the pains, and preparing to die.
Today I cycled 60km across town and back with no troubles at all. Docs are pleased with my health right now at 72yo. I have 12% cardio vascular risk, resting HR = 50, BMI = 23, waist < 95cm. I am slim 185cm tall.
Now I need to cook dinner or I starve, I am hungry,
Patrick Turner.
Curious, did they treat the bone lesions or were there too many?
I love to hike, a bit cold right now in New England. Keep it up.
It seems that where Psa is between 2 and 10, PsMa scans show up possible viability for Lu177 well enough, and in my case there were mets in pelvis and 1 femur as big a pea, or about 10mm dia, but also the scan showed many less distinct bone mets, without a clear outline, but they were there, just smaller. The Lu77 is attracted to go wherever there are mets because there is always a blood supply to wherever mets are located and the Lu177 and its ligand chemical will gather where the small mets are as well as the larger.
Chemo will find its way to wherever cancer is even if there countless mets and there often are countless mets, not just a few we like to think exist. Chemo works by damaging cancer when they divide to grow, but I asked my onco, "If the Pca is slow growing, then wouldn't the chemo be useless for most of the time?" He really could not answer why chemo would not work with so many cases of Pca like mine, but seems like you'd have to have chemo level kept at high levels all the time, not given in 3 weekly doses that are effective for a week. Maybe some cancer is killed during the week, but it continues to grow right after again.....
In 2016, when I saw the first 2 mets on the first PsMa scan I had I realised these could be the first 2 that became large enough to generate an image, and I knew there could be hundreds, to the idea of "too many" is not the issue. When mets are discovered by a scan then its better to assume there are many. I have seen scans of men who had many mets in nearly every bone of their skeleton. Some responded well to Lu177, some didn't. But I acted fast to get better treatment than chemo while my Psa remained fairly low, at below 50.
With Psa at 0.32 last November, and from last PsMa scan in August after the Lu177, I can assume that at that time, most of my Pca had been killed off, not just suppressed like what happens with ADT. So if my Pca grows back up, then it will probably take time, because the Pca is beginning from a small number of survivor cells. These may not be treatable by Lu177, and may behave differently to what has been killed, so the fight ain't over yet, and probably never will be until I die.
Meanwhile, I cycled a nice 60km yesterday. Its no good be fixated on what might kill you. I spent time in shed on electronics, and today, more of that plus fix a leak in my pool with Soudal sealant. So much to do.
Patrick Turner.
You are doing a good job controlling your cancer. I need more info from you.
I TOTALLY agree with TA. I only realized this now after doing a lot of research since diagnosed 7 years ago.
Please don't avoid professional oncologist advice and stay away from quacks (chiropractors, energy healers and alike). If you suspect other health problems please see appropriate physician. The improvement you're seeing now is due to the treatment he received earlier. Once it wears off you better be ready with something more substantial than baking soda and molasses, which works great for cooking and cleaning your kitchen afterwards but has nothing to do with treatment life threatening conditions. Best health to your dad.
The reason his PSA continued to go down after he stopped Lupron is likely because it keeps his testosterone down for a while after stopping. It takes a while to wear off.
His PSA is not going down because of molasses, baking soda or any other alternative treatments. Eventually, it will start going back up again when his testosterone recovers. His pain is also likely to increase as his cancer progresses with no treatment.
Please advise your dad to follow proven treatments. I had a friend die much sooner than he needed to because he sought unproven and ineffective treatments. A lot of people who advocate for these alternative treatments are in no danger themselves. Many have cancer that is more or less cured and is very unlikely to return no matter what they do. Your dad is not in this situation.
I am living with the side effects of ADT for 3 years now and yes it's not easy at times. But I am living and without it I wouldn't be. Don't fall for things that sound too good to be true.
If his PSA keeps going down, it implies that his cancer is still hormone sensitive.
Its true some prostate cancers are not that invasive. But still there is no way of knowing that up front. I did 3xADT for 18 months 65 years of age. I am now 84. PSA 5.Side effects were minimal and well tolerated.
Listen to Tall_Allen. He is explaining to you how to keep your father alive.
I’m sorry for your fathers suffering with these drugs. They can put us down heavily .The muscle and joint pain is common . Getting thru pneumonia is something ..How old is your father? I understand you wish to relieve his suffering . I’ve done the baking soda thing plus many other alternative medicines..But I’ve not turned away from the dreaded adt although I’m ravished myself by it . The good news how I see it for your father is that he has you being his advocate and loving him. That’s the best medicine. I’m sure that he’s proud of you . My father had pc too. I was living 2000 miles away at the time and unable to see him much as I would have liked to. Cherish anytime with him. Lift his spirits anyway that you can .....I believe in a lot of holistic eating and nutrients . If your dad believes that baking soda and molasses is , I do too , then so be it ..Placebo effect is real also . I feel the more good we put in , the better our chance at health...Please take fine care of self in all of this .. Scott🌵
At 87 he is amazing to withstand what he has.🙏🏼
I am MY OWN anecdotal study of one. I am NOT suggesting you replace any SOC treatment and anything you do should be done with your MO's knowledge.
The SOC in fact only promises APCa to be incurable. I am over a year PAST my 6mo use by date and currently still using both the SOC ADT Leupron AND my personal added complementary treatments of food lifestyle changes. I added MY chosen dosage of Alkaline Therapy to fight APCa (tolerated with my docs knowledge).
