I've only taken T3 for the past three days

[jrbarnes]

I've tried about every T4/T3, Ndt, different brand Levos for a year and felt terrible on all of them. Three days ago I stopped my Levo, after trying to increase it and experiencing worsening symptoms. The first day I took 10mcg before bed and another 10mcg upon waking at 4am. Then 10mcg around 10am. I have had zero negative symptoms. No palpitations, in fact they went away on T3. When I wake at 4am I'm calm and thoughts aren't going in circles with anxiety. I have elevated cortisol levels(saliva) from about 12 noon to midnight so I've been taking Holy Basil in the evening and a cup of chamomile. I don't doubt that low T3 levels on Levo led me to a cortisol problem.

Not sure if going T3 only is the way but I'm not feeling rage, like yelling at people, anger on the road, and wanting to punch things when I drop stuff like on Levo. I'm also not dragging my legs like Frankenstein's monster. Not sure if 30mcg of T3 is enough or if I will feel terrible in a week. I'm still tired but can take a deep breath and relax. On Levo my mood felt flat and no joy.

[jrbarnes]

It's so relaxing that the permanent furrow between my eyebrows is disappearing. 😜

[greygoose]

Not sure if 30mcg of T3 is enough or if I will feel terrible in a week.

If you do, then just increase the dose - by 1/4 tablet.

I've been on T3 only for years - can't remember exactly how many, but more than 8 years. Levo just wasn't for me. From time to time, I've tried reintroducing small doses of levo, but it doesn't work. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I just know I feel better without it than I do with it. So, T3 only it is, for me.

[jrbarnes in reply to greygoose]

Thanks for the advice. It took me a year to stop being in denial about my conversion problem. It was like staging an intervention on myself. 😀

[greygoose in reply to jrbarnes]

You're welcome.

[marvalrus in reply to greygoose]

I envy you. I sure wish I could go T3 only. Would help resolve my sub-optimal labs. I can't use it or NDT because it throws me into dizzy mode. I don't know why. There's gotta be a reason though. Wish I could find that reason.

[jrbarnes in reply to marvalrus]

I had the same response to NDT after being on 2 grains for a few weeks. I was dizzy, had heat intolerance, and would get lightheaded each time I bent over and back up. I thought the T3 was too much but when I reduced to 1.5 grains I'd feel amazing for a week then terrible after. I realized that I felt great because I reduced the T4 which allowed for better conversion of all that T4 I'd built up combined with the T3 but after a week it was gone and back to feeling unwell. That's where the conversion problem comes in. Yes, you need those good amounts of T4 but to get there you have to take a higher amount of T4 however it reduces conversion and then add T3 on top and you feel worse. I even tried to reduce to 1.75, 1.5, and 1 grain and add T3 to it but still felt terrible. I don't know the science behind it but my body desperately needs the T3 and T4 for whatever reason is a real hindrance to getting it. This was a last resort. I had to completely cut Levo out of the equation. I also have elevated cortisol all day except for the morning and Levo was either the cause or exacerbates the cortisol issue. My saliva test stated that my cortisol pattern could be due to either a medication or stress. The only medication I took was Levo and I had no stress so I had to draw a conclusion that the Levo was causing elevating my cortisol most likely due to low T3 levels. If you haven't then I'd recommend doing a saliva cortisol test.

[marvalrus in reply to jrbarnes]

You need to get your ACTH checked simultaneously with Cortisol serum a.m. test. Saliva tests are great, but you need to see the ACTH output. When is the your highest cortisol level according to you saliva diurnal test? Yes, I have the exact same problems w/T4 - T3 conversion, and I have adrenal issues. Mine are low. Recently have been having a lot of various problems so I'm waiting on my saliva kit. Been going on for years. I want to get off of T4 so bad. I'm sick of it. Literally.

[Meanbeannyc in reply to marvalrus]

What’s dizzy mode

[marvalrus in reply to Meanbeannyc]

Dizzy. I cannot handle a speck of T3, or NDT. It makes me dizzy. I think it is related to my adrenal insufficiency but I'm not 100% sure. The only way to see is to take extra Cortef, but not willing to do that since it may make me even more dependent.

