Anyone stop Chemo early?

[pcfred]

After my fourth treatment out of 6 I'm ready to stop chemo, just don't want to go through this anymore. Numbers went down from 78 to 12.

[BerkshireBear]

Been there, it was a different cancer but the chemo took me to death's door three times that summer. Negative thoughts ran rampant, but I had lots to live for plus I had chosen an oncologist who himself had conquered cancer after being told to go home to die. Trusting him with my life came easy. So have faith, in yourself, in your team, in your future. Yes you're in a rough patch, they always smooth out.

[Bjry in reply to BerkshireBear]

Good advice Berkshire; I did the 6 docetaxel cycles and the last 2 were the easiest but we are all different. The chemo is clearly working, you are in the home straight with 4 down and only 2 to go. Don't stop while you are winning.

[judg69]

pcfred— Stay the Course! Find the strength - do it -2 more treatments will be over before you know it — Stay the Course! judg69

[Pleroma]

The last two sessions were the easiest.

Talk to your M.O. about dropping the dosage. It is your body.

But try and stay the course.

[RalphieJr64]

Stay the course bro. Chemo put me in ER three times. I gutted through the six infusions. You got two to go. I know it sucks, but just do it. Whoever says it gets easier is nuts. But it will get you to a point to start maintaining with other treatments. Ring that bell bro.

[NWLiving]

So what’s going on that makes you feel like you want to stop? Is this your first round of chemo? I couldn’t tell how many treatments you’ve been on and how it’s impacted your life..

[2dee]

My B in Law I thought had died with his first two, the others almost as bad. He chose to gut it out. Not sure I could have. He is mostly cancer free now and doing far better than expected. My experience says to stick it out...

2Dee

[MarkBC]

I agree with the others. Try your best to get through it. Studies have shown that six doses of Docetaxel is the most effective amount. I did it last winter. Once you are finished, the bounce back to "normal" is fairly quick.

[Hidden]

There is a HUGE problem with chemo - there is no even vaguely good criteria on patient selection. "It's in the Rule book, the patient can pay, so do it" is about as scientific as it gets. The end result is life for some and death (a few months later) for the rest. I cannot tell you what to look for in your body to decide which side of the line you will fall.

I bailed out after 4, as I was aware that my cancer was growing at an alarming rate and I was on my back going downhill fast. Getting to the loo was an expedition. Seems I was one of the 80% odd that should never have had chemo in the first place.

What was going on in my case was almost explosive growth of the cancer (I could feel it growing) as the Chemo trashes the immune system almost totally, leaving the cancer free to grow unhindered. At first I could not understand why my low PSA and what I felt were so different (and the Onco saying "See it it working! Have another round!"), but a few days later that PSA was doubling every few days. I ended with a lot more cancer than I started, in very bad shape (Vit C and Xtandi combo saved my life), diabetes, high blood pressure, and my body permanently damaged.

So here is the best advice I can think of for you at this dangerous time. First, delay the next round and see what your real PSA is (it is a measure of kill, so low kill = low PSA = trashed immune system). It may take up to 6-8 weeks for the PSA to increase back to the "real" level from the totally false low readings during Chemo and the recovery period afterwards when the PSA tends to rocket upwards (as the immune system recovers). If it has gone above your pre-chemo number, that is probably a good reason to stop. If it has gone down, and you are feeling OK (better than when you started chemo), another round may be the thing to do. There is always the option to use a reduced dose, or a combo with Vit C and a 10% dose (which is what many Chemo treatments should be in the first place).

After 23 years in use, Docetaxel is still a very inexact science. Good luck to you!

[Sriyantra in reply to Hidden]

Hi, thanks for sharing that advice. I'm feeling chemo is unsuitable for me and wanting to find other ways tok deal wiuth very advanced PCa.. done Lu177 etc. Can you share how you took Vitamin C as it's been recommended for me in high dose form. I'm thinking IV is the way to go but it's so expensive per treatment. Also cautious of making my own liposomal C as that would be a huge amount of phosphatidylcholine which could fuel the PCa massively.

