Estrogen May be The Cause of CRPC while on ADT

Holy Cow Nalakrats..this could be a really important study. They state that you need concurrent androgen suppression and estrogen suppression. While ADT can kill androgen dependent PCa cells it does not effect estrogen dependent PCa cells, and the estrogen dependent PCa cells lead to the development of CRPC. So, it looks to me that anyone on ADT should be taking three Arimidex 1mg tabs per week and you may prevent CRPC.

Gus

ar.iiarjournals.org/content...

16 Replies

oldestnewest
  • Now that makes interesting reading...

  • Dr Erik Castle previously looked at using Casodex with Raloxifene. Raloxifen is a "SERM" a selective estrogen something, reporting interesting results in the lab. But he has been awfully quiet lately.

    The trial reported below was (only) phase 1 - tolerability

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/artic...

  • I believe it was Neal-Snyder who posted a vid recently of Snuffy Myers, where he said that LDL cholesterol also feeds the PCa. I was dumbstruck. And, one other thing. I'm guessing my Uro shouldn't have given me a shot of Progesterone for my hot flashes, heh?

  • Gus/ET AL---You may have missed my earlier replies in previous post replies. So let me try to string some things together.

    First shred of evidence: I reported on a Study that goes back to 1978, and buried amongst Prostate Cancer Researchers today. Who looks at 40 year old studies? At Sloan Memorial Hospital, they collected over 100, my memory was about 180 complete Prostates of men who had died of Prostate Cancer. This was at a time before we had the PSA blood test. So for all your science adherents---this is what they did: Basically they chopped up the Prostates of each man into a mush. Then using solvent extraction, they removed from the prostate masses all extractable chemicals. They then injected the extracts into HPLC machines. This stands for High Pressure Liquid Chromatography. These devices separate each chemical component in the extract, and actually measures the % of each molecule found.

    The researchers were looking for any abnormalities, or anything that could tie the death of each Pca cadaver to some Chemical analysis, that might prove or verify a coincidence, in each of the deaths.

    Well low and behold, they found a common trend. Not a trend but each prostate examined and extracted and shot into the HPLC, found enormous amounts of Estradiol. That was a common factor to each Cadaver. A comment I read many years ago inside of this study by one of the researchers--said he thought by the level of estradiol, he was dealing with Female Tissue--not Masculine material.

    They at Sloan could not conclude that Estradiol caused the death, or that it caused Prostate Cancer---just that all who died of the disease had very high levels of estradiol. No further research followed.

    So where did this imbalance in the body occur. Researchers many years later had determined, and what we learned from Dr. Morgentaler's work, that men with low T were out of balance, where their estrogen levels were dominating their hormonal balance. It was then discovered, that men who upon examination for T levels, showing to be Low T, or candidates for replacement therapy, were evaluated for PSA from 1998-2005. All those men that did show low T and had normal digital exams, and PSA's below 4, were asked to be biopsied,even though there was no evidence from the digital exam or the PSA, for a reason to be Biopsied. In all those that Volunteered for the Biopsy---men between 50-65, and their were multi hundreds over the 7 years, 20 % of the men were discovered to have Prostate Cancer, not detectable by PSA or Digital Exam. They all had Low T in common/Hormone imbalance.

    So working backwards, It can be assumed that men with Low T, are out of balance, whereby Estrogen became prominent. In such there is a metabolism process, whereby estrogen causes the liver to produce more of the carrier protein for T, which is known as sex hormone binding globulin[SHBG], causing less free T results. Low levels of T, and higher levels of E, are associated with, excess body fat, sexual dysfunction, BPH, and Pca.

    So there is a need to convert the estradiol to 2-hydroxy metabolites. Making for safety. Also there is a need to reduce the activity of the androgen receptors of Prostate Cancer cells, that are looking for estrogen metabolites--which in this case is estradiol. And DIM can do that

    So there can be a lot of confusion when reading about T, DHT, SHBG, Estrogen, and trying to figure what is what. Let me put it this way when My New Oncologist---Head of Prostate Cancer Research at the Levine Cancer Institute and I were going over my drugs and my supplemental program, When he asked why I was taking Proscar, Avodart, and DIM[Di-Indole methane]---I answered I did not want one molecule of Estradiol in my body---he just nodded and said yes! Dim, will not allow Estrogen, to Metabolize to Estradiol. It will direct it to 2-hydroxy metabolites[2 of them]. And the Proscar/Avodart routine, prevents for the most part, the conversion of small amounts of T, even with men on ADT, to be Metabolized to DHT. And DHT, can be Metabolized to Some estrogen.

