Why do antibodies attack the thyroid

[McPammy]

Does anyone know why antibodies attack the thyroid please. I’ve been thinking, why does this happens to some of us causing Hashimotos. Do we get a virus in the thyroid and antibodies overreact destroying it.

[Marz]

greygoose writes well on the topic ! Click onto her name in blue - then click Replies and you can scroll through her responses. Hope that works for you !

Alternatively scroll down and down to Related Posts where there are 10 more similar posts on the topic ..

[Lalatoot]

Antibodies don't attack the thyroid; they clean up the mess after the immune system has attacked the thyroid.

[greygoose]

Contrary to popular belief, it is not the TPO/Tg antibodies themselves that attack the thyroid:

"When lymphocytes infiltrate the thyroid gland, mistakenly taking it for a foreign bacteria invader, they damage the thyroid gland and release thyroid peroxidase &/or thyroglobulin into the blood stream. These don't belong outside of the thyroid gland so antibodies are developed to mop them up.

The antibodies are a result of the attack on the thyroid gland, the antibodies don't cause the attack."

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/about_...

There are all sorts of theories about why this happens. One theory is that it all starts with a leak gut. But for a lot of women, it starts after pregnancy. And, there are also things like excess iodine that can trigger it. But, you have to have a pre-disposition for it in your genes. And, I really don't think anybody knows why some are pre-disposed to Hashi's and others aren't.

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

I've often wondered why some people are pre-disposed and not others. Mine were first detected on routine bloods in 2018 but quite possibly been raised for many years then 🤔

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

Very often it's hereditary.

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

Not that i'm aware of anyway. It could have been triggered by pregnancy although that was some years ago in 2002

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

You could have had it since 2002.

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

Quite possibly. Interesting about the atrophic thyroiditis. I was told i can't have hashis because i don't have a goitre 🙄

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

Yes, technically, that is true. Without a goitre it's called Ord's. But, I wish they were as pedantic about the TSH as they are about the antibodies!!!

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

Ah ok. I see. My levels are being monitored every 6 months as i'm at risk of developing it.

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

Developing what? Autoimmune Thyroiditis? What are your antibody levels?

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

Yes. Developing autoimmune thyroid disease. When they were tested by my gp my tpo antibodies were >1000

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

Then you have it. No question. So, is he waiting for your TSH to rise? Because there's nothing you can do about the actual Hashi's, there is no treatment or cure. All you can do is replace the thyroid hormone when the thyroid becomes too damaged to produce them.

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

Thank you for clarifying. Yes they are waiting. As in my Dr's words my thyroid levels are 'normal' the last test was tsh 2.5 (0.20-4.50) Free t4 13 (9.21)

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

Well, a TSH of 2.5 is in-range, but it's not 'normal'. It shows your thyroid is struggling. And your FT4 is only 33.33% through the range. Normal would be more like 50%. On the other hand, you're not quite hypo, yet. So, it would be difficult to find a doctor to treat you at this point.

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

Hi thank you. No i realise that. I think that's why they are monitoring me. So see what the next test shows. Have always wondered whether symptoms can show before it appears on blood tests or its antibodies causing symptoms.

Sorry for so many questions lol

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

Oh, they absolutely can, yes. Many, many people would have symptoms with a TSH of over 2. Not that it's the TSH causing the symptoms, it's low T3, but TSH is a rough indication of the FT3 level. Yours could be very low, but they don't even test it!

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

I wish you could tell my Dr that lol. I am going to ask my free t3 to be tested next time. They have never tested it before so i would be interested to see the level IF the lab agrees that is.

[greygoose in reply to Macey2009]

And that's a big IF! I wish I could tell your doctor that. I wish I could tell all doctors! But, they wouldn't listen to me. They know it all!

[Macey2009 in reply to greygoose]

No, unfortunately not. It's thanks to this site and knowledgeable people like you that help the most ☺

[Ie1658 in reply to Macey2009]

How can your doctor say, your Thyroid is normal, where is T3 and where the antibodies and and and

[Macey2009 in reply to Ie1658]

Hi my gp had never tested my t3 although I have never asked for it either tbh. They did test my tpo antibodies though which were >1000

[McPammy in reply to greygoose]

Thank you Greygoose for making it clearer to me. I’m thinking mine might be hereditary, as I’ve never been pregnant and my sister has had thyroid cancer, I have Hashimotos. I also have the faulty DIO2 gene and my sister doesn’t. I’m convinced my mum, who died aged 64 in 2002 from ovarian cancer, also had a thyroid issue but was never diagnosed as she had many of the symptoms

I also had a bad car accident in 2000 and in 2003 my bloods first revealed my thyroid was out, although this was never reported to me back then It wasn’t until 2008 when my TSH was 36 (0.35-5.50) that I was helped even though I’d been going back and forth to my GP for years with symptoms

I was just interested to understand why our thyroids fail and how antibodies are involved.

