It seems thyroid hormones are key:
inews.co.uk/news/health/sci...
Access now blocked š”
Science Daily has covered it:
sciencedaily.com/releases/2...
(thanks to tattybogle for the link)
Also the the Mail is running an article on it that also mentions details about thyroid hormones which has been GLOSSED OVER as āmetabolismā in some other sources.
Huh. Whoādāve thought, eh? š
And not in the least bit ironic that dietingāespecially repeated dieting and slashing calorie intakeāresults in reduced thyroid function and the lowering of FT3 levels. The younger you are when you start dieting, the worse itās likely to get.
You really are screwed if youāre overweight, it seems to me. The world is full of desperate people (especially women) fighting to achieve a lower weight theyāre doomed to be unable to maintain. Theyāre told that all they need to do is eat less (less!) and move more (which just makes them hungrier) and made to feel itās a personal failingāthat somehow itās because they donāt have the moral fibre to stick to 1200 calories a day and walk 10,000 steps a day. That itās all about greed when in fact, their bodies and brains are screaming at them to JUST EAT THE FOOD! Meanwhile, it does irreparable damage to the metabolism. Bloody marvellous, isnāt it?
I hate the 21st century. History isnāt going to look favourably on this period in timeā¦
Yes I was a bit surprised that they were surprised thyroid hormones were involved. Given they control metabolic rate and are key in weight loss and gain why on earth did it come as such a bolt out of the blue to them?
At least it helps to demolish the weight gain is nothing to do with hypothyroidism rubbish that is spouted by some medics to justify keeping patients undermedicated and ill.
I think Iād rather be here than in the 19th century, when there was no treatment for my condition which surely would have killed me. Along with great advances come equally retrograde and negative developments dragging us down. The best of times and the worst of times. Bizarre isnāt it?
well, I take a high level of daily levo. Doctors shake their heads in horror when they see the level. My T3 is highish but within normal limits. I have not lost any weight!! The only time I've lost a few pounds is when, for some reason other than dieting, I have eaten very little, but then it goes back on when I eat 'normally'. So cannot see how hormones can be solely responsible for weight.
There's a lot of research into "fat" genes which have shown that around 70% of your weight is determined by genetic factors. These genes control not only metabolic rate, which is not solely down to the thyroid, but appetite levels, fat distribution, even to how much people enjoy junk or unhealthy food.
There's been interesting research done that scanned the brains of overweight people. They found they had an unusually strong reaction in the reward centres of the brain when shown pictures of high calorie, high sugar, fat or salt food. This response was missing in people of normal or underweight.
There's also been a lot of research on twins who were adopted separately, bought up in completely different families, yet when compared in adulthood were an almost identical weight. So dismissing any environmental effects of more or less exercise, different diets or lifestyle factors.
Which is not to say we are slaves to our genes but some people will always struggle with their weight and will never be thin, no matter how much they diet or exercise. This seems to surprise society as a whole and doctors in particular which always makes me laugh.
We know genes determine eye colour, hair colour, height, and many diseases, but we seem to think weight is something we have complete control over. It's a dangerous and damaging fallacy.
I agree with what you say I rarely eat more than my stomach tells me. When I am full I stop eating. I do enjoy my food but was brought up just after the war and everybody ate differently. One of my Aunts who was adopted was always overweight but she never ate much. My other Aunt who lived to be 100 often ate the fat of the meat everyone used to save it for her. She was very slim. My adopted Mum also lived to be 100 years old she was always big, not fat. 5ft 4 inches tall and 12 stone. Mum never ate sweets or cakes but was always 12 stone in weight.
Hi
As a case in point of the nature/nurture argument or environment vs genes, I'm adopted myself. I've struggled with my weight since puberty but it certainly wasn't because of my parents. My adopted mum was one of the tiniest people I've ever known, 5 ft nothing and around 6.5 stones.
We ate very healthily as a family, my mum worked in catering and was an excellent cook. Growing up in the 70's and 80's there was no 24 hour tv, no internet, no phones or tablets. You got a couple of hours of kids tv after school and that was it. We didn't eat takeaways, they didn't really exist much apart from fish and chips occasionally, We never ate out and snacking wasn't a big thing back then, apart from fruit.
