Parallels: If I look daily at the sorry saga of... - Thyroid UK

Thyroid UK
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Parallels

diogenes
diogenes

If I look daily at the sorry saga of dealing with coronavirus in the UK (protective gear, tests [lack of], dilatory responses to viral progress earlier I'm struck by the similarity of responses to the virus and to smaller but important issues like considering thyroid therapy change. The Times reported how earlier in the wave of infection the relevant committee underplayed its potential severity and have only responded reactively to ongoing events rather than being proactive at the start as other countries have been. I look at the daily delivery by a medical simalcrum of Harry Enfield's Mr Cholmondley-Warner and see in him the epitome of what is wrong with the NHS. The NHS and its advisers have been shown to persistently underestimate the problem by accepting faulty models that neglect many possibilities (like downplaying the role of the fraction of people having the virus but no symptoms being invisible infection donors). Especially the failure to supply adequate protective equipment for hospital staff and to produce kits to measure infection shows the NHS for what it is unfortunately. A turgid, committee-infested leviathan which makes decisions painfully slowly and tries to get away with the minimum effort for a hoped-for but not achieved adequate response. This has been the mantra for a long time with eg hospital bed numbers being considerably diminished over the last years. The government has relied on the "experts" who I think are over-cautious mediocrities of the first water. In the case of the failure to produce kits to measure viral infection, Mr C-M has emphasised the need for the highest quality of development before letting tests out for general use (a case of perfection being the enemy of the good!). Again other countries by having less worries about perfection have used tests that are adequate for their purpose to much greater effect. We stumble on in the UK without proper timely advice or action.

117 Replies
oldestnewest

Well said!

Whereas in the USA Abbott labs is rolling out the first sub 5-minute Covid-19 test that is portable and can be done easily. They have only been working on it for just over a week.

The contrast in speed of response between the US medical companies and our NHS is staggering.

Meanwhile, my step-sons friends and associates have offered their 3-D printing capability to the NHS to make proper protective masks. They cannot even get any response from the NHS.

'Turgid' and 'committee-infested' is spot on!

Great post!

Marz
Marz
in reply to PaulRobinson

Great that the US are swinging into action. I read somewhere that the WHO offered the US testing kits from Germany in the early days which they refused - wanting to make their own. Do you think the UK had the same offer ?

LAHs
LAHs
in reply to Marz

That's interesting, I am glad they are "wanting", that's the first stage towards doing it. We are still waiting for them to do it. It drives me crazy to think that our dear leader cannot enforce the "defense production" act and cause a few thousand masks to be produced. I was all set to make a few for my local hospital but I have run out of elastic and all the elastic shops are closed! Evidently it takes one person 15 minutes to make a perfectly acceptable mask. We are in a mess here too, if that is any consolation.

crimple
crimple
in reply to LAHs

I found some elastic at my local Sainsbury, hanging on the end of a shelf unit with other haberdashery items and such things as scissors and emery boards. Enough in the packet for about 6 masks and used the You tube video for instructions to make.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to Marz

I heard that they were offered and refused.

Can’t be sure that this is reliable info though. At a time when there should be a concerted cross party effort, there is a disappointing amount of anti government propaganda flying about.

Marz
Marz
in reply to Scrumbler

Seeing is believing !

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to Marz

Yes. I do think that.

Totally agree! Too little too late reactive not proactive! Just like thyroid testing and treatment. So worried for our country and people right now 😞💔

Yes I agree. Especially the lack of reporting of symptoms of loss of taste and smell in otherwise asymptomatic infected individuals. They’ve missed a trick here. This could potentially had the impact of massively reducing infection rates if this information was communicated and saving many lives. I spent a couple of days hounding the medical experts on Twitter and also emailing my MP’s about this and got back the unimaginative reply ‘loss of smell and taste has lots of other causes’. Hmm yes. So has fever and cough? Sudden unusual loss of smell and taste in people that haven’t had his before I’d say is quite a marked indicator. Luckily I’d read the ENT reports the day before my son in uni halls texted me saying ‘ Mum a weird thing has happened, I suddenly can’t taste or smell anything. I’ve got a slightly tight throat and feel like I’ve been in a smoky room but otherwise feel well’ He hadn’t heard of the symptom. He’s been isolating himself. Shame many others reporting this unusual symptom haven’t done the same to stop spread as the powers that be are delaying reporting this symptom.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to Hoxo

Yes. The loss of taste and smell is only just beginning to be recognised “not enough evidence yet” - although my daughter in law, a medic herself, reported it as early as February.

Well said. “Turgid and committee infested “ is an apt observation. Nothing ever changes... We’ not in safe hands. For ever dragging their feet... waiting to the last minute and for the obvious to happen. Why?

diogenes
diogenes
in reply to JGBH

Because no-one on these committees dare raise their voice against "the consensus". the lowest common denominator of thinking and action is a symbol of Committee-speak -" I (a member) must survive in my post and I can't be sure if in any discussion I form a minority of one".

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to diogenes

Indeed a most difficult situation. No one should feel threatened in one’s place of work or taking part on committees but it’s all fake, a pretence and one has to tow the line to survive! Yet we think we live in a democracy, that we are free....