Thank you!

[Catou142 in reply to McPammy]

Hello, I was just reading your comment and wondering how you found out about the faulty DIO2 gene? I know there is a DNA test. Did you do it on the NHS or privately? Thank you!

[McPammy in reply to Catou142]

Hi I did it privately through Regenerus Laboratories. For me the positive answer gave me the answer to my question as to why I was poorly converting. My GP was interested in the result and scanned the report into my NHS file. I now get T3 from my NHS Endo.

[Catou142 in reply to McPammy]

Many thanks for this. I was just wondering if your T4/T3 results showed lower T3 levels. Mine seem to be higher than my T4, which is why I have not tried this test so far...My June results were: T4: 13 - T3: 5.06. But could this mean that the T3 is not actually reaching my cells?

[greygoose in reply to McPammy]

Well, they aren't really involved at all. Even with Hashi's.

Not all cases of hypothyroidism are autoimmune. If, for example, you don't have high antibodis, it could be that it was your car crash that damaged your thyroid and made you hypo.

[McPammy in reply to greygoose]

Thanks. I did have high antibodies when tested. I can’t remember the number just now. I always felt that the car accident had done some damage to my thyroid or adrenals. It was a terrifying experience. I was on a flyover broken down on the hard shoulder. I called the RAC who said stay in the car as too dangerous to get out on a flyover. A 38t truck hit us at 60mph. He was travelling on the hard shoulder! Force threw us into the middle lane where we were hit by 5 cars of oncoming traffic. Lucky to be alive I guess. I had panic attacks for years afterwards.

[greygoose in reply to McPammy]

Oh, dear, that must have been terrifying! Ghastly experience.

But, high antibodies would mean autoimmune thyroiditis, as well as any damage done by the car crash.

[MichelleHarris in reply to McPammy]

Thats an awful experience.

Did you need a blood transfusion at all? Just asking as I felt unwell from when I awoke from having a transfusion. I could barely walk for weeks and was fine before it x

[McPammy in reply to MichelleHarris]

No blood transfusion thankfully. Two of us badly injured and our dog ran down the motorway, he was just 6 months old. Half the car was missing, he jumped out. A couple of days later he was brought back to us. Luckily he didn’t get run over and was chipped. Phew! What a nightmare, we all survived albeit a bit disturbed mentally for some years.

[Cooper27]

The theory I've heard, that I like most, is that it often starts with leaky gut, the immune system then starts out by trying to deal with the particles from the gut. Then either it identifies thyroid hormones as being similar to the harmful particles, or finds that they're always present at the same time, so it traces them back to source and tries to wipe out the source.

[helvella Administrator]

I am quite sure this will not be the last word on the how and why of autoimmune disease processes. But it is pretty clear that they are pointing at T-cells rather than antibodies for Hashimoto's (and Ord's - if that term is ever used these days).

T Cell-Mediated Damage

In many autoimmune diseases, lymphocytes infiltrate the anatomical site that contains the autoantigen(s) they recognize, and form structures similar to those found in lymph nodes. These abnormal structures are called “tertiary lymphoid structures” and are the pathological hallmark of tissue autoimmunity. They form in organs that normally do not participate to immune functions and do not have lymphocytes, such as the synovial membrane of the joints, the heart, the thyroid, the brain, or the salivary glands. Although they lack a capsule and the complex architecture seen in lymph nodes, tertiary lymphoid structure mimic the way lymphocytes assemble in lymph nodes, with B cells located in the center and T cells in the periphery.

pathology.jhu.edu/autoimmun...

I find it difficult to see why any leaky gut issues would cause the above processes. But that is quite as likely due to my ignorance as anything else.

Antibodies do, however, mediate Graves disease.

greygoose

Lalatoot

Macey2009

Cooper27

[Cooper27 in reply to helvella]

I'm certainly over-simplifying it, but these are the excerpts that might explain it:

In my research, I came across the work of Dr. Alessio Fasano, a physician and researcher whose work has uncovered the idea that all autoimmune conditions, Hashimoto’s included, involve some degree of intestinal permeability, also referred to as “leaky gut”. His research led him to discover the three-legged stool of autoimmunity that has revolutionized the way we understand autoimmune disease.

The three legs consist of:

1.Genetic predisposition

2.A triggering event

3.Intestinal permeability

.....