The only reason I chose to experiment with some web based method at the start of MY journey was that my docs were really dragging their feet with my eventual Dx of stage 4 APCa, fully metastized, PSA over 1300+, etc. In extreme pain for months, lost 55lbs, strength and stamina near 0, no sleep, really bad.
I tried a form of Alkaline Therapy for 12 days prior to doing ANY SOC and my PSA which started above 1300 and going up a point a day came down to 362 in the 12 days. At that point I was finally started on my fun Lupron journey so I could no longer separate and test the two independently.
I'm going to keep researching and carefully testing complementary treatments (with my MO's knowledge) that I believe holds some promise for ME.
Likely NOT a cure, (nothing may be), but is certainly adding to the QOL that I have left. Doing nothing but SOC felt like doing nothing to help myself.
Some treatments are not "scientifically studied" because there is no financial gain path to recoup the tremendous cost. That DOESN'T mean that some choices can't be effective for SOME of us when used in addition to SOC.
2Dee
"Once out of hospital, we used baking soda, blackstrap molasses and the advice of a nutritionist. Also started seeing a Chiropractor that works with energy. Says cancer is not he dominant problem, but that low thyroid, parasites, bacteria are. We are working on all of this."
All quackery. You are on a trajectory that is not unlikely to bring early death to someone.
Run from any chiropractor who purports to treat cancer.
Hey Hidden!
Cancer is a powerful disease. If baking soda and molasses cured cancer a large part of an entire industry, big pharma, would be out of business. I think people have turned to baking soda for longer than I have been on this earth. If ayurvedic practices and ayurvedic medicine cured cancer, chemo would have never been used.
An aunt who had a double mastectomy in the mid to early to mid 1960's told me in the 2000's that she took a teaspoon of baking soda daily to prevent flatulence. She didn't have radiation or chemo. She died in 2014 at the age of 99. She didn't do anything differently. She didn't become a vegan or make any other diet changes. She ate a balanced diet. Is there any connection? I would think that she had a good surgeon. I also think that she wanted to be here with her children and husband. Baking soda --might--have a slightly preventive effect against recurrence by keeping an alkaline pH and maybe oxygenating a little. Note that my aunt followed her doctor's advice for surgery. Had she not done so she may have not seen 1970 or even the late 1960's.
I have had chiropractic adjustments throughout my life. A back injury was judged to be a toss up as to whether surgery would correct it or fail and the surgery would also limit my flexibility. Between myself and a chiropractor my spine is perfect only needing an occasional adjustment. Your chiropractor has interpreted your father's CBC results and has diagnosed and suggested treatment for your father's cancer? I don't think the license covers that.
Steve McQueen went to Mexico for laetrile and a variety of other treatments.
allaboutmalignantmesothelio...
An excerpt:
"Frustrated by the results from his treatments, McQueen met with Dr. William D. Kelley, an orthodontist who had devised a controversial treatment regimen to cure his own pancreatic cancer. The treatment was based on the notion that cancers arose and grew from a lack of enough pancreatic enzymes."
McQueen believed in an orthodontist's claims who set up a practice, a clinic, in Mexico. It included some Gerson Therapy with the coffee enemas and so on. Be wary of your chiropractor's claims.
Diet is important. Twinkies haven't been found to have any curative properties.
PSA of 4.1--the Lupron is still working.
Please get his oncologist involved.
My best to you.
Currumpaw
A lot of this is Confirmation Bias. If it sounds good and matches what someone believes, it must be true. A lot of quacks out there prey on this tendency of human nature. It's really sad.
Good luck to him, I have good days followed by bad days because I have tried to do the old things I used to do when I was well. Try to get it thru his head to moderate what he does. Good luck at the doctors. 41 months and counting 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Continue with traditional treatments, the excessive peeing and back pain is probably the effects of the cancer. If you stop his psa will rise after awhile, 2 years in ADT and initial chemo and would not stop the lupron. I eat a balanced diet, very little red meat , excercise and supplements. Push through and research everything, I had a stack of research of a foot tall, everything on treatments and diet. Lots of information here and online as well as the American Cancer web site.
It continues to amaze and crush me when I read posts such as yours. NONE of the so called alternative measures you are taking, will anything to assist in effective treatment
Lastly, advanced prostate cancer is a deadly disease, which unless some other ailment or old age does, will kill him. ALL effective treatments are doing to have some side effects, that is the reality of the war we face to stay alive a little longer, which is why we do the scientifically approved medical treatments that most of us who are on this site use.
I suggest that you study them, and do some, no make that ALOT of research, so that if you are now the one making the decisions on what goes into his body, you can do so in an intelligent and logical fashion.
Sorry to be so blunt but I get tired of people putting up posts that are totally disrepectful to those of us who had died of pc and those of us soon to follow and those who have yet to join our ranks.
Your kind of posts also scare others and put fear into them over real treatments, and they also make our REAL medical providers jobs more difficult in their having to battle this type of false treatment regime in assisting their patients.
Hoping you get good advice from the Oncologist you are scheduled to see. I also hope you encourge your dad to be active in the decision making process on treatments that will effect his life. Just concerned about all the "we" statements in your original post.
"Hidden", most likely means the account was deleted.
Listen to your oncologist. I tried the baking soda black molasses bull. BUT I wanted to live, so I listened to my oncologist. Over 2 years now and still kicking..
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