This situation is most frightening because so little is known about this virus and it will take at least a year and a half before a vaccine is available, and that’s fast work.

Meanwhile let’s hope we can survive...

Nico101
Nico101
in reply to diogenes

Quite. Just look at what happens to whistleblowers in the NHS.

I've seen the taste and smell symptom fobbed off as "could be many things" and also we aren't told that diarrhoea and sometimes sickness are also symptoms people in Europe mainland were experiencing. Like most things, not everyone gets all the symptoms.

I've also read of sudden severe abdominal pain presenting as one of the first symptoms in some people.

Which quite likely goes on to become either sickness or diarrhoea. They are treating us like simpletons in the UK.

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to FancyPants54

Am afraid that is true! Disgraceful .

Just wondering if the differing symptoms could be in response to the different means of infection - that is, via mouth (touching something with the virus on it then touching the hand to the mouth) resulting in abdominal issues, or via respiration, resulting in breathing/lung issues, etc.

So true! I feel the govt have been quite incompetent. Instead of going on and on about how wonderful the NHS is, they need to get test kits out and people tested en masse. We are constantly chasing this virus, rather than anticipating what it's going to do next. Even seeing Boris, Chris Witty and Matt Hancock all get infected tells you a lot about current methods of 'social distancing'.

As for symptoms, well everyone is different, so why would everyone present with the exact same set of symptoms? It does sadly remind me of the lack of thyroid treatment in this country.

humanbean
humanbean
in reply to Jadzhia

I don't think the government really believes that the NHS is wonderful - any such comment is just bluster and window dressing to try and pull the wool over people's eyes. I think the government are doing what they can to hide the fact that encouraging herd immunity is still the long-term plan, even if that means that many thousands of sick, disabled and elderly people will die. And those deaths will eventually be blamed on the NHS, not government policy.

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to humanbean

I think like you. This government is not doing anything to contain the spread of the virus and is pursuing their “herd spreading “ in a back ended way, pretending to seek a solution. They’re despicable. Most of us see through their uncaring, unconcerned ways and sly behaviour. Not feeling safe at all.

LAHs
LAHs
in reply to JGBH

Yes, I heard that herd immunization doesn't kick in 'till we have 40% of immune people walking around. I was very disappointed to here that. I hate to think that I have to have this awful thing in order to be safe from it in the future.

Nico101
Nico101
in reply to humanbean

I agree. In fact I'd go so far as to say the gov knows the NHS is now rubbish... because they destroyed it. Indeed, every neoliberal gov from Thatcher onwards has worked diligently to sabotage the NHS and welfare state.

Most doctors and nurses work extremely hard, though, and aren't to blame for any of this.

Funny how all the govs from Blair onwards keep saying they will restructure the NHS to get rid of layers of unnecessary management... and then install yet more of their cronies into management roles to ensure the good ship NHS stays on course to hit that iceberg.

I'd say the NHS has hit that iceberg right about now, and that this was all part of the long term plan.

Im not sure that I believe that they are sick

I saw Boris's Twitter video from last night and he definitely looks unwell.

I just said to my partner that as people become cynical about this, he will present some evidence.

I am average intelligence and could see what was going to happen months ago. As a lot of others on here could. I warned my children, one a medical student, was dismissive because his seniors were dismissive. People meant to be a lot more intelligent than me. I have his text reply here 😞. Now he is scared, volunteering, putting himself at great risk.

So now we are in the position that we have an estimated 18 mnths before this innoculation is generally available. (Which will probably be enforced. But, This is the world without one innoculation) And in that time, to achieve 40% herd immunity, a perentage of us will die. Probably me because I’m immuno compromised at the moment, but not on the at risk register, but I am all the same.

The chances of keeping away from this virus for 18 mnths is slim x

I’m a real ‘News Nerd’ and I too could see it coming. Why was no one prepared?

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to Jadzhia

When we had last week’s ‘handclapping for the NHS’ and Boris and Rishi Sunak were televised outside their respective Downing St homes, Sunak followed PM back into Number 10 when it was all over. That was at 8 pm. At midnight on same day, PM was declared positive for Covid-19 so had clearly already been tested.

Or did I imagine all this?

Edit: No. I didn’t imagine it. Just found video of news clip. It infuriates me.

Not posting link as don’t want to make a major issue out of it.

helvella
helvellaAdministrator

In case anyone is unaware, NICE has produced rapid guidelines:

COVID-19 rapid guideline: critical care in adults

NICE guideline [NG159] Published date: March 2020 Last updated: March 2020

nice.org.uk/guidance/ng159

Initially I found an overwhelming stench of smug "didn't we do well getting them out so fast".

Then you look and among the very first things you see are the Publication and Last updated dates. Both March 2020.

In the context of a pandemic with fast-changing circumstances and understanding, the difference between 01/03/2020 and 31/03/2020 could be absolutely gigantic. But we are not allowed to know the actual dates - just the month and year.

There are websites highlighting maybe twenty or more new papers every day. It is not as if we shouldn't expect frequent changes.