But what happens when those intestinal tight junctions become damaged and loose?

Those toxic substances become absorbed into the bloodstream, causing the body to recognize them as foreign invaders. This causes inflammation in the body as it begins to attack the intruders, and eventually leads to autoimmunity.

----

I've extracted the two from this article: thyroidpharmacist.com/artic...

Although it is dated 2018 so maybe research has progressed since.

[helvella Administrator in reply to Cooper27]

Afraid I still cannot see the step by step pathway to Hashimoto's from leaky gut.

She actually says (on the link you quoted):

The difference is the site of the antibody attack. In Hashimoto’s, the antibodies are found to thyroglobulin (in 80%) and thyroid peroxidase (TPO) enzyme (in 95% of people) Hashimoto’s results in hypothyroidism and is usually treated with Synthroid and replacement hormone.

I believe this to be wrong. Bear in mind that at the first fence it fails - because TPO and TG antibodies are found and measured in the bloodstream. Not within the thyroid gland itself. Were they found and measured within the thyroid, that might constitute evidence. (Possibly someone has measured them inside the thyroid, but the clinical test is from the bloodstream.)

What are found within the thyroid are lymphocytes.

[Cooper27 in reply to helvella]

I don't see reference to where the antibodies were found in that comment, so I'm afraid I don't follow. I see it was a reply to a comment at the bottom of the article, and think she was referencing how many with Hashimotos are found to have each antibody.

[helvella Administrator in reply to Cooper27]

Afraid I don't see how that results in her writing: The difference is the site of the antibody attack.

[Cooper27 in reply to helvella]

It seems to be a very clumsily written comment in general but it was just a comment at the bottom of an article, so it isn't the clearest source of info. You and I seem to interpret it differently.

Did you find issue with the article itself?

[greygoose in reply to helvella]

Graces disease? Is one of the symptoms a tendancy to sing to the troops?

I agree with you about the leaky gut. I've always found it difficult to get my hear around that. Especially as there are people who insist it's the only possible cause.

[helvella Administrator in reply to greygoose]

Now corrected!

I certainly didn't mean Euphrosyne, Aglaea and Thalia.

[greygoose in reply to helvella]

Guessing you're too young to understand that joke. I'm such an old, old lady!

[helvella Administrator in reply to greygoose]

Not at all - I did understand. I just went even further back.

[greygoose in reply to helvella]

Aw, Rod, I was paying you a compliment, there! lol

[MichelleHarris in reply to helvella]

That would explain Sjogrens syndrome and RA too then ?

[Lora7again]

It is your own immune system that attacks your thyroid and I don't exactly know why. Mine was caused by a very traumatic event and stress can be a cause because others who have the same as me have confirmed this. My antibodies are very high and have been for a few years now and I have no idea how to lower them. My GP doesn't seem to think they are important and I had to make him put them on my records which he has done.

Just to add there is a massive thunderstorm going on where I live at the moment and this is making me extremely agitated ....

[tattybogle in reply to Lora7again]

Send it up here Lora..... i like watching em.

We had one sat right over the Bay on monday? night. It went on from before midnight to at least 4 am, non stop lightning, with very little 'quiet' thunder . most odd.

Ended up with 22 yr old child in bed with me saying "mummy , is this normal ?!"

hopefully it will move on soon if you're not enjoying it, and leave you cooler.

x

[Lora7again in reply to tattybogle]

I didn't used to mind them and we once had an electric storm when we were on holiday in Corfu and none of the planes could land and were diverted to Italy. However some friends of ours had their house struck by a thunderbolt and it hit their hot water tank and travelled down the wiring blowing up their tv and telephones which actually melted. I am now more wary of thunder storms.

[tattybogle in reply to Lora7again]

Just keep repeating " it's not my turn today , it's not my turn today "

x

[Lora7again in reply to tattybogle]

Ha ha it might be ... I always live each day as if it is my last.

I am just watching Sia's Thunderclouds video she is an Australian singer who has Graves'.

[McPammy in reply to Lora7again]

I can believe that. A lightening Bolt struck my cooker. It blew up! It was at 9.30pm. I was watching tv in my open plan kitchen/living area I was shaking for a couple of days afterwards.

[Lora7again in reply to McPammy]

I'm glad I didn't read this last night because we had a horrendous thunder storm in the middle of the night. The whole house shook and even the cat hid under the bed and I felt like joining him!😱🙀

[McPammy in reply to Lora7again]

It’s funny you should say that. The night my cooker exploded my cat was on my lap. He shot in the air and nearly hit the ceiling. 😻