Sleeping

[GeordieTyne]

I’ve been on Levothyroxine for about three weeks now.

I started on 25mcg and have progressed up to 50. Now I’m finding I have insomnia.

I can’t get off to sleep and I’m awake in the early hours! Is this what happens with a starter dose?

[Aurealis]

It’s all very variable from person to person. Insomnia is sometimes due to too low a dose.

[Tiredmum75]

Try a good bedtime routine a nice hot lavender bath some meditation and yoga to get your body ready for sleep

[HLAB35]

Very common to have hormone hiccups. Excess Cortisol can be due to low DHEA hormone which helps conversion of Levo to T3. Look up low DHEA symptoms - they sound like Hypothyroidism, that is low T3. Taking things that improve conversion will increase DHEA and decrease Cortisol (Hormones rely on feedback mechanisms). So, Selenium, Zinc, Magnesium and Vit B6 in Coenzyme form called P5P all help. Also check your iron levels. Anaemia is a problem for conversion too. All the Minerals to be taken away from Levo. Iron and Selenium earlier on and Zinc, Magnesium and P5P in the evening.

[Chippysue]

If I were in your shoes at this early stage I would stop the Levothyroxine.

If I had my time again with what I know now I would have seen a homeopath or nutritionist/naturopath and got to the root cause of thyroid symptoms to then be able to rectify it. Instead I fell into the conventional medicine trap of taking a drug to fix it which then gives a side effect.

Dr Isabella Wentz books, dr Amy Myers books explain how to not take thyroid medication.

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to Chippysue]

Yes, but in the USA, you get diagnosed when TSH is 3, not 10, so there is a sporting chance that you might be able to stop further Hashi attacks before too much of the thyroid is destroyed. Not so if you were diagnosed according to UK rules. I'd rather not take the risk of heart disease and dementia in the future by stopping replacement hormones

[LAHs in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Chippysue is in the UK, not the US.

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to LAHs]

Exactly! Isabella Wentz and Amy Myers are in the USA, and so what they say is not as relevant to the UK, which is point I am making. Isabella Wentz might have been able to get well without replacement hormones if she was diagnosed early, In the UK, that is very unlikely.

[LAHs in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

OK, got it, sorry, I missed the point. I never really associate science (or medicine) as having a geographical bias. But since I have not read either (but intend to - you know how that goes) I should leave it at that.

[Tina_Maria]

Chippysue - sorry, but I think it is very irresponsible advising someone to stop their thyroid medication! If your thyroid is slowly giving up, no dietary intervention will make your body produce the hormone that is deficient in your body. The only option is to replace it.

Isabella Wentz may have had some thyroid left that she could rescue, but for most people hormone replacement is the only option to REPLACE the missing hormones, especially when you are diagnosed with hashimotos, where your antibodies will slowly destroy your tissue. Her story is what is called a case study, which you cannot extrapolate to every other person. What worked for her will certainly not work for everyone.

Furthermore, here is no solid scientific evidence that you can cure your thyroid with dietary intervention alone and her protocol will leave you with nutritional deficiencies in the long run. And any respectable nutritionist will tell you that it is not the same to restrict your diet and then replace the nutrients you are missing with supplements, instead of a healthy balanced diet.

GeordieTyne I would persist with the levothyroxine for now, as it may take a while for the medication to work, don't give up just yet, it takes around 6 weeks for the dose to be fully effective. Check your nutrients as well (ferritin, B12, Vitamin D), people here also take magnesium, which could help with sleep when taken in the evenings.

[Chippysue in reply to Tina_Maria]

Bettina, I thought your tone sounded familiar, we have met.

I would be more than happy to introduce you to the many people that I have met who used to have hypothyroidism and no longer have it, and it was not just by diet.

[Chippysue]

I have not advised anyone to stop medication. Please read the post again.

You are incorrect advising to continue with medication when you are not qualified.

Hey aren’t we all on the same side here?

You have made assumptions about dietary interventions - it’s. It just that.

There are many people who have reversed thyroid disease naturally. Why can’t New members be given both sides of the story, as I say, if I were in her shoes, what I would do, doesn’t mean I am telling anyone what to do.

Everyone should be fully informed about any pill or potion, this is where the medical system is let down, we are just told what to do without being informed

[Tina_Maria in reply to Chippysue]

I have not advised to continue - just like you have said 'I would stop the levothyroxine' I mentioned 'I would persist with the levothyroxine'.