I know, sounds like cavilling at a tiny oversight. I know the deeper content is more important. Going further in does reveal the actual dates and summarises updates. But shouldn't a busy medic be able to check at the headline level?

They have also adopted this awkward phrase: the possible likely outcomes. Used several times. Just what is it saying? Can you have impossible likely outcomes?

In other words, it feels as if they really are a rush job and I would want to work through them with a fine tooth comb before following them.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to helvella

I worked with the word ‘outcomes’ for years. ‘Outcomes’ are unknowable until they actually arrive.

I would not want to live in Sweden at the moment because they have done nothing to stop the spread. I do agree the government should have acted quicker but hopefully things will start to slow down once this reaches its peak at Easter or there about. I still think I had this in January and I hope there is a test to find out if I did because I will pay to have it so I actually know. When I was ill in January some of my symptoms were very similar to the coronavirus and I have never suffered with a flu bug like it ... my head ached and as well as my body and the pain in my chest was horrific and I could not breathe. Hopefully everyone is now staying indoors and only going out to buy food because that is the only way to stop this horrible disease.

Have a look at the my last post (still pinned I think) to the Q&A with Dr Jane Greatorex. She mentions the severity of the winter colds this year, that people have really struggled to shake off.

Mine wasn't a cold because I did not have a runny nose. You can read my thread about it if you look on my profile page. I called 111 and they called an ambulance because I could not breathe at one point. I have had nothing as bad as that before and I usually recover after a couple of weeks. This went on for about 6 weeks and two lots of antibiotics did nothing to help. I only started to feel better after I was given steroids.

Here is the thread

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

Justiina
Justiina
in reply to Lora7again

By all means I try not to sound like I have a use for a tinfoil hat but... oh the dramatic but 😄 my parents both had very nasty flu after the influenza shot on November. My dad was actually quite ill with all covid19 symptoms. Later on I read leaflet of the flu shot stating side effect likes vulnerability to corona virus.

I did not get sick even though I spent time with both. And I did not get the flu shot. They both fell sick a week after each injection. So it's possible why seasonal cold this year could have been worse is because of flu shot making vulnerable to other viruses. So maybe the flu shot increased the likelihood of catching some flu strain you had immunity but the shot affected it and you caught a flu that your system think was new to it.

I don't know but... again... how come there is no epidemic of influenza this year since starting the more effective flu shots but other illnesses come with vengeance.

Lora7again
Lora7again
in reply to Justiina

I don't have the flu shot because I was made to have it when I worked for the NHS. I just know that I have never had a flu bug that made me be admitted to hospital for a chest x-ray. My GP did not know why I was still ill after 5 weeks of coughing and 2 lots of antibiotics. I now know the coronavirus has been here since January or even longer. I am not saying I had it but I would like to have the test just to check if I did.

Justiina
Justiina
in reply to Lora7again

Yeah I say anything is possible. And since people have had worse seasonal flu (with or without flu shot) this year and then there is this virus, it's more likely it has been around far longer. I say more likely because I feel it's too weird if all type of viruses suddenly start causing worse infection.

Gcart
Gcart
in reply to Lora7again

I was in hospital in February.

There was a lady next room with this dry cough . She sounded exhausted and I thought it was a strange sounding cough , unlike the usual productive type with chest infections. Her bed was empty next day . No way could she have gone home .

After discharge I developed flu like illness .

Totally floored me. Had to stay in bed as I couldn’t do anything. For 2 days and nights the worst lung pain I have ever had . I said to my husband never experienced anything like it .

I think I too had it .

LAHs
LAHs
in reply to Lora7again

True Health Labs (THLs), the one I use, is offering a test. I was thinking of getting it but you want to be looking for antibodies, not just if you are positive because by now you will test negative. I am not sure if THLs is offering the antibodies test, I will call and ask.

Oh and THLs is a US company but they operate in Europe and UK, they are not as well known a medichecks etc. but, well, they are offering a CV test.

Sweeden has been preparing for many years for this eventuality. Their citizens know what to do in many eventualities of ‘what if....’

amp.theguardian.com/world/c...

on the flipside..... using just common sense and speedyness......I believe a little Gin company someplace have been using the Still and some chemicals to make effective hand sanitise_ and have al_eady sent loads out to places that need it......... I think they not even asking 4 payment ,

Mmmm.... thinking i may ask them to manage my TSH instead of the nhs policymake_s ! ~T4/T3/Gin combo anyone?

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator

South Korea has lead the way .......testing rapidly hundreds of thousands more of their population

theguardian.com/commentisfr...

bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-can...

How do Covid-19 deaths compare with the annual flu virus ? Also why do they not publish a breakdown of deaths. In Italy 99% of deaths were mostly elderly with at least 2 underlying conditions. Over 50% of those had up to 4 underlying conditions. This was after searching medical records - albeit a small number.

It seems ACE inhibitors - taken by so many of the elderly - present an issue with the virus and the route it takes into the body - particularly the lungs. As explained in Dr Kendrick's latest Blog.