[Meanbeannyc in reply to marvalrus]

Maybe u r taking too much all around?

[marvalrus in reply to Meanbeannyc]

No, only on 50 T4. Would love to take some T3, but even a speck of dust immediately makes me dizzy. I do not know exactly why. I tried and tried taking NDT for a month, NatureThroid (when it was good). Someone told me to just keep at it. You're like a dry sponge right now, ya gotta wait for it. Ha, it never happened and I got sick and tired of being dizzy everyday. Was not worth it. Thyroid hormones do use up cortisol at a quicker rate. I could experiment with like 5mcg of Cytomel and 10or 15 Cortef, but I really can't mess w/things at the moment. After I'm more stable I'll ask my doc to look into it more. He's got me on Tirosint and I hope it makes a difference in my T3 status which rarely makes it above 2.5. All thyroid medication is Contraindicated for people w/adrenal insufficiency, so there's def a connection.

[Meanbeannyc in reply to marvalrus]

What do your labs look like now? On tiro only?

[marvalrus in reply to Meanbeannyc]

Will know in one month, when I get retested. Had to rebuild my adrenal. (Singular, since I had one removed).

[Localhero]

Glad to know T3 is having a good effect on you! Fingers crossed it continues.

And...

I don't doubt that low T3 levels on Levo led me to a cortisol problem.

I’m curious. What led you to come to this conclusion?

[jrbarnes in reply to Localhero]

The symptoms correlate with my labs and the saliva test I took. I googled some info on low thyroid and elevated cortisol.

[Heloise]

After going through many stages and treatments I still don't understand why T4 can be detrimental to some of us but as your experience shows T3 can make a big difference. I think you may have to ramp up to 50 or 60 mcgs eventually. I take it all at once. Hopefully the supply will be there which seems to be the only problem. I'm glad it is working out for you and others who are not making progress can take note. Of course, other support may be necessary to keep autoimmunity at bay.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

Thank you. I'm on 30mcg at the moment and feeling the T4 depletion rapidly so there's an increase coming tonight. The biggest change is in my face and mood. It's like the collagen is coming back. My under eyes are filling in and deep lines and furrows are smoothing out. My jowls are lifting. I had a red darkened tone to my face that appears to be cooling down.

I think my symptoms prior to Levo were so mild because my body does a much better job at rapid conversion to keep me afloat, of course until I developed an adenoma and had half my thyroid removed. Introducing Levo reduced it significantly. Adding T3 on top of the Levo reduces it even more. I know having the surgery didn't help but I still functioned quite normally for two years without Levo. Even when my T3 levels were in the optimal range of 70% my TSH was still over '1' and T4 levels over range, however that's debatable because some labs set the bar for T4 really low or high. I was able to function but was still cold and had a hoarse voice. I'd get sick easily and illnesses would linger. I think my TSH was saying that I was still hypo at a cellular level. Levo seems to be a hindrance for a certain group of people. I don't know the science behind it so all I can do is draw theories based on what I've read. When I was in my 20s I took Spironalactone for cystic acne as my endo said my male hormones were a little high for my age, combined with hypoglycemia, and dark hair growth it makes me wonder if my thyroid issue was secondary to something else.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

D3 should be high enough to help your thyroid as well.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

I agree Vitamin D is very important for thyroid health. Gardening is my hobby so my D levels are perfect in the Spring and Summer but hit rock bottom in the cold months so I started supplementing during those months. I've also been increasing my calorie/carb intake.

[Lotika]

I may find myself having a similar Damascene conversion one of these days, in the absence of any of the enzymatic sort! I’ve been thinking that high fT4 and OK fT3 is the thing to aim for, but that’s only because I have no idea how any kind of decent fT3 may feel, so it’s like some kind of beginner’s bias!