[Hidden in reply to Sriyantra]

Vit C via mouth never gets anywhere near the levels of IV. I usually do 25 grams per week of Sodium Ascorbate in 400mls 0.9% saline - sometimes I double that up for an extra kill. Some Potassium tablets must be taken to balance all that sodium - cramps and missing heart beats will otherwise result.

The IV's on their own start with a good kill rate (perhaps 30%), but will fade over a few months down to about 5%. If the cancer is growing slower than 5% a week, that is great as you are still winning and the PSA keeps going down. If this is you, that is great as you can avoid most of the poisons and work on a real recovery.

To boost the kill of the IV's (trebles the kill - dosages dependent) I take one or more Xtandi capsules the night before the IV. You then have a weapon that can still keep ahead even if the cancer grows at 30% a week. Add Xtandi on a daily basis to bring in its "normal" androgen blocking function, but that will also bring in the Xtandi side effects. I keep experimenting with dosages for the cheapest solution that will keep the PSA down for a long time. Nearly 2 years later and that PSA has not gone above 2.75. In theory, I can increases doses by 300% before this combo finally stops working.

You may have to shop around for a good price for the IV's. Mine cost me around $53 a week, but I do get a nurse to call at my home to stick in the needle. A clinic job should be somewhat cheaper. Peroxide is also cheaper (and in many ways better), but needs a skilled operator. Some outfits add things like B12 and their "snake oil mix", to make it much more expensive. You would have to do none of this if your Onco was up with times and well versed in the use of Ascorbate in combinations (in these practices, just about nothing is used at full strength).

You could in theory make your own Sodium Ascorbate from Vitamin C powder dissolved in some water in a glass vessel, and add Sodium Bicarbonate until the Ph rises to exactly 7 - then put this into the IV. Mistakes with this are not an option. With the IV kit, saline, and the home made brew, it would cost under $10 a go.

[Shanti1 in reply to Hidden]

We make our own and administer at home, there is no need to use sodium bicarb as the solution is not acidic. We have never had a problem with vein irritation. Sodium ascorbate is mixed with sterile water (not saline). The vitamin C, and IV supplies probably cost about $40 per IV.

A study on PC and IVC was not encouraging as it did not show benefit (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl..., however, we use it as part of a combined protocol. We do not know if it is helping, but hubby is currently doing well.

[Shanti1 in reply to Shanti1]

I would like to add, I would never suggest anyone do this instead of SOC. SOC is proven, IV C and other alternative therapies are not or have limited data. We use them in conjunction with SOC as a personal choice to try to improve our outcome.

[Hidden in reply to Shanti1]

In spite of that Vit C test almost designed to fail, 8 of the 23 poor bastards getting Ascorbic Acid (it must have hurt like hell) did come out with a better outcome. The rest had cancer growing faster than the Vit C could kill it. I see you can buy Sodium Ascorbate, so you do not have to start with Ascorbic Acid and neutralise it with bicarb to make it. Can you tell us where to buy it (the price seems high - is it in liquid form as you buy it)? See also below.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I too will never tell anybody to just use Vit C to cure their cancer. There are many thousands who go the Vit C route when first diagnosed with relatively low PSA (<10), and they combine that with a raw veggie diet and smoothies, plus fix what caused the cancer to grow and lifestyle changes - i.e. Vit C is only a booster to the kill their immune system is getting. There are also many cases where they started at much higher PSA levels than that, and kept the cancer at bay.

Once you start on the ADT and other poisons, the immune system takes a big hit - it will get down to about 50% efficiency and slow down its cancer killing. Chemo is another problem. Thus, the idea is to use the natural tools (even aggressively) before you buy that one-way ticket.

My experience is that Vit C starts with about a 30% kill rate, but over the next few months will drop to about a 5% kill. That is still 1000% better than any meds the doctors have to offer - they only slow cancer growth and it is your weakened body which still has to do 100% of the killing. If the cancer is growing slowly, that 5% is more than enough to keep ahead of the cancer for a long time. But nothing works forever in this game.