I can remember being very active as a child, always out on my bike or playing with my friends (this was in the days before you got reported to social services if you let your children out to play, unsupervised).
And yet as soon as I tuned about 12 or 13 I started to gain weight and its been a struggle ever since. I can only assume that my fat genes and hormones kicked in at that point, unbeknownst to me and they never left. I control my weight now having lost a lot, through careful eating, intermittent fasting and lots of exercise but its constant vigilance and work.
Now if it was purely down to what I was eating and how active I was as a teenager, I would have been extremely skinny. So anyone who says eat less and do more can actually go and do one themselves.
CI-CO [Calories In - Calories Out] is simply the biggest load of... ever pushed onto patients. With no clue, they patient blame... well, on lots of issues, when they can do nothing. I struggled for years and years... even when on Armour/T3, then T3 alone. NOTHING but NOTHING would shift the weight I'd not had most of my adult life... with a great diet and more exercise than many of them could likely handle... I fixed myself in 2015/2016 - went down with severe vertigo... GP said 'eat starches due to vomiting - sent it soaring again in no time at all = 50 lbs off = 60 lbs back on in a year!!!
I'm fixed now - not simply weight but to deal with the T2D I'd predicted from 2003 when no doc had a clue... seems we need to find out own 'key' for ourselves. xox
When you say āfixedā what do you mean and how
Whatās T2D
Yes, thanks TSH110 and it can be 'seen off' without medication. Sorry T2D can be seen off! xox
Just posted this on another: FIXED: Due to some genetic factors and, without doubt, our individual mix of hormones, weight is not a simple equation for everyone.
Hormones are EVERYTHING re weight. Yes, I did well on Armour, then Armout + T3, then T3 alone... the most exercise imaginable but NOTHING, until I discovered IF [Intermittent Fasting], Dr Jason Fung and his great diagrams/ explanations... which I'd had from 2013. Instead, once I tipped fully into pretty bad T2D, I then set about to reset my Leptin/Ghrelin, which seems to automatically whip insulin into shape: worked great - check my 2016 post on it. The severe vertigo [worst state imaginable], unravelled it all. Couldn't shift weight again - no matter what - no cheating, no... until I got the 'fatty liver' [Non-Alcoholic 
] USS and set about REALLY going for it. IF worked beyond my wildest dreams - docs are stunned - it's so doable and great! xox.
I understood only Gravesā disease can go into remission where thereās no destruction of the thyroid gland. My understanding is if the thyroid gland is undergoing atrophy as an autoimmune process it cannot be reversed, the thyroid gland cannot regenerate like say a liver can.
Mmm am I barking up the wrong tree here? Iām not sure what you are referring to when you say ācan be seen offā but I did mention this somewhere but with the proviso that the gland was undergoing destruction.
But perhaps you are referring to weight and intermittent fasting? I never eat before 2pm sometimes as late as 6pm - just donāt feel hungry and I get up at 5am and do a physical job. I have wondered if this is my bodyās attempt to fast for reasons known only to it. Not sure if it counts as intermittent or just a daily fast of some considerable hours. I feel fine following this strange pattern. Any thoughts given you have had great results with IF? It was probably what we had to do when we lived a life closer to nature and for many thousands of years, no doubt we are well adapted for it. My mother was a big fan of John Yudkin who was big on fasting and high fat diets he was vilified and sneared at when he died comparatively young but as time has gone on his ideas have outlived him and gained credence.
Oh I get it now type 2 diabetes can be seen off with no medication couldnāt disagree with that. A friend had it badly but has made huge changes to his lifestyle diet etc (donāt not know if he fasted/fasts) and it has indeed been seen off with no drugs.
What a convoluted mind I have!
