'Calm down dear, it’s only an aneurysm’ – why d... - Thyroid UK

Thyroid UK

141,269 members166,541 posts

'Calm down dear, it’s only an aneurysm’ – why doctors need to take women’s pain seriously

helvella profile image
helvellaAdministrator
16 Replies

Following from several other posts about gender bias, I offer this:

'Calm down dear, it’s only an aneurysm’ – why doctors need to take women’s pain seriously

Female heart-attack victims are half as likely as men to receive treatment. Is ‘hysteria’ still being used to deny women adequate medical care?

Scepticism toward the latter is costing lives: according to a study led by the University of Edinburgh and funded by the British Heart Foundation, women who had gone to A&E after experiencing chest pain (and were later found to be suffering from a heart attack) were half as likely as men to receive the recommended medical treatment. The research comes after it was revealed that entering identical heart symptoms for women and men on Babylon, a virtual GP app praised by the health secretary, Matt Hancock, resulted in different diagnoses. Its artificial intelligence tells a 60-year-old female smoker who reports chest pain and nausea that she is simply having a panic attack. A 60-year-old male smoker with exactly the same symptoms is told that he might be having a heart attack and is advised to go to A&E. Here’s hoping that the researchers from the University of Edinburgh are predominantly male, so that their research is taken more seriously than the anguished cries of women that have rung out since the beginning of time.

Rest of article freely available here:

theguardian.com/commentisfr...

Babylon health have published their own blog in response to the media coverage. Some points I take from it:

First of all, our Symptom Checker is absolutely not a diagnostic tool and we are very clear about this.

It doesn't matter how clear you are, people, including doctors, treat it as a diagnostic tool.

As soon as a doctor sees the short list, they will influenced by what is shown. Conscious attempts to avoid doing so almost certainly can't eliminate the impact of seeing the list.

Our Symptom Checker works on the basis of probability. It makes calculations based on lots of epidemiological data from a huge number of research studies. It then comes up with hundreds of possible matching conditions, from which it displays those which most closely match the symptoms entered.

As soon as Babylon applies statistics to select "best matching" from the list of all conditions, it is making decisions which are beyond questionable, they are life-threatening.

Even if we assume there are no issues with the data, best match is a simplistic, naive, unacceptable basis for making a selection.

I suggest (from my brain, not derived from research) that first cut perhaps should be identifying those conditions which need imemdiate action.

If the probabilities are derived from research, including collation of medicial statistics, it obviously is predicated on the quality of the research. Any bias in the research might well be reinforced rather than eliminated.

It has been a staple of medical literature (as in stories rather than research) that someone is a seemingly obvious case of X but ends up actually having Y, often due to some special factor Z. No, not a cold, but some rare infection because they had been in contact with some far off exotic country where Y occurs. What population statistics do is make it less and less likely that this unusual case will ever be diagnosed. Hence the use of such cases for dramatic effect. Usually hero doctor.

In this case, ever having been diagnosed with anxiety or depression (seemingly regardless of accuracy or identification of cause), would push heart attack off the "most likely" list and raise "panic attack".

I suggest that anxiety or depression caused by organic disease (e.g. hypothyroidism) which is now adequately treated or cured (we can hope!) is almost certainly inappropriate to be used as a guide to whether the person is now suffering heart attack or panic attack.

A patient who is familiar with panic attacks just might be particularly aware that they are currently suffering something which is not the same as their "usual" panic attacks. In that case, the simple fact that they are asking for medical help should be an indicator that is isn't a panic attack.

For every women told she is having a panic attack when really in the throes of a heart attack, how many will actually have the diagnosis reversed? That is, will the misdiagnosis be identified in such a way as to feedback into Babylon (or any other system) and apply a correction?

This goes down the same route as so much else, population statistics being applied to an individual case.

One of the reasons you can prove anything in economics is that so much that is written invokes ceteris paribus. Medicine often avoids saying that - often it appears to ignore it completely. Or assume everyone reading is applying it without having been told.

(Ceteris paribus or caeteris paribus is a Latin phrase meaning "other things equal"; English translations of the phrase include "all other things being equal" or "other things held constant" or "all else unchanged". From wiki.)

So, a woman aged 59 has a risk of a 44 year old man, all other things being equal.

Sorry folks, but there are so many differences between a 59 year old woman and a 44 year old man, this is fatuous. I understand this sort of statement as an illustration. But I simply do not believe you can make anything useful out of that statement.

Full blog freely available here:

babylonhealth.com/blog/tech...

Let is not forget that whatever we are, these issues can be critical. Until recently, there was virtually no mention, anywhere, of breast cancer in males. Statistically very much less likely but, if the patient in front of the doctor has it, that statistic is utterly irrelevant.

[ Have edited to add a few bits and correct some dreadful typing. ]

Written by
helvella profile image
helvella
Administrator
To view profiles and participate in discussions please or .
Read more about...
16 Replies
bantam12 profile image
bantam12

This bias is experienced all the time and many members on the heart forums are having to deal with it.

Any woman with cardiac symptoms has an uphill battle on her hands to be taken seriously as Cardiologists are all to quick to blame anything and everything rather than actually accept it might just be a heart problem.

Its taken me 6 years to finally get a diagnosis and possibly (not convinced yet!) some treatment.

helvella profile image
helvellaAdministrator in reply tobantam12

So I understand.

And I am quite sure that the bias infects everything in medicine (and beyond).