[jrbarnes in reply to Lotika]

I've had "optimal" FT3 levels in the past but still had hypo symptoms. When I was on Levo I didn't know any better and was ignorant about T3. I had slight fatigue since a teen so lived with it like it was normal and when I was placed on Levo I didn't feel an increase in energy. When I had a taste of T3 I was like so this is what I'm supposed to feel like.

[Lotika in reply to jrbarnes]

I’m glad that is sounds like you are getting there! I am on an NHS trial. They cut my levo by 50% and added t3. FT3 went from 11% through range to 43% but FT4 dropped from 41% from 70%. I was more tired and less achy, less depressed, so good, T3 does something... I asked for more T4 thinking if I could have the benefits of both life would be perfect and fT3 has fallen back to 28 whilst fT4 has only risen to 47% so I am now both tired and achy! So, basically, I’m seeing some parallels between our situations!

Could be a course of antibiotics I took during the increase in T4 trashed my gut causing the drop in conversion or could be the increase in T4 lowered TSH and banjaxed conversion in the peripheral tissues. Or a bit of both, most likely.

Seeing NHS endo tomorrow so I’m hoping for a professional view... but you can see why I’m wondering if it is T3 only or NDT for me in the future... Or maybe it is just the antibiotics and I’ll be fine with another increase in levo...

anyway, I’m crossing my fingers that you continue to see the improvements and it’s great to hear someone’s eureka moment! Gives me hope!!

[jrbarnes in reply to Lotika]

Thank you and good luck to you as well. I experienced worsening fatigue and weakness when taking any amount of Levo with T3. The more I increased the Levo the symptoms like insomnia, anxiety, dry throat, cracking lips and edema would set in. The body pain would increase. Once I cut the Levo and increased the T3 I'm still tired but I can sleep better, my mood is calm, the edema is lessening, I'm not dragging my legs. I'm only up to 35mcg of T3 so obviously not enough. It seems such a simple concept to lower the Levo and add some T3 to make it up and feel great but it hasn't worked for me and that's frustrating. It's unfortunate that patients have to Google online, make guesses or draw conclusions about what's going wrong. Thyroid hormone is meant to make you feel normal and good not disabled! sorry long ramble😜

[Lotika in reply to jrbarnes]

Oh no, I appreciate a good ramble! I feel your pain with the fact that we need to learn or fall by the wayside. Ouch.

[Heloise]

It does sound as if you had something going hormonally wrong in your 20's. Often functional doctors will try to balance hormones first. Half your thyroid may be working as I think others have said that. What did the Levo reduce significantly? I had a terrible reaction to T4 which affected my muscles (20 years ago). Some functional doctors will make calculations from total T3, total T4 as well as the Free T3 and 4. This helps make more accurate determinations if you can find someone who has the expertise. But it shows just how well the doctor will resume healing when given the right circumstance.

Why don't you do the basal rate test and see how you fit in. Metabolism is about temperature and your pituitary is involved with that as well. It would have been good to find out WHY your testosterone levels were high. There is always a reason when your body reveals a symptom. Did you have antibodies?

forefronthealth.com/lp/free...

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

It's a mystery to me. Started at 12 with cystic acne, hypoglycemia at 14, then fatigue followed. I've been told by a few obgyn and endo they suspected PCOS but my cycles have always been right on time and normal. The endo pointed to my male androgens being slightly elevated, which is probably why the Spiro got rid of my acne. I currently see a functional practitioner and I have the option to see her as a PCP or functional but I haven't gone functional yet, however I order my own labs online. My next tests will be all the female hormones. Sorry long ramble.

I don't have TPO antibodies but my TG antibodies were flagged high. My total T3 levels have always been close to the bottom of the reference range and don't budge much even with an increase in Levo or FT3 levels. Levo reduces my conversion the higher I push it. Levo has never normalized my body temperature. My ex boyfriend used to tease me because I always complained it was cold.