Angel of the North made a valid point too, in the UK you receive the treatment at a much later stage than in the US, by that time there is so much damage done already. If you are catching it early, you may be able to hold the disease for a while, but this is sadly a progressive disease, where you will need replacement hormones at some point.

Yes, we are all on the same side trying to help each other, but we also need to be careful to not raise unrealistic hopes. There are sadly no magic cures.

[Chippysue in reply to Tina_Maria]

Oh but there are and I will continue to believe the people that I know who have reversed almost all diseases, learning from them rather than any medical textbooks. It's not magic, it can be hard work.

[Hidden in reply to Chippysue]

I felt loads better on a homeopathic remedy and this led to my stopping my thyroid hormones.Within 4 months I was very confused, had a broken ankle after numerous falls and was very confused. I was also gasping for breath and leaving my body. I am convinced I would have died if I had not resumed NDT. There maybe some dietary and alternative way to halt or even reverse hypothyroidism but it is not something I would want to risk again. I also consider certainly the NDT I take a natural support.

[Chippysue in reply to Hidden]

How frightening, yes I also consider NDT a natural supplement, glad you are ok now

[Hidden in reply to Chippysue]

I don’t consider it a natural supplement. I consider it prescription hormone replacement in the same category as levothyroxine.

[Chippysue in reply to Hidden]

Levothyroxine is synthetic

[helvella Administrator in reply to Chippysue]

The majority of people reading here will know that levothyroxine is synthesised.

In my view, taking ANY exogenous thyroid hormone is not "natural".

As for so-called Natural Desiccated Thyroid, the pig thyroids are heavily processed - from what we know there are likely several stages - removal, defatting, possible freezing, drying, powdering, diluting - and that is just to make the Thyroid USP powder. Followed by adding at least two and sometimes many other other ingredients (some of these other ingredients are themselves questionable) and forming tablets.

I am not in any way against the use of desiccated thyroid products but I try to avoid using the word "natural" which always seems to me to be a salesman's term in this and many other contexts.

[Hidden in reply to helvella]

Here in Aus we call it "thyroid extract". I only say NDT in an international context - to be understood.

[helvella Administrator in reply to Hidden]

Yes - I am sure many appreciate your use of "NDT".

You will see a variety of terms in papers (e.g. as listed in PubMed) but the most common does seem to be Desiccated Thyroid Extract (DTE) - not that I have done an exhaustive analysis! Or just "Armour" without even necessarily meaning the trade-marked product.

The only issue I have with the term DTE is that it suggests they do something like soak the thyroids in water or alcohol and then evaporate the solution. Rather than dry and grind the defatted thyroids.

[Hidden in reply to helvella]

Yes. That’s how I’m assuming the name came about.

I’m guilty of saying armour sometimes too, depending on context

[RedApple Administrator in reply to Hidden]

I'm in the UK and personally always used to call it simply 'desiccated thyroid'. But the term NDT has infiltrated over the years (I think mainly American influence) and now everyone seems to use the 'natural' word - as if it makes it a superior substance. If it works for some, then that's great, but it is not, and never has been, something that works for everyone.

[Hidden in reply to RedApple]

I think, for me, I benefit from the t3. Maybe I could get that with synthetics too but for now I’m working on the ‘not broken, so don’t fix it’ principle

[RedApple Administrator in reply to Hidden]

There is, without doubt, something different in the way desiccated thyroid works. In my experience (I've experimented with both over long periods of time), it is different to taking a T4/T3 combo. The important thing is to take whatever works for you, and not be made to feel you're taking something inferior just because it's 'synthetic'.

[Chippysue in reply to helvella]

My ndt is not from a pig

[Hidden in reply to Chippysue]

Apparently sometimes here it is bovine but I’ve asked the pharmacy to only give me porcine - for consistency

[helvella Administrator in reply to Chippysue]

It is quite common for people to reserve the term Natural Desiccated Thyroid for the products that are prescription-quality. So far as I know, there are currently no prescription desiccated thyroid products that are derived other than from pig sources. (I am not sure whether there is a suitable pharmaceutical standard for non-porcine desiccated thyroid powder - Thyroid USP defines a T4 and T3 content which is unlikely to be replicated in other animals. I am not sure if any other part of it precludes other animals.)