Would love to read it. Whatās the title of your 2016 post please
I think itās this one:
I can't seem to access my posts - perhaps because my profile needs updating!? Yes, TSH110 has located it. I've a new regime now - eat twice a day, with 5 hours in between those two meals. New, highly specific but flexible foods. xox
Good point
Nutrients are involved in weight levels too :
But on NDT when optimised usually TSH is suppressed, T4 is low and T3 is in upper range so the situations are completely different and the hormone levels are not like for like for t4 monotherapy which does not appear to restore thyroid hormone balance. If you take a lot of T4 this can reduce the conversion to T3 as it affects the diodinases. Perhaps if you had some T3 with your T4. you might find the weight reached something you were happy with but youād need to test it out. I donāt think the hormones are solely responsible for weight but they are clearly very important. I also think that wanting to eat more than you need indicates something is not right and the fine balance has been upset. It could be sheer availability of food or a displacement activity but Iām not convinced. Cancer often disrupts weight too but I donāt know by what mechanism. I presume itās complex.
I cannot get T3 on the NHS. I have asked. However, my T3 is good but I need a lot of T4.
Mine hasnāt. :(. Been taking NDT for several years now.
Thatās a shame. Do you feel ok otherwise? I think I was lucky in that I felt even better than I had done for years once optimised on NDT, my long standing depression simply evaporated so that alone was a huge improvement as it had been very debilitating and I generally felt much better all round. I had been very poorly so it was pretty miraculous to feel so well. I still have niggles, nails are awful lots of arthritis gives me gipp but I canāt complain my bonus time (I was close to dying of thyroid disease before getting thyroid hormone therapy) have been some of my best years so not all downhill since my 50ās.
Have you got your dose as good as possible? I used this guide:
tpauk.com/main/article/trea...
Perhaps you need more T3 than the NDT can give you?
Mine never did - Armour + T3... nothing would shift the wholly unexpected weight gain - NOTHING - it's dreadful, especially when those who can do nothing for you blame you for not doing the right things!? š¦š
Sorry to hear that. I know how down I got on Levothyroxine thinking I had no options and gaining so much weight that would not shift. I was very lucky NDT helped me loose it. I wonder what is going on to give such different outcomes.
Some genetic factors and, without doubt, our individual mix of hormones. Hormones are EVERYTHING re weight. Yes, I did well on Armour, then Armout + T3, then T3 alone... the most exercise imaginable but NOTHING, until I discovered IF [Intermittent Fasting], Dr Jason Fung and his great diagrams/explanations... which I'd had from 2013. Instead, once I tipped fully into pretty bad T2D, I then set about to reset my Leptin/Ghrelin, which seems to automatically whip insulin into shape: worked great - check my 2016 post on it. The severe vertigo [worst state imaginable], unravelled it all. Couldn't shift weight again - no matter what - no cheating, no... until I got the 'fatty liver' [Non-Alcoholic ] USS and set about REALLY going for it. IF worked beyond my wildest dreams - docs are stunned - it's so doable and great! xox.
My aunt died back in 1933 she had hyperthyroidism. She left a son only aged two that my mother helped to bring up. She was only 24 years old.
Oh dear how tragic
Yes although we don't get the treatment we deserve back then it was life or death and quite often death. We all have to keep fighting for our health.
Yes itās a terrible thought all the poor women and men that died of thyroid disorder when it was not known how to treat it. Knowing what the late stages of the disease are like from personal experience, it would have been a horrible way to die. I think the Chinese were much earlier to have effective treatment with glandulars than here.
You wrote that with feeling Jazzw, have you been one of these women I wonder? I have, fasting, true fasting as in only black tea or black coffee for a week at a time with no food or even milk at all and still feeling ashamed of my body. Knowing what I know now I greatly regret it.