The recorded number of deaths does not include those dying away from hospitals - so far from a true figure. So what is going on. I wonder how unwell BJ is - or is he hiding away from the problem. Seems strange to me he and MH are the only two confirmed cases ????

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to Marz

Don’t believe BJ has the virus. It’s another lie, his usual escape route when unable to cope with responsibility.

I don’t feel safe in this government’s hands. Do not intend to be political but it’s difficult to avoid it at the moment when nothing is being done, or done too late. After all the government didn’t follow WHO’s strong recommendations. The arrogance and ignorance is incredible. How can one feel safe with such an attitude to people’s lives?

Marz
Marz
in reply to JGBH

Would love to know who the "experts" are/were. Hopefully it wasn't just Domimic Cummins - as he was quoted - rightly or wrongly - that they should let old people die - sigh ! I have now decided I am not old 🥰🥰

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to Marz

They had 2 “experts” flanking BJ, neither of them is a virologist and I am in no doubt they were told by the puppet master what to say. Yes the unelected Cummings!!

Thank goodness a brilliant professor from Imperial College wrote to Johnson and the press to make it very clear their lack of action would result in an incredible number of unnecessary and avoidable deaths. Therefore they had to be seen to take positive actions in order to contain the virus.

The only experts to be trusted are the scientists working and running the WHO. This government chose to ignore them... Stupid arrogant people who are totally incompetent.

Like many I am in a very high risk group, taking immunosuppressants that destroy T cells so very depressed immune system plus taking steroids. Am very concerned.

Going mad alone in total confinement....

This situation happened very quickly in Europe but I understand many scientists were warned about a dreadful epidemic at least 2 years ago. So why didn’t the government prepare for this? I let you make your own conclusions.

Marz
Marz
in reply to JGBH

Remember fear and stress makes us poorly too. Be safe - be well 😷

LAHs
LAHs
in reply to JGBH

"Going mad alone in total confinement...." you are not alone, the same thing is happening all over the world. I am getting by by doing all the things I have always meant to do but could always find an excuse not to, particularly a trip to the shops to buy something (anything! sometimes). That avenue of pleasure has been shut down and constricted to bread, milk, and other foodstuffs......boring!

So, I have sewn up the holes in more T-shirts and pants that I can count. I have de-tangled the fur of my fur baby called Tangles, I have installed a new TV over my 45 year old Sony, I have pulled a lot of weeds and tidied up some cupboards, you get the picture.

Hang in there, this too shall pass. Unless, of course, it follows the pattern of the black death which I believe hung on for 100 years. (No, seriously, don't think about that).

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to LAHs

Well yes it’s happening to many people.

It’s not so bad if you can go out to the shops for food, go for the daily walk. etc. the sort of things people who haven’t got a seriously compromised immune system can do. I could cope with that.

However what I referred to was total confinement: not allowed to go out at all, which is my case and that of many people. It has to be done, don’t want risking getting the virus.

Also i’m in a great deal of pain and sometimes can barely walk, so cannot even spend time gardening- which I loved to do. So not easy.

Enjoy your semi freedom.

Keep well.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to JGBH

It’s a good time to remember the many people who because of conditions which involve chronic fatigue, mobility issues, mental health or other medical problems never leave their home at all.

For them, this is not the ‘new normal’. This is normal.

A salutary reminder when tempted to feel sorry for oneself.

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to Scrumbler

It’s not exactly “feeling sorry for oneself”. We’re all have different experiences and support or lack of it.

My life stopped aged late 30s because of serious health problems. No need to justify my situation. Am 73 now. I lost my job, my dignity, my life as a productive person as many do.

I feel for all who have to cope with chronic pain and are unable to do anything at all in their daily lives, just trying remaining independent somehow for as long as possible.

Take care.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to JGBH

Thank you for removing your other post and responding in a more conciliatory way. I am truly sorry for the position you are in, your health conditions and your response to isolation. I empathise entirely.

We all have our stories to tell and it’s only when we walk in another’s shoes that we know theirs.

I wish you well JGBH. If ever you want a chat in these dark times, feel free to PM.

Kindest regards

Stay safe 😊

JGBH
JGBH
in reply to Scrumbler

Hi Scrumbler,

When I first replied I was very upset and it was an emotional response, rather than my usual considered way of dealing with things.

I then decided to check your profile- which I should have done before replying- it’s when I decided to remove my reply and replace it with a more appropriate one.

Many of us are fighting our daily battles.... This coronavirus certainly does not help, but the situation is out of our hands. All we can do is being sensible and responsible. Dark times indeed! My grandson works and lives in London and I worry.

Thank you for your pm offer. Feel free to contact me too in that manner.

Best wishes and take care.🌹

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to JGBH

Don’t worry about anything JGBH. You just take care of yourself. I’d enjoy having a chat via PM anytime you like.

Take care

❤️

Mamapea1
Mamapea1
in reply to Marz

Me too, despite my outward appearance...in fact when I heard that, I developed a definite spring in my step!💃😂

Marz
Marz
in reply to Mamapea1

Excellent ! I have read that lifespan can be roughly calculated by the speed of our walking - yikes ! ▪︎☆

I also had a good laugh at some of the graphs and conclusions that were being shown as "proof" of something or other.

