Canvassing opinions on what to do...: I stopped... - Thyroid UK

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Canvassing opinions on what to do...

Icicles profile image
53 Replies

I stopped taking NDT in February this year, feeling frustrated and even fatter a year after starting out. I checked my thyroid this week with the results below.

I need to start something, I’m not sure what I’ve had some lovely, caring but conflicting ideas shared with me. What do other lovely helpful people think? And ultimately I know it is my responsibility, I would just like to hear others’ thoughts and what they would take into account in making a decision. Thanks for any thoughts on this

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Icicles profile image
Icicles
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53 Replies
greygoose profile image
greygoose

How much NDT were you on? And, how did you feel? Were all your nutrients optimal?

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply togreygoose

I cut back to 2 grains and was taking 6.25 T3 after I went over range in November (on 3 grains and 6.25 T3). That’s what I was taking when I stopped in February. I was optimal in vitamin and iron/folate. I’d taken a lot of information from searching and reading posts and was very pleased with myself. I am still taking: daily vitamin D3, B complex, C, Magnesium, K2MK7, Betaine. It seems to make no sense to have stopped now, but the benefits had seemed to plateau and I was longing to get my pulse rate up and lose weight. My temperature remained mostly low, though I do have menopausal hot flushes and my resting pulse rate during the day is sometimes 42-44 and that never changed. And I am not an athlete!

I was getting a lot of hip pain which was getting me down, but I am seeing results from Physiotherapy so that may have contributed. I did get some headaches around the time I went over FT3 range.

greygoose profile image
greygoose in reply toIcicles

Did you go from 3 grains to 2 in one go? That's a huge reduction.

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply togreygoose

No I cut down from 3 to 2 between November and February. But I did just stop taking the 2 grains then. Looking at my diary, I did carry on with the T3 at 6.25 for a couple of weeks and then stopped that. I’d been on holiday and I felt fat and my hip was aching and I felt depressed that things weren’t better.

I sound a bit pathetic, but I realise that I need something, I just want to find out what. My friend is on T4. It’s worked so well for her.

greygoose profile image
greygoose in reply toIcicles

Well, we're all different and we have to find what works for us as individuals. People usually start on T4, because that's the easiest. And, when you get your TSH down to around 1 you can then see how well you convert, and try different things from there. Have you ever been on T4 only?

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply togreygoose

No, but I think that I am going to give it a chance. My mother responded really well to it. Thank you for your help with this, I appreciate it very much 🙏🙂

greygoose profile image
greygoose in reply toIcicles

You're welcome. :)

cjrsquared profile image
cjrsquared

Do you mean you stopped ndt without starting anything else. Are these your blood results off all replacement therapy?

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply tocjrsquared

Hello cjrsquared, yes I just stopped all replacement therapy.

radd profile image
radd

Icicles,

From those results it looks like you are a good converter so may not need T3, either in NDT or on its own.

Why don’t you just take Levo ?

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toradd

Thank you radd, I have ordered some. Some members of the forum very kindly offered ideas last night, but they weren’t all the same ideas and one idea was to ask more explicitly for help. I do really value what everyone has offered and don’t want to appear ungrateful, but I do feel like I can’t take the risk of getting stuck up another alley again and I don’t know enough, and can’t remember enough of what everyone is saying to make sense of it. Fingers crossed that the T4 turns up and I’ll give that a good go.

Thanks again x

radd profile image
radd in reply toIcicles

Icicles

Yes, there are many combos & no one size fits all, but most people take Levo & function well. There is only a small subset that don’t. Levo has a bad name on this forum because most of us are within that small subset, but I have at least two friends who positively thrive on it.

If these results are indicative of your usual unmedicated thyroid function, I am surprised your endo prescribed NDT with an FT3 35% already through range.

Just raising T4 levels with Levo should be sufficient to increase T3 enough to bring well being but remember thyroid hormones require adequate iron & vits to work & convert well.