Once the cancer starts getting ahead, then the Vit C needs to be used in combinations. The most benign I have found is very low dose Xtandi (that can boost the kill to over 30% again), but many oncologists will use fractional chemo (e.g. 10% dose docetaxel and Vit C) which gets good kills without irreversible harm to the patient.

There is no need to guess how well the Vit C is working, as long as you have a PSA that is measurable (many tests just say less than 0.1 and you do not know). Let us do some "rough maths" to illustrate:

Daily PSA 10, 10, 10 (IV), 11, 10.5, 10, 9.5, 9, 9 - the 11 the day after the IV is the "Kill spike"- about 10% kill in these numbers, with the final PSA down. This is the "steady PSA case" which is easiest to see what is happening, as you do not need daily PSA readings when the monthly ones are going down. But if you want to catch the actual kill spike, you need the PSA the day after. PSA decays with a half-life of 2.5 days.

Daily PSA 8, 9, 10 (IV), 12, 11.5, 11, 10, 11, 12, 13 - Here the base increase is 1 per day, and a 10% kill gets added to the 11 the day after (11+1=12). The effect is soon lost (down to 10 and back up to 13) as the base PSA is going up 1 a day. This would need either a bigger weekly kill, or a twice-weekly kill (a 10% a day growth is unlikely, but 5% is not).

You do not need big test runs if you can see (and feel) instant results. The feel by the way is increased "niggles" 12-18 hours after the IV which is a good sign - and how to get some sort of kill estimate when the PSA <.1. These niggles are inflammation caused by the corpse collection.

[larry_dammit]

I got tired of the procedure,but quite frankly I was so scared I wasn’t about to stop doing them. Good luck with the monster 🙏

[gleason9guy]

I totally understand where you're coming from, as I'm there now. But if you read on here you'll find so many others that wish they could trade places with you. Are you comfortable giving that place up and walking away? It's one thing to fight and be defeated, it's another to be winning and give up. Take your time and make sure you balance all of these issues in your mind and come to a decision in which you are confident.

[Garbonzeaux]

I'll second the "cut the dose" motion. That's what I did, and along with some IV fluids to keep me hydrated, I got through it. The chemo was effective and helped me get to undetectable.

[pcfred]

Thank you guys for the encouragement, I needed that. I'll try and stay the course.

[Hidden in reply to pcfred]

As a veteran of the chemo wars, I would also encourage you to continue but only if it's working. If your PSA is continuing to drop and the cancer is not progressing, then you have treatment that's working.

[whatsinaname in reply to Hidden]

Yes, that's the key.

ONLY if it is working.

Cheers, gregg57.

[Union98]

I probably have a different take on things, but it is always your body, your choice. I've already decided if I end up with cancer no chemo. I came close to getting physically sick every time my husband went through it. Quality of life is always the real issue. Depending on what your side effects are you could also talk to your MO about reducing the dosage. My husband had his reduced by 10% and it made a big difference in his side effects and he still had a great response to the treatment.

[Muffin2019]

Your numbers are going down, stick it out and keep fighting on, I want through the 6. Number went down from 156 to 12 then lower, mets to the bone in 8 places. The result was good, mets healing, psa below 2, ADT is working and looking at years instead of months and will continue to fight, too stubborn to give in, oncologist says my attitude was fantastic. Changed diet to limit red meat to 3 to 6 times a month, added supplements and continued to excercise and work part time. Good luck, do not give in to this disease .

[monte1111]

I had 8 cycles, age 67 then. Last 2 were a drag. Psa from 59.5 to about 7 and then Xtandi has brought that down to <0.1 (Took a while, but I got there). So many mets they were thinking of 10 cycles. I am like most others here: If you can possibly do it finish it out. Good luck, you are going in the right direction.

[j-o-h-n]

to pcfred:

I haven't had chemo yet.... but think of it this way... you're with this woman and 4 out of 6 means you're on third base... now are you gonna stop or go for the home run? Remember you could always slide into home base.... *wink* *wink*

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 10/07/2019 8:03 PM DST