One graph showed the lines elevating at perhaps 35 degrees and being told that this was far better than the lines being at 80 degrees or whatever. It was so obvious that by altering the intervals on the x and y axis, you could show the elevation at whatever rate you want. The words used were unbelievably naive and stupid.

The death rate has gone up by 563 in 24 hours which is very alarming.

LAHs
LAHs
in reply to Lora7again

Yes, those figures shock me too. We had one a couple of days ago (Saturday I think) when almost 1000 died in New York. That knocked me out for the whole day and even now gives me a sinking feeling and takes my breath away when I dwell upon it.

I can only conclude the “herd immunity” plan & letting it spread uncontrolled at the most crucial time for its containment has done little but exacerbate the situation and the results of the reactive approach we see unfolding before us, leaving so many people in the front line unprotected. There are closed parallels with the treatment of thyroid disorder - let it get out of control before doing anything and then what is done leaves a lot to be desired.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to TSH110

I understand your point but if no immunity is acquired it is arguable that this situation cannot be resolved.

I understand that there are plans for data to be used to select ‘low spread’ areas and slightly relax isolation measures in those areas for a very short time. Then to move on to another area - and so on.

This in an attempt to address immunity issues.

TSH110
TSH110
in reply to Scrumbler

Yes we are in even deeper trouble if getting it does not give any immunity to stop us getting it again. I wonder if that would rendered a vaccine an impossible dream too. I know malaria has foxed the medical people trying to get a vaccine for it for decades and to date, although I realise it is not caused by a virus.

Would that low spread plan be a way to keep the economy running? Do you have more info about how that would work a link I could follow, maybe? I will have a search on line too to try and find out more

And still the borders remain open. So influx of new cases freely moving around.

No PPE, no testing. They're going to get it, so said the MP today, really they are. Hence no idea of actual numbers at all.

Supermarkets acting as super spreading hubs. First with the panic buying now getting people to stand queuing in close proximity. Stranger's you'd otherwise pass quickly.

One would think they were trying to increase the spread.

Supermarkets that I shop in are keeping to the two metre distance rule for queues both outside and at the checkouts. The difficulty I find is dodging other customers and online shopping pickers in the aisles.

The point was about being stationary for a period of time. You've no idea what you or the other person is carrying. ( you might have heard we have no testing)

Dodging people is better, unless they cough/sneeze over you.

Staying 2m apart is difficult to maintain, especially for some. I went to a few supermarkets and saw 'how' people were queuing, starvation is better.

Don't forget 2m isn't some magic inoculation against the virus.

Our central heating broke down beyond repair last Friday. We live 1000 feet above sea level, so it's cold and we're still having snow. We've had two plumbers in the house - one was the emergency guy, and the other was our regular heating engineer. The latter had to enter every room in the house, including the attic, in order to work out the pipe runs in our very old house. We all did our best, but it was impossible to maintain 'proper' distancing.

Had that situation too, opted not to have boiler inspected. But have plenty of heaters.

We had a serious leak, unfortunately.

This mornings news is informing us that scientists advise that a 6 metre distance is necessary. If this is the case then it would seem that total lockdown would be the only solution. Very worrying.

Like that for me too

Asda aren’t doing this.

Asda is far enough away from me to be classed as unnecessary travel, so can't comment on that shop in my location :) But I think things are changing on a daily basis. Today, my local Aldi are being much more strict than they have previously been. They were severely limiting the number of people allowed in the shop, and only one person from a family can go in now. This was not the case when I went there last week. I suspect rules are being tightened as it becomes more obvious that this isn't gong away any time soon.

Queuing outside isn't so bad when the weather is dry, but it's going to be awful on rainy days.

You’re right. Things are changing on a daily basis in every respect. Wet weather is going to bring an added misery to all aspects of the current situation.

TSH110
TSH110
in reply to StitchFairy

The other big problem is the people working in there are being exposed to considerable risk, most, if not all, are poorly paid and have no choice but to keep working. I agree they are the new social gatherings and one conduit for the virus to continue spreading. I see there is now a reassessment of mask wearing which suddenly appears to be more protective than first claimed. As a cough can go 6m and a sneeze 8m, keeping 2m away is not going to stop that lot hitting your airways. A mask helps deflects it apparently. If NHS staff can’t even get masks there’s no chance for the rest of us unless we go diy.

StitchFairy
StitchFairy
in reply to TSH110

I read somewhere that Tesco and M&S are paying their working staff extra, so perhaps not quite so poorly paid as before. But I'm very grateful indeed that they are going in to work, otherwise the rest of us wouldn't be able to shop for food. It's just difficult to focus on loading your basket with what you went in to get, whilst at the same time doing a dance around the other people in the very bit of the aisle that you also need to get to!

TSH110
TSH110
in reply to StitchFairy

15% extra I believe at M&S they are usually more generous - I call that an insult. But its better than nothing. We’d be really lost without them for sure. I agree about the new shopping - its almost like an art form - as for taking at 2m distance, that is very unnatural indeed.