Best of luck to you in getting treated. (Shouldn't need luck, but it does.)

bantam12 profile image
bantam12 in reply tohelvella

Thanks, my Cardiologist has referred me on to see a new Electrophysiologist so I may well have another battle to fight ! I believe it has been shown that Cardiology is the worst for gender bias and it's been known for years yet still nothing changes 😞

JGBH profile image
JGBH in reply tobantam12

I understand all the research carried out regarding heart problems had only included male criteria and symptoms... so when a female presents with certain symptoms reflecting possible heart disease they are dismissed!

It’s also due to the fact women’s symptoms can and do differ from males’ symptoms recorded during the research so doctors ignore the risk of heart problems in women nearly every time with dire consequences. STILL they seem reluctant to accept the important differences which could save so many women ‘s lives. Why???

I actually told a consultant about this disparity, that all research and diagnostic tools were geared for men, that women ‘s symptoms are often different. He agreed but why don’t they then change their attitude ? Bad medicine again!

nightingale-56 profile image
nightingale-56 in reply tobantam12

bantam12 rather like Endocrinologists are all too quick to blame anything and everything rather than actually acceepting that it is attributable to thyroid problems eh! Goodluck with getting a correct diagnosis and treatment for same.

bantam12 profile image
bantam12 in reply tonightingale-56

The difference is Endos ignore symptoms in men and women whereas Cardiologists ignore only women, if a man has heart problems then tests and treatment usually happen quickly but generally not so for women.

Thanks for the good luck, think I might need it !

Cooper27 profile image
Cooper27

Well I'll just base my answer on this: in the week before she died, my mum visited her GP 3 times, complaining of breathlessness, fatigue, joint pain and weakness (suspecting another pulmonary embolism, which she told the doctor) and was told she had a virus and should "go home and get some rest". It was actually heart failure. This study doesn't surprise me one bit!

DippyDame profile image
DippyDame in reply toCooper27

Many years ago my mother suffered pain and nausea, I called a GP when I arrived home from work, she looked grey - I feared a heart attack - he sent her to a cottage hospital where she was given "bed rest" and no tests or medication. She died two days later at age 64. My father had died 3 months previously so she was already heartbroken. I was 29 at the time, clueless about medical matters and believed that "doctor knows best".

Knowing what I now know I suspect she also had a thyroid problem......retrospectively I can join up the dots!

She didn't smoke,drink, lead a sedentary life or eat a poor diet but I suspect she was viewed (in my opinion) as neurotic by a chauvinistic GP...she would not have dared to question his actions.

How many women like our mothers have been buried and taken the truth about their demise with them.....we can only guess!

Plus .ça change....

Cooper27 profile image
Cooper27 in reply toDippyDame

It's awful :(

My mum did have thyroid issues, but knowing what I know now, I think she was undermedicated most of the time, there are so many signs.

In some ways I wish we had developed our health issues sooner, so we could have helped them. Whether it would have helped or not is another matter!

DippyDame profile image
DippyDame in reply toCooper27

It's always harder once we know things could have been different.

The Tardis is what we need!

Take care.

nightingale-56 profile image
nightingale-56 in reply toDippyDame

My Mum did have hypothyroidism, but was told it was borderline so she did not push things to be medicated. She also, at the same time, was diagnosed as having Type 2 Diabetes. I wish I knew then what I know now!

DippyDame profile image
DippyDame in reply tonightingale-56

We could change history!

The problem is that we are looking back at those tragedies much better informed and free from the old adage that, "doctor knows best".

Time for medics to pull their heads out of the sand.....and to look and listen!

JGBH profile image
JGBH in reply toDippyDame

Truly appalling! They don’t have any conscience!

JGBH profile image
JGBH in reply toCooper27

Sorry about the uncaring way your mum was left to die. Did you ever confront the doctor’s cavalier attitude afterwards? Did she/he apologise? Not that a pathetic easy apology could alter the situation but at least an acknowledgement of her/his incompetence and neglect?

They deserved to be sued.

This sort of behaviour(more frequent nowadays) makes me rather angry.

Cooper27 profile image
Cooper27 in reply toJGBH

We didn't at the time. My dad is still a patient with the surgery (only place for 10 miles), and we don't want to create a situation where he can't visit the GP. The surgery acted very sheepish afterwards, but we've never had a real apology, and I"m very angry they chose not to apologise. We aren't out for money, but would have liked the assurance they won't make the mistake again.

Maybe I'll print off the study and post it to them!

JGBH profile image
JGBH in reply toCooper27

I do understand your precarious situation but that’s how those incompetent people get away with “murder”.

It’s appalling they didn’t not even apologise.... So full of themselves! What egos as large as their ignorance.

Not what you're looking for?

You may also like...

Covid-19 antibodies reduce faster in men than women – study

Although this research is strictly related to Covid-19, I couldn't help wondering if the...
helvella profile image
Administrator

Is it anxiety or something else? What women should know.

Article from a few days ago in the Washington Post. These "being. woman" issues appear to be...
helvella profile image
Administrator

Statins to be extended to 15m extra people

I've just read this article (...

Why are women with brain tumours being dismissed as attention-seekers?

Why are women with brain tumours being dismissed as attention-seekers? Women with...
helvella profile image
Administrator

Hypothyroid - weird symptoms heart or anxiety attack?

I'm a 35 year old male 6" tall and 72 kg (skinny). I have been hypothyroid (with some hashimoto's...
ak_83 profile image

Moderation team

See all
SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator
RedApple profile image
RedAppleAdministrator
helvella profile image
helvellaAdministrator

Content on HealthUnlocked does not replace the relationship between you and doctors or other healthcare professionals nor the advice you receive from them.

Never delay seeking advice or dialling emergency services because of something that you have read on HealthUnlocked.