If Levo works for you, it is so much easier to medicate because it is prescribed free on NHS, appears more tolerant of elevated thyroid hormone antibodies (which you don’t have) and is more adaptable, in that you can always add T3 to Levo at a later stage but you can’t take T3 out of NDT.

You also won’t get the hassle of unusual bloods that GP’s don’t understand & which risk causing discontent with different specialists should you ever require other medical investigations.

radd profile image
radd in reply toradd

Re your hysterectomy - a small amount of sex hormone are supposed to be sequestered by the adrenals after menopause to avoid us risking weakened bones, balding, going dry down below, & growing chin hair, etc ...

However, adrenals are usually too worn out to supply adequate if have been supporting low thyroid hormone for years & years.

Apart from risking the other numerous effects of oestrogen dominance, some types of endometrial cancer cells may be stimulated by supplying oestrogen alone, and if you were prescribed HRT, you should have been prescribed one containing both oestrogen & progesterone.

I haven’t had a hysterectomy. Just completely knackered adrenals. All hormones work together and my thyroid hormone replacement did not work well until I started a bio-identical HRT containing both oestrogen & progesterone.

Angel_of_the_North profile image
Angel_of_the_North in reply toradd

Even with a hysterectomy, you still need progesterone for your breasts and brain. Shame NHS doesn't seem to believe that.

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toAngel_of_the_North

I wish that there was some answer to the question of my brain, maybe bio identical progesterone and oestrogen is it. My GP did a little wry laugh, said that they ‘had had a teaching session on it last week’ and wrote out a prescription for bog standard something or other.

Nico101 profile image
Nico101 in reply toradd

Which bio-identical HRT do you use? Does it need prescription? Thanks

radd profile image
radd in reply toNico101

Nico101

Utrogestan 100mg capsules & Estradiol 0.06% gel given on prescription.

Nico101 profile image
Nico101 in reply toradd

Was yours NHS?

radd profile image
radd in reply toNico101

Nico101

Yes, on National Health.

Angel_of_the_North profile image
Angel_of_the_North in reply toNico101

Mine is compounded for me: bi-est (oestriol and oestradiol), Progesterone and DHEA. Needs a private prescription.

Nico101 profile image
Nico101 in reply toAngel_of_the_North

Thanks. I'll look into this more when I get my results back from Regenerus.

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toradd

Thank you radd, I will look at that again. You’ve been so helpful.

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator

If trying Levothyroxine make sure to stick to same brand and retest bloods 6-8 weeks after each dose increase

Make sure to take on empty stomach and then nothing apart from water for at least an hour after

Suggest you start with 50mcg Levothyroxine

The aim of Levothyroxine is to increase the dose slowly in 25mcg steps upwards until TSH is under 2 (many need TSH significantly under one) and most important is that FT4 in top third of range and FT3 at least half way in range

Vitamin D, folate, ferritin and B12 are likely to have dropped since stopped NDT

All four vitamins need to be regularly tested and frequently need supplementing to maintain optimal levels, especially if now more hypothyroid

NHS guidelines on Levothyroxine including that most patients eventually need somewhere between 100mcg and 200mcg Levothyroxine.

nhs.uk/medicines/levothyrox...

Also what foods to avoid (eg recommended to avoid calcium rich foods at least four hours from taking Levo)

Perhaps consider getting DIO2 gene test to see if you need T3

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testin...

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toSlowDragon

Thank you SlowDragon, I’m going to give the Levo a chance. Thank you for the information, that’s really helpful, and for taking the time to help me out.

Clarrisa profile image
Clarrisa in reply toSlowDragon

Is it OK to take Levo with mineral water?

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply toClarrisa

I guess so. You wouldn't want one that had calcium in it though

DeeD123 profile image
DeeD123

I’m someone that has always done well on levo. Never had a problem. I would always go easy route first. A lot of people I have seen still feeling ill on it just need the right dose which can be a challenge where GPs are concerned. Good luck and I hope it works for you. Don’t forget to give it 6 weeks before you re-test.