I'll take a look at the basal rate test. Thank you.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

I looked at your past posts and see you are in the U.S. I'm in NY and can't do my own tests out of state. I was sorry to hear how NDT was for you. I could probably go back to two grains of NDT if I couldn't get T3. I think you need someone to look at all those tests and see what's going on. Normally when you add T3 to your current treatment, it will make your FT4 go down if you are taking T4, and should increase conversion which I thought you said you did well with but doesn't look like it during some of those trials. You certainly put the work in and I hope it pays off.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

Oh that's too bad NY doesn't allow self testing. I felt poorly on a T4/T3 combo.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

Maybe your T4 is turning into Reverse T3. Do they test that?Cortisol and estrogen can block T3.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

I've never tested RT3 but I wish I had before I went off my old Levo to confirm, however with high T4 and low T3 I'd bet RT3 was probably high. It's such a delicate balance. One hormone can throw everything off. I'm hoping going T3 only will get everything back on track.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

I think T3 will make a difference. It would be good to know if T4 is working for you or against you. Some people should not take any T4 but not sure how that is decided other than trial and error. I wonder if that was why you had a problem with NDT. You also said you could feel the T4 being depleted but it really shouldn't have any effect on you as it is inactive.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

In some ways T4 works for me but at the same time it works against me. The T3 in NDT definitely wasn't the problem, although I assumed it was in the beginning. That's why I felt so good for one week after going from 2 grains to 1.5 , because I lowered the T4 amount and it allowed for better conversion. I usually need over range T4 levels to function on Levo only. Even the tiniest change in potency between brands or generics is debilitating to me. I haven't been on a steady T4 amount for a year since trying combos so going off it completely I had to titrate this T3 quickly. Such complicated stuff and it's so individual.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

So will you continue to add T3 and lower T4? Some genetics are involved in conversion and also your liver. You have probably read about silymarin or milk thistle, alpha lipoic acid and n acetyl cysteine so supporting the liver can be helpful and NAC is a precursor of glutathione the master antioxidant so to be considered as well.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

I know from past labs that the more I increase my Levo the higher my liver enzymes are. T3 seems to lighten the load on my liver, if that is a real thing. In the past my T4 levels were around 1.88 to 1.9 with T3 around 3.5 to 3.8 and TSH around 1.3 to 1.5. When my T4 levels dropped to 1.7 then my T3 levels dropped to 2.6. That's what really put me in the state I'm in. I always took generics. Even with optimal Free T3 levels I was still having hypo symptoms.

[jrbarnes in reply to jrbarnes]

I forgot to answer! I plan to increase the T3. I haven't taken the Levo in 5 days. I see my nurse practitioner today. Luckily, she has hypo herself and takes a t4/t3 combo.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

"T3 seems to lighten the load on my liver" I'm not sure about that but a brilliant doctor I followed for years called those "liver death tests". He practiced for 34 years and said liver enjymes can look good even a couples of hours before you die. Sorry about the typo, my keyboard wants to insert a j instead of what it's supposed to.

It's hard to decipher some of those changes. The key is to get your temperature to normal. Metabolic rate is a good way to see if T3 is entering cells and burning calories. Unless they have found something better. If T4 doesn't convert and you only achieve reverse Ts from it, it may not be worth it. I think there is still a question whether reverse T has its own receptors or just blocks T3 receptors .

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

I've been checking my temperature periodically during the day. I'm up to 40mcg of T3 today and my body temp is at 97.1. I feel better when it's 97.8-98.6. My fingers are definitely cold right now. On thyroidpatients.ca one of the articles states that a replacement dose is 50-125mcg with the average being 75 +. I never have any heart palps or negative symptoms each time I increase. In fact, it feels just as normal as taking Levo without the body pain and myalgias. Do you feel normal on T3 only?

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

97.1 is not very good although I read that EVERYONE's temperature is going down in some evolutionary way. I can see that happening due to pollution and other factors.My son just left Santa Monica and I wanted him to check out some great doctors there. I posted many of John Bergman's videos in particular his thyroid/adrenal videos. He understands organ function and he's funny. Look him up on You Tube.