Is it a subscription only article
try this one instead : sciencedaily.com/releases/2...
found it while doing a search for John Speakman / Sumei Hu / University of Aberdeen / Chinese Academy of Sciences/ research /metabolism / thyroid hormones........ to see if i can find the actual research.
here's the actual research , but access is limited:
"Higher than predicted resting energy expenditure and lower physical activity in healthy underweight Chinese adults"
Sumei Hu, Xueying Zhang, Marina Stamatiou, Catherine Hambly, Yumeng Huang , Jianfang Ma, Yiran Li, John R.Speakman
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
So interesting tatty. The intro says something like: those with low BMI just run hotter and eat less
Well(!), since testing positive for covid Iām ārunning hotterā. My temp has āspikedā at 36.7. Not high you might say and youād be right, itās more like a ānormalātemperature but given that my normal is much lower, this is high for me
Anyway, the upshot of this point is, Iāve lost weight (and I just donāt any more) to the tune of 5lbs in 3 days, despite eating normally. Unfortunately, this will pile back on post covid
The other point Iād like to make is: because we hypos usually have lower temperatures it means that when we have infections our temperatures rise to ānormalā levels giving doctors a false impression of how unwell we are
When we were being checked for infections with a thermometer at the entrance of restaurants and bars last year I thought it a risible measure in that so many hypos arenāt even aware of being hypos much less that their temps are below normal and so if Iād approached a bar and been checked Iād have been admitted based on 36.7 even though covid is running rampant within me
It came up on my phone yesterday it was about the Canadian study.
This article is about a different study to the large canadian one you saw . , it's looking at 173 subjects with 'normal BMI' compared to 150 subjects with 'healthy underweight BMI' ... it's joint chinese / aberdeen research .
Do you have a link to the canadian one with ?15,000 subjects .. i think i found it earlier while looking for this one , but lost it.
I did have it but not now, sorry. I did look at the Chinese one too though.
Thamks
Sorry it wasnāt when I linked to it yiu could access it. The mail have run it with similar info and I have linked to it in the post info box, so you can read about it there ie here:
ooh look.... he's done horses too , and tested their T3 and T4:
"Thyroid hormones correlate with field metabolic rate in ponies, Equus ferus caballus"
journals.biologists.com/jeb...
"ABSTRACTDuring winter, free-living herbivores are often exposed to reduced energy supply at the same time that energy needs for thermoregulation increase. Several wild herbivores as well as robust horse breeds reduce their metabolism during times of low ambient temperature and food shortage. Thyroid hormones (THs) affect metabolic intensity and a positive effect of THs on basal metabolic rate (BMR) has been demonstrated in mammals and birds. As BMR and field metabolic rate (FMR) are often assumed to be intrinsically linked, THs may represent a reliable indicator for FMR. To test this hypothesis, 10 Shetland pony mares were kept under semi-extensive central European conditions. During the winter season, one group was fed 60% and one group 100% of their maintenance energy requirements. We measured FMR, locomotor activity, resting heart rate and TH levels in summer and winter. FMR, locomotor activity, resting heart rate and total T3 concentrations decreased substantially in winter compared with summer, whereas total T4 increased. Food restriction led to a reduced FMR and resting heart rate, while THs and locomotor activity were not affected. Across both seasons, FMR, resting heart rate and locomotor activity were positively correlated with total T3 but negatively and more weakly correlated with total T4."
and he does giant pandas too ......
theconversation.com/why-are...
"A key physiological system involved in regulating our metabolism is the thyroid hormone system. We suspected that pandas might have something unusual going on with their thyroid hormones ā a hunch that turned out to be correct.
Pandas have very low levels of the main thyroid hormones T4 and T3. We were able to trace these low hormone levels to a unique mutation in the panda genome, which affects a critical gene involved in thyroid hormone synthesis. People who have low thyroid hormone levels often complain that they feel cold. This is potentially because their lowered metabolic rate is insufficient to keep them warm."
I think their is many reasons why someone stays thin why another gains weight and might have not much to do with food or activityā¦. I was fairly active and thin as a kid until steroid injections were given to me by a dermatologist stating it can ācureā your psoriasis and as a young teenager eager to resemble your friends I jumped at this and I have been dealing with its aftermath ever sinceā¦. Its a shame we feel like in order to fit in or be liked we must be look like everyone else around us by dieting or exercising ourselves into lunacyā¦. I exercised and dieted for 3 years managed to lose weight to only lose my thyroid and gain back what I lost and then some ā¦. Want to talk about a blow to your self esteem and my doctors donāt see a connection between the thyroid and weight.. I shudder to think if I was heavy at the time of my thyroidectomy would I have gotten even heavier or would I just stayed the same ā¦ sad!
