This is the definition of Homoeopathy which appears on the website of The British Homeopathic Association:
What is homeopathy?
Homeopathy is a natural form of medicine used by over 200 million people worldwide to treat both acute and chronic conditions. It is based on the principle of ‘like cures like’. In other words, a substance taken in small amounts will cure the same symptoms it causes if taken in large amounts.
The only issue I have with that definition is that it doesn’t sufficiently emphasise the smallness of the small amounts!
Homoeopathic pills, powders, etc. are often so dilute as to be unlikely to contain a single molecule of the substance they are based on.
Whether or not we believe in homoeopathy, I think the above is a fair start.
The confusion I see is that non-homoeopathic treatments are often referred to as being homoeopathic. Mostly obviously, numerous herbal preparations are called homoeopathic despite containing very significant amounts of the herbal ingredients.
Even if a homeopath suggests you take some such treatment, it doesn’t suddenly change into a homoeopathic treatment.
When people are sceptical about homoeopathy, and express that, they are sometimes told of all sorts of “alternative” treatments that work.
I just want to make sure that when we discuss things, we use terms which make sense.
[ Personal Point of View
I do not believe in homoeopathy at all. I cannot think of any way in which it could work. Even the world of homoeopathy is riven by differing viewpoints. ]
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helvella
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I agree, there is frequent confusion between homeopathy and the ever growing myriad of 'herbal remedies' that can be bought in health shops, online etc.
Years back I saw a (so called) endocrinologist who proclaimed NDT to be voodoo medicine! I was taking Armour at the time, and he then proceeded to try and work out the *equivalent* daily doses of synthetic T4 and T3 to prescribe me instead.
Because in the case of NDT, there is nothing 'herbal' about it... It is usually derived from bovine or porcine sources and to dismiss it as being a 'herbal remedy' is about as stupidly ignorant as it comes!
my question was regarding Red Apples post : " I agree, there is frequent confusion between homeopathy and the ever growing myriad of 'herbal remedies' that can be bought in health shops, online etc."
I interpreted that as covering true herbal remedies and the many other products sold by such retailers that are not herbal remedies. In other words, using the term as the retailers use it - not as more properly defined and restricted to plant products.
For example, a quick look at Holland and Barrett shows Protein World Fat Metaboliser 90 Capsules under Herbal & Licensed Remedies. Very easy to think they are herbal.
I recently asked some homeopaths to clarify the active content of the creams I've used with good effect for years: arnica, calendula, hypericum, & stellaria. These are made as herbal rather than homeopathic preparations.
I've had a lot of success with herbal preparations, especially prescribed medication, those I've made myself, & off the shelf creams. A herbalist friend makes a wonderful joint balm which I find better than ibuprofen gel. I asked the homeopaths I met about the creams the were selling, as I find them effective, as opposed to the pills I've tried, though the teething preparations I gave to my son did work.
I don’t believe in it, but nothing helped two of my dogs’ eye ulcers except oculoheel eye drops which are homeopathic. Given there are much smaller particles than molecules some of which still appear to be “theoretical” or not fully understood, how can we be sure it has no validity?
However small particles are, the dilution of some homoeopathic "remedies" is such that if the entire known universe were the remedy, it probably would not contain one single molecule. That rate of dilution is that same regardless the size of the object being considered.
But could not smaller particles than the molecule leave an imprint? Why does it have to be on a molecular not atomic scale. Perhaps this is what homeopathy claims...
Oh gosh I have absolutely no idea helvella I don’t really have the scientific underpinning to know why a compound can’t have a few atoms that can go somewhere else in their orbits get attracted elsewhere and form into some other matter but still have an efficacious medicinal power. No doubt you are groaning with despair at my ignorance and the fact that it cannot work like this! I heard water leaves an imprint in all it encounters even from a serious scientist. I’m afraid I tend to think we are prisoners of our own times and thinking which could be limiting factors and there probably are no facts really, they are a useful construct to fit with our current perspective which is forever in flux. For this reason I try to keep an open mind to many possibilities. I still can’t really see how homeopathy can work nevertheless.
Logically I cannot see how homeopathic treatments work as they are so dilute. Friend ( who is a trained homeopath) gave me some tablets, the little ball shaped ones, forget the proper name for them, for back pain and they seemed to work. Could have been coincidence, could have been natural healing, I didn't take any regular meds, but the pain went so I want arguing.
I have Fibromylagia, ucan't take the prescription meds due to side effects so I'll try anything that'll help me have some sort of normal life. I'm have fairly good results with herbal preparations and vitamins and minerals. I can't see how homeopathic treatments could help hyper- or hypothyroidism but if they do no harm............
Have you looked at SAMe for fibromyalgia?(S-adenosyl Methionine).I used it for 18 months with no side effects for a bout of depression.It helped me.
LDN seems to work for some.
I have been on LDN for 3 years for fatigue,but am thinking of tapering off,as I am not noticing any effect.Going to try SAMe again, as I am feeling stiff & achey
If you want to know more from me re SAMe-pm me.Its important to buy individual foil packs & take B6 50mcgs,B12 500mcgs minimum,with this supplement.I bought mine off Ebay shops & went for the brand that had been used in clinical trials.
Are homeopathic practitioners readily available in UK? Homeopathy is next to non-existiant in U$A.
That's surprising.Yes,we have schools training homeopaths.My friend has been trained at one.She has some extremely whacky ideas,but she definitely helped my cat's post-operative hair -loss.
