'The food supplement that ruined my l... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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'The food supplement that ruined my liver'

cesanon
cesanon

When you see someone fabricating imaginary "faith based" supplement treatments for serious diseases such as prostate cancer, remember the answer to "what is the worst that could happen, is frequently unkown.

'The food supplement that ruined my liver'

Trying to identify the cause of Jim's liver injury, those treating him ruled out alcohol.

"For the last 30 years I drank maybe a six-pack of beer a year, no wine. So alcohol was not a big part of my life," Jim says.

They also ruled out prescription drugs - he wasn't taking any at the time - and smoking, something he had never done.

"Then my hepatologist drilled in to, 'What about any over-the-counter supplements?'" says Jim.

bbc.com/news/stories-45971416

60 Replies

Is there a clinical study to prove it was the green tea supplements? How much was he taking?

I’m seeing “possible” and “may” be a link. Infusions don’t pose the “possible” problem with the liver.

The link in the article offers more information: efsa.europa.eu/en/press/new...

“With respect to food supplements, the exposure to green tea components may vary considerably depending on the composition of the actual product and the daily dose recommended by the food supplement manufacturers/providers.“ efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.co...

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Advo__cate

That would mean the answer is known, wouldn't it?

Oh wait, I get it. "Innocent until proven guilty" when that generates the result you seek.

Advo__cate
Advo__cate in reply to cesanon

Yes, exactly. It goes both ways, drugs and supplements.

If one chooses to use the GTE then it is their choice. The article doesn't prove it was the GTE. Just as this article doesn't prove it did:

dailymail.co.uk/health/arti...

Consistency matters.

“The Panel considered that the liver injury in many of the case reports is likely due to idiosyncratic reactions.

Idiosyncratic drug‐induced liver injury (IDILI) is a term used to define those adverse reactions to medications and other xenobiotic substances, including herbal and dietary supplements, which are not clearly related to dose, route or duration of drug administration. Although not dose‐related in a strict sense, these reactions largely occur after exposure to drugs and may require either repeated exposure or exceedance of a threshold dose which is highly variable between individuals. The pathogenesis of IDILI is complex and not yet fully understood.”

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Advo__cate

"idiosyncratic reactions" that's sort of point isn't it.

Agravated when you are uncertain about varying potency and unkown additional active ingredients.

And it doesn't help that many of these supplements come out of China. Lol

Advo__cate
Advo__cate in reply to cesanon

Exactly, this is true about medications as well. We know ADT is hard on the liver as is many other drugs prescribed...just as one example.

I agree about China, even though my daughter lived their for several years.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Advo__cate

The Chinese don't trust Chinese suppliers. That is why they are willing to pay such high premiums for Western sourced products. Lol

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Advo__cate

The FDA process and standards decrease the likellyhood of unpredicted ideosyncratic side effects.

Supplements don't come with black box labels.

It is risky behavior to assume they are safe until proven guilty.

Advo__cate
Advo__cate in reply to cesanon

FDA needs to do a better job...it’s risky to take some of the prescribed drugs. We all know about weighing the risk/benefit.

It’s risky to go in clinical trials, ADT is risky on many levels.

We can do better, we the people should fight for better treatments that are not harmful to our other organs. “First do no harm”...you know what I’m saying.

Seriously, we know the harm that prescribed meds can do, yet we take the risk and take them anyway living with the side effects and possible permanent damage to our bodies (not all presecribed meds but the majority) for the sake of one disease. We all have a choice...Gotta run.

Have a great day Cesanon. Peace. :0)

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Advo__cate

FDA needs to require more follow up studies. And better side effects reporting.

But there is no running away from side effects.

Powerful medications will always have them. But if you know about them in advance, you can cope or change medications early, before they do damage.

Advo__cate
Advo__cate in reply to cesanon

Unfortunately, the ADT has exacerbated mild arterial calcifications to severe within 3 months time between Ct scans. It has also caused a “thick heart” (sigh).

choose your poison.

We are told it’s irreversible.

My husband (63) is now at a very high risk for a cardiac or stroke event. Maybe this is why most men do not die from the cancer itself but from some other event related to treatment?

Every drug I can find they have offer has this risk including an orchiectomy.

Supplements may be our only option here if we want to protect his heart while hoping the cancer remains in check.