    So in my opinion, if on ADT, you would want to block the receptors of Pca cells, from latching on to T, DHT, and Estradiol. Or what I call a total Blockade. This does not mean the Pca cells will die and starve--as some do---these little bastards have other ways to get around blockades, using other bio-synthesis processes they possess. Gus likes Arimidex, I like Dim---not any kind, but the Micro encapsulated form from Bioresponse in Colorado. Find Dr. Zeligs Paper of last year at either NCI, or NIH. I forgot where it is---But if you call the 800 # for Bioresponse, they will tell you where to locate the peer reviewed paper.

    Nalakrats

  • My oncologist wrote (after I asked him about the AR/ER axis) "...we do offer antiestrogens during ADT, but more so to curb gynecomastia risk.

    Antiestrogens also have risks themselves from arthralgias, thrombosis, stroke,

    heart attack etc so this has to be weighed with this theoretic benefit."

  • I can believe possibilities related to Arthritic Issues---But I do not agree with your Oncologist. I will Go with the Head of Prostate Cancer Oncology Research at the Levine Cancer Institute--Who happens to be my Oncologist. There are risks with any medications. One must weigh and decide

    If you can find the Peer reviewed Papers of Dr. Zeligs of Colorado, published at the NCI, or NIH, I thing you might find 25 years of research as to this area of Medical Science.

    The biggest natural foods supplying Antiestrogens, are broccoli, cabbage , Brussel spouts, supplying interesting doses of Di-Indole Methane.

    Nalakrats

  • While thinking about your intention about avoiding phytoestrogens in your diet, I encountered the following dilemma:

    I agree, soy is only fit to feed to hogs. However, what about our diets in general? I assume that you are probably on a Mediterranean--Vegetarian type of diet and try to avoid red meat, including the "white" one, pork. You probably want to limit your carbs because they drive up insulin and insulin, well you get the picture. This leaves you for your source of protein, chicken or fish. Fine so far, but because you want to avoid all phytoestrogens, or most, you probably want to stay away from beans and lentils, good sources of fiber and protein. Also nuts and seeds are sources of phytoestrogens (I have heard them referred to as "mini uteruses"!) as are oats, barley, yams, pomegranates, coffee, ad nauseam. In short, in any sane diet, there is no avoiding phytoestrogens, UNLESS, one wants to go on the so-called "Paleolithic Diet" which is fraught with its own serious concerns.

  • Well I avoid the obvious. But no I am on a high Protein, low carb. Eating routine. It is very close to an Adkins diet. I am a Jew so I eat Kosher. No pork, no shellfish. I follow God's words in the Torah, as to eating.

    I am an ex-body builder--was for 45 years, and I continue my routine in the gym, which requires me to have high protein foods, or I add protein from 30 Gram, Protein Bars--protein from Whey Isolate, not Soy. Body weight and profile has not changed due to Pca, and my treatments which usually affects men negatively.

    In the Morning I typically have my dinner meal, and if light in protein I add Whey Isolate Protein Powder to Almond Milk, and down my morning supplements. The Breakfast has so much protein, I do not feel a need to eat until dinner. Dinner gets light to salads, and fruits. After the Gym in the afternoon I do a 30 gram or 17 gram protein bar.

    Yes I have red meat maybe once a week. No sugar added products, no breads, and pasta once every 2 weeks. So Chicken, turkey, and fish[Salmon Mostly]--dominates my food protein.

    I have snacks and they are usually almonds, and walnuts, with fruit. No Dairy---maybe I have a slice of cheese in a salad once every 2 weeks.

    Key for me is max protein/and my 20 cancer fighting supplements--at least those that show some positive results in test tubes, and nude mice. My routine is very complex.

    But so far it is working in conjunction with my Quintuple Blockade, which one of the blockers, does not allow the formation of Estradiol, from Estrogen's that may get into the blood.

    Nalakrats

  • Nal,

    you take your supplements once a day in the morning....I have been taking mine twice a day...morning and evening except for a few like boron, selenium and VIT D

    Gus

  • My program is so complicated I take supplements:

    1] Before Breakfast--multiple Program

    2] After Breakfast

    3] Before Workouts

    4] After Workouts

    5] Between Meals

    6] After Dinner

    7] Before Bed

    Some things on an empty Stomach some with food, or Protein. I spend basically all day taking stuff--And I have to save time to take my Meds.