Scrumbler
Scrumbler
in reply to TSH110

The masks available to the public are only partially effective - and even then for two hours mask. Better than nothing when shopping though.

In case anyone wants some context for the number of deaths from all causes in England in January and February over 2016 - 2020, these numbers may give some comfort.

Source : ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total Deaths from all causes in England - January 2016 : 44, 387

Total Deaths from all causes in England - January 2017 : 53,675

Total Deaths from all causes in England - January 2018 : 60,075

Total Deaths from all causes in England - January 2019 : 50,383

Total Deaths from all causes in England - January 2020 : 53, 045

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total Deaths from all causes in England - February 2016 :43,033

Total Deaths from all causes in England - February 2017 : 44, 815

Total Deaths from all causes in England - February 2018 : 45, 918

Total Deaths from all causes in England - February 2019 : 42, 848

Total Deaths from all causes in England - February 2020 : 40, 806

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the March 2020 numbers are available it will be interesting to compare those too.

Hillwoman
Hillwoman
in reply to humanbean

Thanks. Very interesting. Given the lack of testing, trying to work out the real percentage of deaths from Covid-19 is a fool's errand, so this is the next best thing.

Marz
Marz
in reply to humanbean

Thank you HB for your efforts - I would have just posted the link !! I kept reading these comparable figures in various places - but not all together like your post. Brilliant ! Should put things into perspective for many ... Have seen Winter Flu figures annually - also gov.uk I believe ...

humanbean
humanbean
in reply to Marz

Hillwoman Marz

One of the things that bothers me a lot about the way governments all over the world communicate with their citizens (and this isn't new) is the way that they like to spread fear. And I'm sure that happens because frightened people are easier to control than people who aren't terrified.

As a single example, not related to coronavirus, the fear instilled into people by doctors and governments when patients refuse to take statins just disgusts me.

You would think, based on so much coverage about statins, that people never die of anything else.

And of course, in the thyroid world the fear of a low TSH helps to keep so many patients sick.

Marz
Marz
in reply to humanbean

Sadly I have been reading loads about the fear factor and how it played out with other threatened pandemics - mainly state side.

I read that we are being lead like lambs to slaughter towards mandatory vaccination for this virus. Our compliance and tolerance is being tested.

Although I have my alternative thought processes churning away it is still so very shocking that Doctors and Nurses are being sent into the trenches - ill-equipped and ill-prepared. Do we not learn anything from history ? It is heart breaking ...

Perhaps people will question more after all this - hopefully.

Then we have the economy 😎

humanbean
humanbean
in reply to Marz

Compulsory vaccination really does frighten me!

TSH110
TSH110
in reply to humanbean

It also frightens the drug companies they can make so much more money out of medicines than vaccines

humanbean
humanbean
in reply to TSH110

But drug companies can earn loads of money from vaccines and the regulations re: testing and safety are diabolical. Also, drug companies are not held liable for vaccine damage. Instead, anyone affected has to get damages from the government and getting governments to accept liability for anything is never easy.

Note : I am probably getting UK and US regulations regarding vaccines and vaccine damage muddled up.

It has recently come to light that drug companies that do vaccine testing have been using placebos that are identical to vaccines, just without the active ingredient. So, both vaccine and "placebo" will contain aluminium, for example. When test subjects react to the "placebo" this is given as reason to dismiss what they say about the dangers of the vaccine.

I'm not anti-vaccine. I'm just anti-vaccine when the risk of death or permanent incapacity after infection is much lower than the risks from the vaccine itself. Another doubt I have is... If vaccines are all wonderful and risk-free, as we are supposed to believe then the immune system never really gets tested by normal life very much... What happens when an untried immune system meets something truly novel - like Covid-19 for example.

TSH110
TSH110
in reply to humanbean

Yes I agree but only when they get huge back handers and obscene exclusive rights and zero price controls for marketing. As reported here:

barrons.com/articles/corona...

And this published a bit later when they were enticed to get on the vaccine bandwagon

theintercept.com/2020/03/13...

I am pro vaccination so we might not fully agree on that. But I think what you say is very reasonable I do believe they affect some people adversely and those people should be compensated without question. I also believe that this is an inevitable consequence of mass vaccination and to claim they are 100% safe is a total lie. Also no good having one that does more harm than good. I lived in a third world country where 20% of the population was disabled many with untreated polio and TB and was deeply shocked at what I saw. Life was made doubly hard and it was hard enough for the majority already. I remember children at my primary school with the same withered legs encased in callipers and the cruel bullying they had to endure - all that stuff really haunts me. I fear Big Pharma could be encouraging the anti vaccine movement whilst making billions out of it once bribed to come on board. They seem utterly without scruples whatever you believe about the merits or otherwise of vaccination. and any vested interests that lie behind the view points expressed. They just don’t care about health, only making grotesque profit out of pretending to want to improve it. I wish we had a different system of medical advancement and development that had health improvement at its core not profit.

humanbean
humanbean
in reply to TSH110

I'm neither pro or anti-vaccine. Before getting any vaccine I would want to read as much about it as I could and then decide whether to have it or not. As someone who has fairly marked hearing problems as a result of measles I would never reject a vaccine for anything without researching it first. But the measles vaccine didn't exist when I was very young.