I already commentated on this earlier on another post. Yes interesting but it's something Ihad always thought possible. I was a runner and have enjoyed 2000 calories every day since giving up in my sixties. I have never put on weight I am 10 stone and am 5ft 8 inches tall.
I have always thought that exercise is not required for losing weight, and I was right. Very interesting because people especially trainers have always told me I was wrong.
Interesting. Since falling from standing completely backwards onto concrete and banging my head as well as the effects on my neck and the rest of my body, I have gained a stone. A whole stone in 2 months. Nothing has changed in my diet. My feet and legs are swelling, and doing that ugly pitting when pressed...just as they did before I started thyroid hormones. Once I started Levo, I gradually lost 4 stones over the following year...and kept it off without changing my diet. I feel sure I'm out of hormone kilter again.
Are doctors going to use this research to pour (even more) scorn on their patients and say "You only want a higher dose of Levo because you want to lose weight without any effort?"
Thing is humanbean, it's not normal weight...it's fluid. Whatever that hypo fluid is called.And is not moved by fluid retention tablets....can't remember what they're called either...brain fog.
Whatever that hypo fluid is called.
Mucin.
And is not moved by fluid retention tablets....can't remember what they're called either...brain fog.
I can't remember either.
But doctors look at people carrying extra weight and they would just laugh at anyone who told them it was "water weight" or mucin.
Diuretics 
fog cleared a bit. You're right. No, they don't see fluid and weight as having a connection.
I sincerely hope not, itās an obscene thought they would deny ill people the medication they need claiming they are just abusing it to reach a healthy weight. They would no doubt prefer stomach stapling years down the line. But that type of medic is out there and far too commonly out there, already denying thyroid medication to those that need it and refusing to correctly optimise it for those on it. Who knows what hideous perversion of this information they will come up with to keep us ill.
I sincerely hope not, itās an obscene thought they would deny ill people the medication they need claiming they are just abusing it to reach a healthy weight.
I have read anecdotes about such dismissal before. And it has been suggested to me as well. I've been self-treating for about 9 years now. I have actually put weight on, but losing weight wasn't my prime motivation. I just wanted to feel well. But getting a doctor to believe a woman of my age with my health history? Never gonna happen.
Yes as I wrote it I though hells bells itās happening all the time! Thereās a really big attitude problem isn't there? Iām about 8 years self medicating on NDT a lot more successfully that qualified medics managed with t4 monotherapy. I had I intended to ask my gp fur an NHS NDT prescription give 2000 people get them and Iāve been well on it all this time but I canāt see her agreeing my area has zero NDT NHS prescriptions which doesnāt bode well. I think sheād listen but probably not act perhaps because her hands are tied. I agree itās the feeling well that matters most not the poundage.
There is a paywall. Can someone post the text please.
It was open access when I posted it š š”š¤¬ why shut it down if people are wanting to read it? Subscription fishing thatās why. I canāt access it now to get the text out, infuriating.
JackieVest, 'Can someone post the text please.'
No, this would be infringing copyright.
16. Do not breach copyright rules by placing documents onto Thyroid UK unless you have permission from the author of the document. You can, however, post excerpts with links to the full text of the document. healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...
More about Copyright Infringement
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyr...
Thanks for this clarification. It is in the mail so Iāve linked to that
I know all about copyright infringement, thanks. But as indicated above, this article is in multiple sources so it is a free access piece that one news outlet has artificially paywalled. š
The article as it appears on the Mail website clearly claims copyright and the authors appear to be employees of the Daily Mail.
We do not have the resources to get legal advice on copyright and at least superficially we appear to have no leg to stand on.
That the article is in multiple places does NOT get round copyright. Might be syndicated in some way or others are more carefree with their attitude to copyright.
If you have a link to the original free access piece, let us know where and, so long as not too long, we might post it.