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toDeeD123

Thank you DeeD, it’s good to hear that you are doing so well. I feel much more hopeful now, and my T4 is on its way!

765nottyash profile image
765nottyash

Hi Icicles, Diet has worked best for me, I've given up gluten, soy and dairy except butter which is a fat. I can see a big difference in my health. Within 3 days of giving up dairy I felt so much better. We're all different, the key is to never give up.

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply to765nottyash

Hello nottyash, I am hearing that I really ought not to diet right now, but I know that I could do with some dietary changes. I’m not going to give up, and glad to hear that you are well.

765nottyash profile image
765nottyash in reply toIcicles

Just try giving up milk for a couple of weeks, I knew with in a few days it was the right thing to do for me.

Kind regards Denise

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply to765nottyash

👍🏼

Hypothyro profile image
Hypothyro

Hi icicles, I’m not an expert on thyroid matters but for the last 20 years I’ve dealt with heart problems. A pulse rate of 42-44 is far too low. I would advise an ecg & echo as sounds like you have a bit of heart block. Dont worry though as can be sorted with meds & this in turn will help your energy levels & metabolism. Good luck👍

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toHypothyro

Hello Hypothyro, thank you for your concern. I will get this checked out. Thanks for your support 👍🏼

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply toIcicles

Low pulse is common hypothyroid symptom

Wearing a Fitbit shows medics just how hypothyroid you might be

Also Fitbit records can be very useful to show weekly resting heart rate results, so you can track pro

Very useful tool if medics want to reduce dose, if TSH is low, despite still having low FT3 or FT4

silverfox7 profile image
silverfox7

It's not really safe for you to continue with no medication as you must have been told, with tests done, that you needed to take it so Levo is the easiest to get started on now. I was brilliant in Levo For such a long time till post menopause so well worth giving it a try. Good starter dose at 50 mcg's but make sure you get tested at 6 weeks so you get guidance as to what is happening or needs to happen.

If you haven't looked before have a look at the site of Thyroid U.K. who run this forum for help and advice, there are some do's and don'ts on there that may help you as well.

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply tosilverfox7

Thank you silverfox, I appreciate your advice. I am going to give it a try and see how I am in 6 weeks, and probably ask for help again.

Clara4741 profile image
Clara4741

I think if you have optimised all the necessary vitamins and minerals as recommended on this forum then you need to look at your adrenal health and possibly support your adrenals, as these are also key with regards to getting optimised on thyroid hormone. You could look at Adrenal Glandulars and/or Adrenal Adaptogens (Herbs). Have you also tested Reverse T3? This should be 15 or under and the RT3: T3 Ratio at least 20. Stress, infections parasites, heavy metals and toxins can all affect this. So to optimise your thyroid health you may need to dig deeper and work on your gut health, liver detoxification etc. Overall your levels aren't too bad considering you have come off the NDT and this can take several months to settle post meds. Your levels aren't yet optimal but I still feel you have some experimenting to do. Definitely should check Reverse T3 though as this can increase when T4 is not getting converted to T3. In which case you don't want to keep taking loads more T4, especially T4 only.

Angel_of_the_North profile image
Angel_of_the_North in reply toClara4741

With T4 that low, high rT3 is extremely unlikely. If it is high, there is no way to know why - except what it won't be because of too much T4. Could be high cortisol, dieting, chronic disease, who knows? I wouldn't waste my money on an rT3 test unless my free T4 was over range. The ratios are also a bit of red herring for many people as they are an average for the whole population, whereas individuals have very different needs (as the original study by Poli that most of this is based on showed and is confirmed by more modern research).

Clara4741 profile image
Clara4741 in reply toAngel_of_the_North

It isn't about what the T4 looks like for doing a Reverse T3 Test but about why the T4 isn't converting so well to T3 and increasing these levels. It is always good to get this done in a Full Thyroid Panel at least once, especially if T3 is not going up which is what we need to happen for symptom relief and to feel better/optimal.