TSH110
TSH110
in reply to humanbean

Yes I though measles could affect hearing. Sorry you were affected by it. I have permanent tinnitus and went quite hard of hearing but it greatly improved once I started on thyroid replacement therapy, which was a pheasant surprise. Luckily, I can ignore the tinnitus I must admit I have not yet tried the flu vaccine I never know if it might be better to fight it and get resistance or take the jab. I did hear in the long run you gain more immunity without having the vaccine. I was hit badly by flu like lurgies last year and nearly caved in to the jab last winter but seem to have been ok so far. I am fortunate in that I have only felt really bad with yellow fever vaccine - it’s a nasty one apparently, but so is the disease if you have the misfortune to get it.

Jadzhia
Jadzhia
in reply to Marz

I will avoid it any way I can!

LyraBelasqua
LyraBelasqua
in reply to Marz

The other thing that is making me squirm slightly is the "protect the NHS" mantra. I understand the thought behind it: that we must protect our hospitals from becoming overwhelmed. But in the meantime, the NHS is being systematically dismantled, much of its usual work put on hold for months. But the people who are unwell for other reasons than covid aren't going to just go away (though I suspect there might be some who will do better without medical intervention!).

The backlog once this is over will be tremendous and very hard to sort out. I wonder how much of the NHS will be left standing at the end of it.

Marz
Marz
in reply to LyraBelasqua

Worrying times for people who need help now. On the other hand it could wean those off their GP's who mis-use them ...

When I watch TV programmes where talented surgeons are fighting for their department in a room full of accountants I am shouting at the screen - give him the money ! It is heartbreaking that cuts are being made for a short term gain as they care not about the future ...

This is the worry for many patients indeed - Covid-19 is being prioritised above everything else. Cancer patients are having their medication changed to oral medications so they do not need to come to the hospital. Whilst this seem like a sensible precaution, that oral medication might not be the right treatment for that particular patient.

Is the risk of catching Covid-19 outweighing the risk of dying of cancer because you cannot get the right treatment? Its not an easy question, but I just fear that a lot of cancer patients will become collateral damage in all this mess.

These have been my thoughts entirely. And add to those the people who are becoming ill, unreferred and undiagnosed. It doesn’t bear thinking about.

Absolutely.

This article in Pulse is very sad :

pulsetoday.co.uk/views/blog...

In order to read both pages I have to clear cookies in between each new page I read, and then refresh the page.

Thank you for the link.

It is truly horrifying.

Hillwoman
Hillwoman
in reply to humanbean

Absolutely agree!

Tricks of the trade. Its the same with cowboy builders. They frighten you with horror scenarios, getting you to agree any figure to get it sorted.

In a few short weeks the country is virtually unanimous in wanting a policed lock down. Talk about willingly giving up civil liberties with unreliable data to back it up. Just fear of an invisible enemy, while the one in plain sight pillages our rights away.

Nico101
Nico101
in reply to fibrofoggy

But these are the same members of the public that willingly allow the likes of Google to spy on them via Siris and Alexas and 'smart' appliances. The same people that like to tell everyone, if you've have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'.

The world has been in preparation for another financial meltdown for about 2 years. I just wasn't sure how they intended to do it. Now we know.

If govs really cared about the public, they would have isolated the elderly and sick and made sure they had access to food and medications and they would have been a priority. The rest of the population, who seem to get very mild to middling symptoms (I guess depending on the state of their fitness and immune systems) should be free to go about their normal lives. There is no need for this hysteria.

Protect those who need it and look after them well.

Let everyone else get on with life, so their businesses, jobs, and livelihoods are not destroyed. But then, that would defeat the object.

The rate we're going, only the mega corporations will still be standing at the end of this. I'm also concerned about the establishment trying to do away with cash use, and as others have said, implementing mandatory vaccinations.

The media is the biggest culprit for gov propaganda and creating hysteria. The amount of headlines stating things like: fit and healthy 23 year-old man/woman dies from Coronavirus, when they have no idea:

a) What that person's immune system was like (going without sleep, partying, taking drugs and drinking to excess, a diet full of sugary drinks, hard exercise sessions, all negatively affect the immune system temporarily - which is unfortunate if you happen to catch the virus at that time), even if the had no illnesses

b) whether it even WAS the Corona virus, since they don't hang about to get the actual facts confirmed by an autopsy

There was a headline story a few days ago along these lines in the Mirror and elsewhere. Two days later the media admitted the young woman in question didn't die of Coronavirus after all - although that version of the story was not headlines news, but buried about half way down the online site.

If the media told me the time in a room full of clocks, I'd still check the time myself.

As others have said, we're being fed constant fear and propaganda in order to curtail our hard-won civil liberties and move us towards accepting a police state (look at their outrageous behaviour during the lockdown) and NWO in 2030.

fibrofoggy
fibrofoggy
in reply to Nico101

A brave new world.