It would have been great for the ADT or Zytiga or whatever would come next to keep on doing it’s think in keeping the cancer in check, but not at the risk of a cardiac event within the first year of treatment.

I still say we need to do better.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Advo__cate

That problem sort of has to do with aging.

As your pill load (number of meds) increases and you age, the side effects and primary effects start interfering with each other.

Not much you can do about it other than prioritize what is important and lighten the load on what is less important.

Advo__cate
Advo__cate in reply to cesanon

He’s not been on any other medication except for ADT. Both oncologist and cardiologist agree it’s due to ADT. The CVD didn’t show up until the second scan as mild and three months later it’s severe. The normal part of aging is that this develops over a period of years, not three months. The cardiologist told him this would not be a problem for ten years or longer, if at all before the ADT.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Advo__cate

Just chiming in. I just learned my heart was "not as flexible as it was when (I) was younger". Not a peep about the ADT. Can't run anymore.

Advo__cate
Advo__cate in reply to Hidden

It's in all of the literature. They know it but are focused on the cancer, rightfully so. One reason we have to advocate for ourselves or have one for us looking at all of possible adverse effects.

Part of the risk/benefit.

Sorry to hear that you are unable to run anymore.

I'm sorry to hear about this side effect you and your husband are experiencing. It becomes so difficult to protect our loved ones. We are continually faced with decisions. Protection becomes key.

I agree... we need to do better. These forums do help prepare me with questions and cautions. I do wish it wasn't this difficult. Looking for what can stop or slow down progression while not weakening the body or damaging an area of the body becomes the real challenge. I recognize your concerns and also recognize as a wife how fortunate he is to have someone doing the footwork you are doing. I know the work only too well. I will say, no matter what, it's worth the work, emotion, thought, concerns... from one wife to another... We often are working, what seems alone. We do the best we can. I'm in the trenches right now. My best wishes...

Thank you for taking the time to share with me such kind words, my soul needed to hear these words. I so appreciate your encouragement, it is truly providential.

My husband’s appointment is next Thursday & Friday so we will see what is going on in his body and what new thing they can offer that will not pose further damage to his heart.

Blessings to you as you care for your husband....the trenches do feel like a lonely place at times.

FYI - I can’t wait for my bluebirds to come back to my feeders, they were here last year during the time of my husband’s diagnosis. Such beautiful birds!

Sounds like undiagnosed salmonella poisoning, which of course is toxic for multiple organs including the liver.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/258...

Can happen with supplements and food from your supermarket.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to CalBear74

You would expect that by the time he had multiple docs puzzling over this they would have run a stool test among many other tests that would have picked up salmonella.

It has been widely reported for a number of years that mega-dosing on green tea extract (ECGC) causes liver damage. Almost anything, including alcohol, prescriptions (approved by the FDA), Tylonol, etc, can cause liver damage or death if taken in extreme doses. Common sense applies.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to MrEd44

"Common sense applies"

Yes, you would think. Yet apparently, for a large number of people, most especially those with cancer, they throw common sense out the window with respect to Supplements.

You will see on this site some very popular posters encouraging the use of megadose supplements.

And the funny thing is, with many supplements, you never truly know the purity or the concentration of active ingredients, from bottle to bottle.

And any supplement with the potency to do anything good, has the ability to do things bad, and has to have effects on multiple systems including side effects, and idiosyncratic effects on some people.

MrEd44
MrEd44 in reply to cesanon

"with many supplements, you never truly know the purity or the concentration of active ingredients, from bottle to bottle."

Philosophically I cannot disagree with your reply comments.

The unfortunate reality is we cannot even trust the food lables on one item of food to another either. I never would have thought there was Roundup herbicide in my grankid's Cherios breakfast cereal. And the reason it was aplied at harvest time had nothing to do with killing weeds! Whom would have thought?

Anyway, thank you for taking time to reply. Best wishes.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to MrEd44

Mred44

Yep. That one pissed me off.

And the new FDA and EPA appointed administrators, appointed straight out of the industry, are intent on removing what few protections we do have.

MrEd44
MrEd44 in reply to cesanon

Totally agree. That pisses me too!

Hidden
Hidden in reply to cesanon

Both are at their lowest points of actually protecting us ..They are doing more harm than good . I’m with Ron Paul . Toss all of these acronyms in the trash bin where they deserve to stay ....IRS is number one .. Does anyone believe that these governmental bureaucracies have our best health and welfare in mind? That facade has been shattered long ago .