Angel_of_the_North profile image
Angel_of_the_North in reply toClara4741

Still no way to know why you are making more rT3 than T3 apart from the things I mentioned earlier, so I think it's a waste of money and not helpful. As far as I can tell the number 15 was just plucked out of the air as an average with no reference to people's individual needs. It's not as though your GP is going to investigate it for you, so you just worry about undiagnosed chronic illness and the stress makes you worse. Even free t3 levels needed to feel well aren't set in stone, nor are the ratios. Some people even still think that rT3 blocks T3 receptors!!

Clara4741 profile image
Clara4741 in reply toAngel_of_the_North

You are right in that your GP probably won't look into why RT3 is up, if it is. it is something you would have to explore either on your own or with a Functional Medicine Practitioner. The figures I quoted are Functional Medicine numbers which seek to create optimal health and not just look at disease state markers before action is taken. This is why often people are unwell but their bloods may show as normal according to the NHS ranges and sometimes too from the Functional Medicine approach which seeks to identify the root causes of disease in the body. In any event Reverse T3 is sorted out by doing T3 only for a period of time for some people and for others who aren't good at converting T4 to T3 permanently. However this is all more than about just taking medication, lifestyle plays a massive part too. So in this instance taking more T4 would exacerbate the problem. It is of course up to the individual to decide how best to proceed for them.

Clara4741 profile image
Clara4741 in reply toClara4741

P.S. Meant to say that RT3 does block the cell receptors and stops T3 getting in or even converting from T4 to T3 at all which is why this needs to be assessed.

Angel_of_the_North profile image
Angel_of_the_North in reply toClara4741

It doesn't. That has been scientifically disproved and is not true.

radd profile image
radd in reply toClara4741

Clara4741,

That is old news.

Scientific literature now clearly states that RT3 does not bind to or have any transcriptional activity at the thyroid receptor.

sollas profile image
sollas

The best thing I have done recently was to adopt a strict keto diet. I have lost 15kg in 5 months and generally feel much better in myself. It is challenging to do as you need to be really restrictive with diet and choice but after about three months I started to notice a real difference. I can't see me ever going back to a carb based diet again. The weight loss is a happy aside, the main benefit for me is energy levels and clarity of mind (never as good as pre levo but better than it was).

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply tosollas

Hello sollas, I think that I could do a strict diet (I am the queen of dieting) but when I was losing nothing and struggling not to gain it was so disheartening. I think that once this is all underway I could look at that sort of thing. Glad to hear that you feel good and thank you.

FreeBlueBare profile image
FreeBlueBare

May I ask what steps you took to get off it? I'm considering doing the same.

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toFreeBlueBare

I foolishly cut down from 3 grains to 2 grains over about 2.5 months and then stopped taking it. It was a mistake, but I had had such hope and it was all gone by then and I felt relieved.

FreeBlueBare profile image
FreeBlueBare in reply toIcicles

But you survived to talk about it. Were you miserable after just cutting out the 2 grains?

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply toFreeBlueBare

I did feel miserable, but I attributed that to feeling like all the hope that I had invested in it was gone. When I look back to it now, I realise that I did go through a pretty horrible time, maybe it was as much the withdrawal as the feeling that I had reached the end of something I had put so much hope in. I focussed on collecting some good quality supplements and I read some posts about Betaine and adrenals.

Why do you want to stop? Are things not going well for you? Everyone here seems to be saying ‘don’t give up’ and I agree, there’s something wrong and it’s finding the right way to tackle it. Xx

Hi icicles

What were your numbers when you stopped NDT please ?

Your current TSH is too high and should be round 1 and your FT4 too low and should be in the top third of the range

Thank you

Alps holiday

Icicles profile image
Icicles in reply to

My result from 22.11.18 taking 3 NDT + 6.25 T3 was:

TSH 0.005 (0.27-4.20)

FT4 17.200 (12.00-22.00)

FT3 7.2 (3.10-6.80)

By February I had reduced to 2 and then just stopped. I didn’t do another blood test until this week.

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