Nico101
Nico101
in reply to fibrofoggy

Indeed. Let's just hope this wakes the sheeple up once the dust has settled. Sadly, I doubt it. We've just seen the masses at their worst: greedy, selfish, and foolhardy. Doesn't bode well if their shopping habits are anything to go by. The public doesn't seem to give a flying f*ck about the elderly, sick, and disabled.

fibrofoggy
fibrofoggy
in reply to Nico101

Some people do and volunteer to help others.

Nico101
Nico101
in reply to fibrofoggy

Yes, they do. Shame so many people aren't like that.

telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0...

The 2016 Cygnus report that the government did nothing about! Leaving the NHS, the country in dire straits.

I was in my local hospital for a procedure a week ago and it was scary to see the lack of communications and direction that the staff had. They didn’t have enough PPE and were questioning how and when to use it, having been given varying and conflicting information. All of which seemed pointless. My thoughts were what they had was about as much use as a wine cork to replace the Hoover dam! They were simply and frighteningly at risk and therefore a risk themselves. Through no fault of their own. Who else would be expected to work under these conditions?

The Gov have had warnings about this type of virus, they have stuck their heads in the sand to avoid dealing with it, in a bid to ‘cut costs’. Through the systematic destruction of the NHS through lack of funding, too much bureaucracy, too many ‘layers’ creating too many managers, none of which can agree! And too much wasting time and money through poor organisation, has put each and every one of us at serious risk.

When this is all over they need to be brought to task over this. Maybe now ‘they’ whoever is running the country, will realise that cutting corners on health is false economics! Along with underfunding of education (if this shower is the best we can do!!) and defence. Foolhardy.

Agreed. The lack of testing has resulted in us learning very little about how fast and widely it was spreading. This was so frustrating in its early stages. Similarly, the early decision that by keeping everything open would confer herd immunity and flatten the curve seemed ludicrous. You should write a letter to The Times.

For a government and prime minister to constantly liken the situation to a war, you'd have thought they'd have been building up the ammunition and resources while they saw the enemy approaching.

And it's not as if they didn't know what to expect when the enemy arrived on our shores. It had been blatantly presented on our screens for over a month. Unlike China having to respond to a novel scenario, the government had every opportunity to be proactive early on.

Crucially, scientists and medics in China wrote a rapid response paper on 30 January which they distributed worldwide. The paper has been on the BMJ website since early February as far as I can tell and accessible to everyone.

The paper provides, in terrifying and graphic detail, what China faced in treating those with the virus and in describing the symptoms.

The authors are at great pains to provide extremely helpful advice to the medical profession worldwide in what they need to do.

So, having read this paper, I was completely baffled by and found incredulous the recent government statements that China had been keeping information hidden. Classic case of shifting blame to cover one's own inadequacies.

With regards to herd immunity, that smacks of expected wartime collateral, to continue with the government's analogy.

It was this philosophy that led to BJ to encourage (so-called healthy) people to go out into the community to catch the virus. But he then suddenly did a volte face, encouraging people to do the opposite i.e. social distance. So how can the government, after switching experts and statistical input, expect the populace to also suddenly volte face? The mixed messages and rapid turnaround in advice was breathtaking - provided you had any breath left.

And then, surprise surprise, the government found itself having to force a lockdown because people weren't complying.

What did they expect when people were told to do one thing one day and the opposite the other?

Mention has been made of Sweden. From what I can gather, the reason they are not in lockdown is because the messages have been much clearer and the people have been more compliant. Time will tell.

One thing I think we can look forward to with trepidation after coronavirus ... The NHS, and specifically GP services, will never be the same again. I read this thread from Twitter written by a GP :

twitter.com/MartinRCGP/stat...

and the thread is mainly populated by doctors celebrating the changes that have happened as a result of Covid-19. The chances that we (i.e. patients) will benefit from those changes strike me as not being high.

For anyone that doesn't have a Twitter account, it isn't necessary to have one to read public threads like the one I linked to.

Marz
Marz
in reply to humanbean

The NHS version of Ask Alexa is on it's way- ask Matt Hancock 😷

humanbean
humanbean
in reply to Marz

But how can that be? He's sick (or, more likely, in hiding to avoid difficult questions) ;)

Marz
Marz
in reply to humanbean

He started the project sometime ago ! Historically Health Ministers go on to big jobs in the Private Health sector ...

I have to say Matt Hancock has made a good recovery from the coronavirus after testing positive which has cheered me up a lot.

made a good recovery from the coronavirus after testing positive which has cheered me up a lot.

It isn't cheering me up, I'm afraid. It's making me very suspicious that his illness was "political" rather than real.

I dunno sometimes people test positive but they don't have any symptoms so I don't think he would risk lying in this instance. I don't actually like him after my local MP said she had asked him about the treatment of thyroid disease and got fobbed off as usual. You can read the reply I got on my profile page.

Marz
Marz
in reply to humanbean

I have read that even the common cold is a Corona virus ! One of the tests can show a Corona virus - but which one ?

Nico101
Nico101
in reply to Lora7again

Sarcasm?

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