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Hidden

"I’m with Ron Paul "

I am going to hazard a guess that you are part of the problem Lulu700. Honest.

Old folks voting for politicians that make them feel good, are basically selecting the politicians that claim to be making things better while dismantling and destroying the few protections we have left.

In the end we are getting the government we deserve. Politics is a team sport. Which political party have you been consistently supporting?

If it is the wrong one, then it is really unreasonable and unfair for you to complain when they do exactly what they say they are going to do.

No?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to cesanon

There is no honesty in politics . They are both wrong ones .. However It’s kind of judgmental to name me as the problem.. I don’t vote ..like Mark Twain said “ If it was important, then they wouldn’t let us do it . “. Anytime government gets involved with anything it gets broken . Ron Paul was funny .. and has said some crazy things ... mostly making the point how too much big govt sucks ..You are correct . The people get the govt that they deserve.. 100 millionaires in congress and a billionaire as the head chetto . ,sure ! They will give us what we deserve . Take care Cesanon.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to MrEd44

Dammed round up is in everything ..

ITCandy
ITCandy in reply to cesanon

I wish more time was spent discussing and educating members on the proper and safe usage and specific benefits of supplements rather than wasting countless hours and bandwidth trying to discourage anyone from taking them.

This specific case that you cite leaves so many unanswered questions as to what really caused the liver damage. The take home message that GTE in large doses can be harmful is well received, however calling for an outright ban of supplements on this site is unwarranted.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to ITCandy

Finally ! Some truth . Thank you ITCandy..👏

Hidden
Hidden in reply to MrEd44

Agreed MrEd.. Although I don’t know anyone else that has mega -dosed green tea.. Too much of anything is no good .

Itcandy

1. Everyone has different things to contribute.

2. I think you may be missing the point of this posting. It was about risky irrational behavior normally associated with adolescents whose executive functions are still developing.

3. "However calling for an outright ban of supplements on this site is unwarranted" why on Earth would you claim that I said that?

4. See, "setting up a straw man and knocking him down". Come on you are better than that. Please don't drag this conversation into the mud.

Thank you

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to cesanon

Oh come on. Your anti-supplement attitude is well demonstrated in previous posts. Don't tell us that this anti-supplement post isn't anti-supplements.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to WSOPeddie

Peddie,

You are missing the point.

Personally, I have, do, and will continue to take supplements.

Turning the taking of supplements into some sort of faith based religious activity, that's the problem.

This post is anti-ignorant use of powerful medications that don't require prescriptions.

Thank you

Hidden
Hidden in reply to WSOPeddie

Hahaha 😂✌️

to cesanon and attn. ITCandy,

Supple-mints that ruin?

Shit.... Does that mean I can't go out Trick and Treating next Wednesday? I just love York Pepper-mint Patties.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 10/26/2018 6:37 PM EDT

Hidden
Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n

You must wear a mask .

j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden

Glad to see you're up-to-date with my posts..... (Friday 10/26/2018 6:37 PM EDT)???

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 10/10/2019 6:41 PM DST

Hidden
Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n

I’m a little slow on this one ..As a kid I always wondered why that “ slow children playing “ sign was in front of my house .😂

j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden

LOL

And next to the jewelry store with a sign in the window that read "Ears pierced while you wait".....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 10/10/2019 10:44 PM DST

Article is not written by an expert on this EGCG. Am I--Might be. My first Job as a Research Chemist was with Lipton Tea, at their research Facilities in Englewood Cliffs N.J. I started there in 1964, while working on my Masters in Organic Synthesis, at night. By 1965, I had already authored 2 Papers on EGCG and EGC. I was the first to actually crystallize it from a solution of water, methanol, and chloroform--it was in the pure state as a powder, and I wound up with an off white crystalline form.