There is already a link posted from Daily Mail that lets users read without a paywall, so it's rather a moot point, isn't it?
JackieVest, If you look through this thread, you will see that tattybogle had previously posted a link to the paper in Science Daily. So there is no need nor reason to copy and paste articles from news outlets that have every right to charge for access to their own journalists work.
And someone else posted a link to the Daily Mail where there is no paywall. Are you saying it is preferable that I pay to read the Science Daily rather than the free link on Daily Mail? Sorry, I'm confused.
Science Daily are not charging anyone, or at least they weren't when I checked less than five minutes ago. Personally I'd rather read Science Daily than the DM, but each to their own.
The reason this whole conversation got started is because there is/was a paywall. See here as I am cutting and pasting from the original poster.
It seems thyroid hormones are key:
inews.co.uk/news/health/sci...
Access now blocked š”
That link is to inews.co.uk
It is not a link to the paper on Science Daily as posted by tattybogle further up this thread.
thanks
It (mail) was the only link I could find that actually mentioned the thyroid hormones but I agree itās not an ideal source tho
It was inews but they are forever trying to get you to subscribe. Normally you can bypass it by checking the Iāll do it later tick box but they must have got onto it (maybe the link is labeled somehow to stop multiple readings?) and completely blocked the article to non subscribers. Perhaps it was a blanket block. If you do get in gratis the formatting keeps going wrong, must be deliberate to ruin your reading experience and encourage you to subscribe but I hardly ever read their stuff even less so because itās a headache in the making. So itās had the opposite effect as intended on me. Their loss - look at the potential readership they have turned away from this alone. I have put two other links that are open access (Science Daily and the Mail [sorry]) but as you say I think they are copyrighted. Other sources I found had omitted any mention of thyroid hormones
I must be the exception to the rule.
My weight didn't move from 60kg after the age of 18 until 34. I started to put weight on after I got near to optimally dosed. Which took me from a BMI of less than 18 to 19.8.
I certainly put on weight on t4 monotherapy the more I had the fatter I got. I had been very thin and not a big eater, but once my thyroid disease started galloping out of control I began to feel starving hungry and would eat a huge dinner only to feel utterly famished as though I had eaten nothing I could eat three massive meals before the starving sensation finally abated. Once on Levo I just put on more and more weight yet the crazy eating urge ceased. After two years optimised on it (my free T3 was always rock bottom so not really optimised at all) I had put on four stone and felt dire. I resorted to NDT as a final clutch at straws and was delighted when I started to get benefits exceeding my expectations and the weight tumbled off with no effort. We are all different tho.
Ive lost weight on Levo - am I the only one?
Iād been a bit overweight all my life. I was one of those children described as āBonnyā. Iāve always loved food. My BMI was 25 (borderline overweight)
Now in my sixties Iāve been on Levo for a few years. On titrating to 100mcg my FT4 went a little over range with FT3 near top of range and negligible TSH. I started to lose weight going from 10.5 stone down to 9 stone now.
The GP didnāt notice so I was on this dose for several months before I decided to skip a dose once a week to bring it down to 85mcg average, which has brought FT4 back into range and FT3 now mid range, TSH still on the floor but for a few months I continued to lose weight although itās now stable at a healthy BMI of 23.
This year the GP did notice the weight loss and decided to ātest my FT4 before lowering Levo ā. I didnāt say Iād already lowered it. She ordered a full blood test but failed to order FT4 so she didnāt get back to me, and Iāve kept my 100mcg which I can skip once a week keeping my FTs in range and weight now stable at around 9.2.
My cholesterol is down too, from 5.9 to 4.2. My blood pressure was always lowish but itās gone up to normal. My blood sugar remains high HBa1C hovering around 41-43.
Thatās a great result, clearly Levothyroxine suits you well. All my relatives on it felt very well indeed and their weight soon dropped back to their ideal, one had mushroomed to a size 18 and dropped back to a size 10. I knew something was wrong when it didnāt have those results for me, but why that is I really donāt know. I love the way you have taken complete control of your dosing and even have dose tweaking nailed! Impressive š
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