However, I acknowledge that there are products made from desiccated thyroids from other species. At present I only know of cattle sourced products. In the past use has been made of the thyroids of other animals, most famously sheep/lambs.

Please read my earlier response as applying to ANY animal source.

[Hidden in reply to helvella]

The pharmacy assistant thought that sometimes it is bovine here but I haven’t confirmed that with the pharmacist yet. I want consistency at present so I just want the one. It’s all compounded into capsules here, no tablets.

[helvella Administrator in reply to Hidden]

From what I can gather, porcine has close to a 4.2:1 T4:T3 ratio, whereas bovine is 4:1.

Not a huge difference, and it could well vary from one product to another, but enough to make a difference. Let alone any other differences there might be!

[Hidden in reply to helvella]

They guarantee the quantities of t3 t4 which is why I suspect the assistant got it wrong. I’ve had a few different stories from them over the years. Next time I will talk to one of the pharmacists

[Hidden in reply to Chippysue]

Yes, that is true.

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to Hidden]

NDT is a replacement hormone made in a lab. It is not a natural supplement, any more than bioidentical sex hormones made from plants in a lab are natural supplements. To me, natural means, "not messed with", so perhaps it is matter of terminology.

[Hidden in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Yes. It starts with a natural ingredient though

[Hidden]

Can I just check what time you are taking the levo? and if you have had your ferritin, vitamin D, folate and B12 tested. It might help to post your blood results which your GP surgery will give you a copy of if you ask. Also taking your pulse might be helpful to gauge dose. I think some people especially as they get older are very sensitive to any medication and changes. It might help if you were able to take 35/40 mcg for a little while then increase to 50 but I imagine hard to split the pills for this. Hypothyroidism is a very complex illness with multiple factors affecting response to treatment, there are often a lot of hiccups and getting well can be a matter of much trial and error.

[GeordieTyne in reply to Hidden]

I take my Levothyroxine half an hour before I eat lunch. I’m never up for breakfast!! I’ve also been prescribed 3200mcg x4 of Vitamin D.

I’m not sure about being tested for the other stuff!

[helvella Administrator in reply to GeordieTyne]

I think you might mean 3200 IU vitamin D?

[GeordieTyne in reply to helvella]

Oops yes I did mean that!

[HLAB35 in reply to GeordieTyne]

Please check this out..

vitamindwiki.com/Overview+M...

I take Magnesium Citrate 200mg twice a day. It's not laxative if the dose is separated e.g. at 4pm and 9pm - I have no issues at all. It's massively improved my mood and my health in general.

[HLAB35 in reply to GeordieTyne]

If you're on 12,800 IU of Vitamin D it's worth knowing about the way it works, because, a lot of people, even doctors, just assume that it works on its own to help us... which is a myth.

In order for vitamin d to become useful, it requires quite large doses of Magnesium to i) be usable as a hormone in the body other than just drawing in large quantities of calcium into the bloodstream and ii) to prevent Calcium and Magnesium imbalance: When electrolytes are out of balance and you have a large ratio of Calcium in the bloodstream (compared to Magnesium), muscles fail to relax properly and you can get anxiety, cramps, restless legs, migraines, rapid heart rate, aneamia (as iron fails to absorb with too much Calcium around) and weak bones as Magnesium and Iron are needed for bones too.

The second important 'co-factor' is Vitamin K2. K2 is a fat soluble vitamin, so needs to be taken with fatty foods. Our guts are supposed to convert K1 from dark green vegetables to K2, but, unfortunately, very few of us in the West get enough. (In Japan they get K2 from fermented Soy - called 'Natto'.) Vitamin D will draw calcium out of food, but Vitamin K2 will send that calcium to your bones - not your arteries. Calcification is a major problem that GPs don't really understand. K2 and Magnesium can prevent this.

Read Carolyn Dean's blogs about Magnesium... they are an eye opener!

[Aurealis]

I have found that with low thyroid levels I sometimes go nocturnal, can’t sleep at night then can’t get up. Sounds like you? I don’t think it’s the Levo, more likely your thyroid function reducing. Have you tried taking Levo at night, many find it works best that way. You may sleep better ...

[helvella Administrator in reply to Aurealis]

I have always taken my levothyroxine at bed-time.

One of the very earliest improvements, for me, was better sleep. I had been falling asleep for a while, waking up and unable to get back to sleep.