I would make a bold statement--that no one here or those that wrote that article knows more about EGCG, and its sister EGC, and the starting ring structure Gallic Acid, than myself. We did rat studies, on consumption, of the 3 above Molecules--and the weight ratios were such that you would have to consume a bathtub of Green Tea as a Human before EGCG or EGC, would harm your internal organs. That much water would kill you. Now from memory EGCG has a Molecular Weight of around 940--give or take. There is little possibility that it is soluble in water at 100 Degrees F. But at 212 Degrees F, you can get a small amount into your cup from a tea bag. Now the action of the HCL in the stomach on this molecule is such that it cleaves it all the way down to Gallic Acid, and a number of other by-products. It does not have much opportunity of entering the digestive system. Most High Molecular weight Molecules in Food Substances also cannot easily enter the digestive system, if they get past the stomach acid--they then are too large a molecule to pass into the small intestine--and it goes down the pipes.

Now those that sell EGCG, in capsule form--most manufacturers, will say on the label--DO NOT EXCEED One Capsule per day. As if you feed rats pure EGCG, there will be a problem, affecting stomach, and Pancreas.

So the supplemental industry is aware of the issue of over taking capsules that have a greater than 50% content of EGCG.

So In my research at the lab bench opinion, drinking green tea is fine--3-5 cups a day will probably make you piss a lot--the caffeine will do that.

And if you so desire to experiment with EGCG Capsules---make sure you have a reputable manufacturer--if concerned call them and ask for their MSDS Sheet and their GRAS certificate from the FDA. And do not take more than one per day, and always with a good load of food on board.

And out of continued Tea Research work, I discovered Theanine, and by that time I had already obtained my Masters In Organic Synthesis--and once elucidating its Molecular Structure---> synthesized it and wrote the paper. Today it is a top sleep aid--who knew--not I--I was just a chemist.

Do I use EGCG---> NO--but I drink green tea a few times a week.

Nalakrats

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Nalakrats

Nalakrats, I think you may be missing the moral of this story.

No one really knows how much of what was in the pills he was taking.

They were most likely made in China. They were almost certainly impure and perhaps adulterated. Especially seeing that in pill form, the only assay used on them, the consumer taste assay.... Is missing.

Why do you feel that everyone is missing the point of your post? Simply put, it's fear mongering. You're trying to get everyone to avoid taking supplements.

I know a guy that nearly died in ER after taking his first aspirin in his forties. I'd post a link to the article but it wasn't newsworthy.

I think about this a lot when I'm watching daily ads advising everyone to take aspirin for cardiovascular heath, sponsored by Bayer of course.

"Why do you feel that everyone is missing the point of your post? Simply put, it's fear mongering."

Yes. Exactly.

"Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread"

Those that haphazardly take supplements without knowledge of or training may do themselves harm-doesn't make them fools.

That's why I'd like to see supplements covered more on this site in a positive and educational way. Unfortunately, you know little about them except that you believe they are harmful.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to ITCandy

Itcandy,

Why all the adhominum attacks. Where do you think that advances you? It makes your assumptions and propositions look weak and lightweight.

Oh wait, they are. LOL

Here is the deal: just because someone on the internet claims a powerful bioactive substance is indicated for a certain disease or condition, doesn't mean that it is wise to source it from shady unreliable sources and self medicate with it.

Drug companies put similar promising compounds through clinical trials all the time. Most of the time they fail for one or more of many reasons. Even those that pass are often given unexpected blackbox warnings.

Powerful bioactive compounds often have powerful drug interactions. Modern witch doctors promoting the use of exotic natural bioactive substances seldom pay attention to this.

And here is the kicker, once you decide to use a supplement, you need to source it from a reliable source that can be trusted to assay it for potency and purity. Otherwise what you think you are taking, is not in fact what you are taking. Cannabis for instance has only recently reached a point in a few jurisdictions where that is possible.

Supplements need to be treated with respect and caution. My contempt for your aggresive proslytising is that it seems imbued with a certain adolescent naivety.

Either I am right or I am wrong. We all pay the price for our own decisions, don't we.

It's not about me itcandy. It really isn't. LOL

Paying more doesn't predicably generate quality.

Personally, lef.org the only source of supplements I trust and use. They assay everything their suppliers send them, and within the industry a lot of suppliers complain about the frequency with which they reject shipments of ingredients.

If left.org doesn't sell it, I won't ingest it. They sell some "out there" supplements. But if even they won't sell it, that is a red flag.

There is another company that sells supplements only through chiropractors. The voluntarily comply with FDA standards. Even to the point of using only round corners in their production facilities to avoid the accumulation of dust in corners. I know someone who used to work for them. I would trust them.