As far as the range 50-125, you are talking about T3? Some people have resistance and need to go way beyond normal but I don't like that idea, but if that's what it takes.

We don't know how much your own half thyroid is producing. After 20 years of my hypothyroidism I don't know if I'm producing hormone either but I take 50 mcgs which seems to be equal to two grains of NDT and/or 150 mcg of Levothyroxine.

I still have tinnitus which I have hoped to get rid of and think it has to do with vagus nerve damage. You have to get rid of inflammation which may not even be related to thyroid hormone. Other than that I feel normal, I golf, I work out on my elliptical and do all my own chores and am never ill. I haven't been sick in any way for fifteen years except for one virus where I felt perfectly well but couldn't stop coughing for two months. I have been wondering if it was a kind of covid. That was four years ago and other people had it as well.

Get your thyroid treatment straightened out and then work on other aspects of health. A food sensitivity test is helpful, even the healthiest people can have a problem with some foods or chemicals.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

Thank you, it's good to read a positive experience. I suppose it will take a while for my body to recover after being in a low state for several years. On Levo my temp was usually around 97.2, sometimes higher in the cycle. I know as my body temp rises I'm getting closer. I have no idea if after ten years of Levo the other half of my thyroid will kick up some production but it would be nice. Again, thank you so much for the advice and personal experience with T3!

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

You're very welcome and keep going. You're correct that a low state may have depleted mitochondria but you can make more through careful exercise. Watch out for vegetable oils. They block ATP. Lactic acid can be a problem, but your body still has potential at your age. You still make stem cells and enjymes and all those good things, just give it time and good nutrition.Now I have to figure out why my keyboard types a j instead of

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

I have the same problem with J's but only because I fat finger. I just got back from my functional nurse practitioner earlier and she told me that she was once on T3 only for years before switching to a T4/T3 combo. She bumped my dose up to 50mcg and wants me to test after a week. I'm so lucky to have found this lady to prescribe. I can't wait to do light exercise again as it's been over a year since. When I was on Levo I could barely manage 20 minutes of light aerobics in the morning, which only made me more tired. I'm not 100% yet but I went on a walk today and felt a pep in my step and was more sociable. The hardest thing I've been working on is increasing my carb intake with fruits and vegetables and other good carbs, as well as fiber and protein.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

That is so good, jr! You are fortunate. I haven't had an FT3 test in 3 years. My P.A. is so lame but I don't know if I can find anyone better. Being on Medicare doesn't help if they don't believe in T3. My goodness that Levo slowed you to that degree. With me I had horrid spasm down my back so hard I had to press my back against a wall for the first few months on Synthroid. I was stupid and didn't really know anything. So be sure to educate yourself and think holistically which I think you are. What supplements are you taking? B vitamins act as enjymes so a whole complex plus B12,( the j is very far away from the other key, I don't get it) I think you already take jinc and D3 and C. I think it's a good idea to make sure your nutrients are breaking down so a Betaine HCL or a digestive enjyme but not together. Magnesium is also important. Did you mention progesterone to your N/P. I order it from Forefront Health and it's a liquid which you rub on your gums where it will absorb well.

When I was watching a summit by Ijabella Wentj there was an experience of a boy who had a traumatic brain injury and his mother remembered that progesterone was also an antiinflammatory and they used a lot of it to protect his brain and it did.

I think you are going to be feeling better very soon, just pace yourself and know your body is trying to heal.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

She wants me to do some hormonal testing and another cortisol saliva test to see if it improves after going on T3. I'm on Metagenics brand CorticoB5B6, Glycogenics which is a B complex with methyl B12 and Folate, Vit C, Zinc/copper, magnesium, selenium, curcumin, and Vit D in cold months. Gardening is my hobby so my Vit D is in th eupper range in Spring and Summer. I've also been eating 200g of liver per week. I do have some Betaine HCL but haven't used it. T3 is a cheap product to make and it's what the body produces naturally like insulin for diabetics so I don't understand all the fuss. I hope things change over the next twenty years for thyroid treatment.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

That looks good, do you get omega 3 or eat salmon? Metagenics is a great company.My other son is a biomedical engineer and told me how cheap T3 is and he knows how to compress a tablet. But he's too busy to help his mother, haha.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

Those 5mcg lio pills are expensive compared to the 25mcg. If I only need 20mcg daily it is 100 usd for 5mcgx4 daily but for 50mcg it has only cost me 25 usd for 25x2 daily. I eat salmon and trout a few times a week.