    Nalakrats

  • PCRI has its mid-year meeting on Saturday, March 25th. Since they are taking questions, I have submitted a question regarding this AR-ER issue. I'm sure they will address the question. I'm not attending, but I will try to find out how the question was answered.

    Obviously, your current regimen of supplements and medication has been successful for you. Of course, you should remain on it. My conclusion about Pca is that (1) the prostate is a very cranky organ; (2) According to the research, it doesn't like meat (especially red); it doesn't like milk products; it doesn't like fat, especially animal but vegetable oils, as well (because of their volatility); it doesn't like sugar, and I have even read, it doesn't care for too much protein, either; (2) It's very idiosyncratic--one reason for the poor response to medication. That would probably hold true for diets, as well.

    My oncologists are at one of the premier practices on the West Coast and, as far as I know, they are all vegetarians. The only known in vivo study that used live people and not rats or test tubes to achieve PSA reduction was done by Dean Ornish and this was on a vegetarian, low fat diet. The only people I know (and have heard about) who have managed to drive down their PSAs through diet practice CR--which I would find almost impossible to do.

  • And vegetarians miss some important aminos--there is no Taurine--the main Amino that comes from Meat. It is very important for heart health. I needed it to cure A-Fib, with Arginine--also there is a lack of Vitamin B-12---which I need for Large Red Blood cells.

    I agree with the no sugar no dairy approach--but one thing my Doctors say is working for me as a 73 year old---is the body of a weight lifting 30 year old.

    So I have disagreed with doctors over nutrition for 50 years. All the benefits I might get from being a Vegan, whatever the substances, I get from supplements--about 75 pills a day. Also the no no's from meat/fat, I offset with Mega doses of EFA, Sunflower Lecithin, Pumpkin Seed oil Extract, And 10 other oils of Chinese herbs, plus I chelate bad fats and other unwanted things.

    I respect your doctors, and hope you get your question asked. My 50 years in Diet and Nutrition, with 6 publications, makes me at least the peer of a half dozen Doctors---who only take one course in Nutrition, on the way to their MD.

    Besides, until you know your Pathology and your Mutations, as I know mine exactly---My nutritional needs will be different from someone who has a different set of Mutations, and a different Pathology.

    What that means is than my cancers receptors are not the same as yours, I may have more androgen, less estrogen receptors, more or less that use sugar for food, and more or less for those that can take cholesterol, and convert to testosterone. I think these bastards, average 93 receptors---thus why certain drugs foods and supplements will all react differently, on the margins, and in the main arena.

    What many do not recognize---the pathologies, and mutations drive the drug treatments, the supplemental negatives, and positives, and overall diet. One thing seems to be the same for all cancers--is to stop anything with sugar, or can make sugar easily like bread and pasta---Dairy has a similar, story.

    Except the protein from Dairy---Whey, and Casein.

    Anyway good luck on your PCRI adventure--I love this group---they were very helpful to me when my adventure started.

    Nalakrats[another Pca, a h---]

  • Interesting that I have been on high dose estradiol for more than half the almost 11 years I have survived with Gleason 10 , stage 4 prostate cancer with a bpsa of 148 and I am still alive. I think in the past perhaps when these studies were done many men were on some form of estrogen therapy. I do believe estrogen can have a withdrawl effect and can begin to feed the cancer as I think it did with me

  • Dan, how high is high and have you been on patches? Has your protocol intermittent or continuous?

    jal

  • Jal, I have been on continual therapy since June 2006, zoldex, casodex, estrogen patch , nilandron , high dose ketoconazole zytiga/, xtandi and now docetaxol chemo. I was on climera patches .1mg per day 6 out of 7 days and returned to that therapy 5 times adding it to a therapy that failed and getting a response. In the pas Estrogens were a go to drug in prostate cancer. Though I think in the end of it, I may have got a withdrawl response after using it for 2 years with xtandi after xtandi failed.I used climera because mylan patcheds were to big and did not stick, climera is made by 3m whom know a bit about making things stick. Dr Myers always used vivvelle dot patches

  • Have you read Ed Friedman's book and papers? He's been blaming PC on estradiol for years.

    amazon.com/New-Testosterone...

You may also like...