The FDA has strict requirements for facilities used to manufacture prescription medications. One of their many strict requirements is that these facilities are constructed with round corners that enable cleaning personnel to sweep clean the corners without leaving crud.

On the other hand your dragon blood or whatever it is called is most likely produced in a rodent infested facility.

Hey, but who cares. It's Nalacrats approved. LOL

Edited

"Please stop with the “Rats” thing- very disrespectful to someone who has spent countless hours helping others." IT Candy

Dear IT Candy

1. I mad the correction you requested.

2. What you say is one way to look at it. That what drives Nalacrats is devotion to helping others.

3. Among the many other alternative ways to look at it, would that it is motivated by narcissistic self-gratification.

4. Most likely it is motivated by multiple things. Humans are complex things.

5. You know it would be much more helpful to other members of this community if Nalakrats were to take the modest additional step to just cut and paste citations to the research he frequently refers to or implies reliance on. Perhaps you would be kind enough to help encourage him to do that? Maybe he would listen to you.

Nalacrats posts a lot of valuable information. He is certainly current on what is hot and trendy in the supplements community. But sometimes what he conveys contains BS and exaggeration. Sharing his citations would help others sort the BS from the other.

As it stands when he makes such strong claims, but withholds the supporting references and cites, it forces me to disregard what he says in its entirety. I would like not to have to do that.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to cesanon

OoOOppss !

“We all make our own beds” Itcandy

Itcandy

You are taking this conversation way too much to heart.

Though what you say is apropo.

You continue in your ceaseless attempt to mock and attack me. Well, all I'm doing is riffing off of you.

You want to shut me down, yet all you do is egg me on.

I speak truth. Some people like it. Some don't.

Itcandy, if you aren't comfortable with facts, and don't want to hear truth, why do you continue to engage with someone who will always respond truth, logic and facts?

Where do you want to go with this itcandy. Why not just leave it alone. I say just stop challenging me with emotion based argument, stand down, and move on.

Thank you

No offense taken. I don't get personally invested in any of this itcandy. And you are welcome to challenge anything I say.

But attempts to shame me for espousing truth, logic, and facts.... Will result in the exposition of more truth, logic and facts configured in ever more clever ways with each iteration.

"I thought the purpose of any round house was just so women couldn't be cornered." Adlerman

Har har har

Adlerman, shame you. Please delete your insensitive post. What's wrong with you?

Thank you

"I’m still laughing over that one. It wasn’t offensive to you in any way." ITCandy

Sure, how about if we use this forum to start swapping jokes about racial and ethnic minorities. You got any good ones ITCandy?

Oh wait, that's off topic spam. I guess we'll just have to take it down to the daily stormer.

Sheesh.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to cesanon

Ooops ! Here we go deleting opinions again . No freedom of opinion on hu . A select few get protection from deletion of our differing opinions .

Or IT, in the alternative, we could all just stay on topic, and refrain from substituting adhominum for substantive contribution.

Certainly mockery isn't a substitute for substance, but did you ever notice those most willing to laddle it out, are least able to handle it when it is returned in kind?

Why do you think that might be?

ITCandy
ITCandy in reply to cesanon

“Dear itcandy

I think you know what sn innocent joke is. In case not, this is an example of what a joke is not. Mocking something serious at the expense of another. Eg, this Senator's "joke"

"Earlier this week, during a debate between Hyde-Smith and her Democratic opponent, Mike Espy — who is vying to become the first Black senator in Mississippi since Reconstruction — the candidate offered a tepid apology for her remarks, saying she was sorry if anyone had been offended by the “joke.”

That is what's wrong with hazing and "joking". If you're looking for someone with a character flaw here, maybe try a mirror.”

Don’t PM me with this crap....eh.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to ITCandy

LOL, itcandy, that was a private message in response to a conversation you started with me. Why would you publicly post it?

You insisted on taking the conversation off topic. I put it where it belonged. In private.

If you insist on continuing to engage me in off topic dialog, please keep it to the private messaging. That is where it belongs.

Thank you in advance.

Hidden
Hidden

I’ve been called worse . Putting down anyone that’s in fear and seeking help is wrong . Even if they re wrong .. They deserve kind treatment ... but cronyism backing rude behavior is a plight on this site . Birds of a feather stick together .. I’m on your side of this coin amigo . Stay well brother ...

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