[Meanbeannyc in reply to Heloise]

What do you mean calculations? This is interesting

[Heloise in reply to Meanbeannyc]

Hi Meanbeannyc, I wish I could explain but it was one of the interviews during a summit. I don't know if you ever watch those but the host interviews other functional doctors and this particular practitioner went through the calculations of all the thyroid numbers, the total t3s and t4s and free t3s and t4s and also reverse t3. He had a chart and looked at the ratios among them all. This helped him determine what was going on more specifically. It was interesting but during those talks coming fast and furious over a week makes it difficult to follow up, take notes but this doctor was the first one I heard placed a lot of importance to those total numbers. They are probably meaningful if you can figure them out.

[Heloise]

Oh, I thought you were older mainly when you had the acne because I understood that a 13 year old girl has more testosterone than a boy of that age. That is great to hear about the tests. I've looked at Dr. Jockers (online and a good one) and he is offering the organic oats test. I've always wanted that. Are you in the U.S. by chance? I transitioned to T3 from NDT simply because these NDT people were having trouble getting a source of pig thyroid but I began adding it to Naturethroid and finally raised by FT3 which was also at the bottom and so was T4. I went to an equal dose of T3 as I was taking in NDT and it was very smooth.

I am a big believer in progesterone ala Ray Peat but this discussion is with a couple of online doctors who love the research. These younger doctors are very good.

"Because of the prioritization of progesterone to cortisol. You also touched in on how that cortisol can affect your thyroid because if your hormones start going off, if progesterone starts going off, that can affect thyroid conversion because if cortisol’s out of balance, that can affect T4 to T3 conversion which is your inactive thyroid hormones, so you’re active thyroid hormone. And also progesterone’s a powerful stimulator of TPO, which is the enzyme that helps bind tyrosine and iodine together to make thyroid hormone. So progesterone is really important to building thyroid hormone. So you can see this is why you don’t just get one symptom when hormones go out of balance because it just has this constellation ripple that can happen and many symptoms can occur because of it."

justinhealth.com/estrogen-d...

Your body will steal progesterone when you are stressed in order to deal with the stress. That is the priority the body has and does not change.

Best wishes I hope you succeed.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

Thank you. I'll give that a good read. You touched on something there with the progesterone because I've been reading about it lately in regards to elevated cortisol and the connection to poor conversion. What a terrible cycle it is. Low thyroid hormone causing elevated cortisol stealing progesterone leading to worse conversion. The whole time my GP was telling me that my T4 levels were too high. However I doubt I was ever optimal on T4 only even with high enough T4. I had acne from the time I was 12 and throughout adulthood until going on Levo. At 27 when I had the adenoma I bloated up 10 lbs and my face exploded in the worst cystic acne ever. Once the adenoma was removed it all disappeared. I'm definitely going to get my progesterone and female hormones tested. Also, a year after I went on Levo I developed painful fibroids, finally had them treated a few years ago. So there's some hormonal stuff going on. Best wishes and thanks.

[Heloise in reply to jrbarnes]

There is more about estrogen in that podcast link. It's also in print. It's not really the estrogen but the metabolites of estrogen. As it breaks down your body is supposed to dispose of those metabolites but if you don't detox, they recirculate and that is the problem. With slow metabolism detoxing becomes a problem because many people are constipated. All of this works against us and that's why our treatment has to get optimal as fast as possible.

[jrbarnes in reply to Heloise]

I do not want excess or elevated estrogen. I need to get this testing done. Thanks for the link