But you seem to have instead,many chiropractors who practice functional medicine.They call themselves doctors & claim huge knowledge & expertise in treating chronic medical conditions.Our chiropractors & osteopaths only treat the skeleton & are not allowed to call themselves doctors unless they have a Phd,which would not be in medicine & would be for a post-graduate degree that could be any subject following a degree in any subject.
I have been told the chiropractic training in the USA is of a different order to ours & more akin to medical training?
Even so,as a Brit,it does go against the grain & I believe many thousands in the UK believe Dr Datis Kharrazian,Dr Mercola,Dr Oz,Dr Berg,Dr Bergman et al are MDs who have gone on to practice functional medicine.
I also wonder how well their training schools are regulated.
Its ironic,really,that they need to call themselves Doctor,to encourage the chronically ill to trust their authority,when we have been SO let down by the medical profession.
Many now seem to specialise in Hashimotos.After all,this is a growing epidemic.I wonder why they aren't specialising in diabetes.
Many now seem to specialise in Hashimotos.After all,this is a growing epidemic.
In some ways it is an ideal illness to make money from. Ongoing and changing issues over decades. And little offered by conventional medicine beyond levothyroxine monotherapy. The potential for sales is huge - say each sufferer buys just one, two or three products a year and they are persuaded to purchase your own special formulation... Massive sums.
I believe the "epidemic" is, or will soon be around the Northern Hemisphere, thanks to Fukushima, which is still emitting radiation. Radioactive Iodine collects in the Thyroid Gland. Women appear to be more susceptible than men to this form of Radiation sickness, but they will not be spared from feeling the effects. Myriad of ailments and diseases will be result. Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, as well as all the testing over many decades, all have contributed. Digestive tract ailments, autoimmune diseases and cancers. More numbers are surviving, but results may be skewed due to more having said ailments, diseases and cancers.
I am not aware of any increase in Hashimoto's since Fukushima in the UK (the location of most members).
Mind, given that development of symptoms and diagnosis can take many years, perhaps not surprising. But the incidence is already high. I am not at all convinced that there is any need to point a finger at Fukushima.
Asymptomatic autoimmune thyroiditis
Raised serum concentrations of thyroid antibodies [anti-thyroid peroxidase (microsomal) (TPOAb) and anti-thyroglobulin (TGAb)] correlate with the presence of focal thyroiditis in thyroid tissue obtained by biopsy and at autopsy from patients with no evidence of hypothyroidism during life. Early post-mortem studies confirmed histological evidence of chronic autoimmune thyroiditis in 27% of adult women, with a rise in frequency over 50 years, and 7% of adult men, and diffuse changes in 5% of women and 1% of men.2 Patients with hypothyroidism caused by either atrophic or goitrous autoimmune thyroiditis usually have high-serum concentrations of these same antibodies. These antibodies also are often detected in serum of patients with Graves' disease and other thyroid diseases, but the concentrations are usually lower.
The percentage of subjects with high-serum TPOAb and TGAb concentrations increases with age in both men and women, and high concentrations are more prevalent in women than in men and less prevalent in blacks than in other ethnic groups.4 Using a competitive immunoassay procedure, the reported prevalence of detectable TGAb and TPOAb levels were 10 and 12% of the healthy population. A hypoechoic ultrasound pattern or an irregular echo pattern may precede TPOAb positivity in autoimmune thyroid disease and TPOAb may not be detected in >20% of individuals with ultrasound evidence of thyroid autoimmunity.13
Yes & I bet they don't have time for a one-to-one practice.Dr Mercola started out as a chiropractor with a hands-on practice.He's now got an internet empire ...
I do not believe in homeopathy.Google Edvard Ernst & listen to"Why I changed My Mind"BBC iplayer radio 4. series 2 episode 2.
And yet...I was due a hysterectomy in my late 40s,as fibroids were giving me big problems coming up to the menopause(the perimenopause)Non-stop bleeding,hemorrhages etc.I was getting really anaemic as a result.
I was booked in to have the op,having found a surgeon who was willing to remove my womb & leave the cervix & ovaries.(most insist on whipping the whole lot out if you are past childbearing,slamming you into an overnight menopause).He refused to just remove the fibroids,as he would have done if I wanted more children & was younger.
My GP had street cred as a bit of an alternative-lifestye trendy, where I lived in trendy mid wales,so when I asked him to refer me to the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital he was furious but felt he had to agree!
I saw a fully trained medical specialist who was a gynaecologist & a homeopath.
One remedy from her & I was able to cancel the op.
I am now 68 & still have a womb & fibroids!
My point is,homeopaths and chiropractors can pay to attend colleges that may not be up to scratch.I have been to a few of these homeopaths & they were useless & had some very strange ideas.One of them got very shirty with me when I said there was a genetic component to schizophrenia.The trouble is,homeopathy predates things like genetics,virology etc
All very confusing!I love the romantic idea of homeopathy,but find it impractical 99% of the time.
Very pleased you got something that worked. Was that remedy that worked a genuine ultra-dilute homoeopathic remedy - or something with measurable quantities of active ingredients?
(I do wonder whether the name of the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital was taken to imply everything they ever did was give out ultra-dilute homoeopathic remedies - and thus seal its fate?)
I've used homeopathic remedies with success over the years. Prescribing the correct remedy by a trained homeopath is a science & an art. While some would choose to say this a placebo effect, I've worked with a homeopathic DVM for 20 years to help my dogs & cats. Almost without fail, he's helped them all. A far greater percentage than that traditional vets & without side effects.
There are various explanations for the potency & efficacy of dilute doses. Think of it as nano particles. Nanopharmacology, which is something being researched & developed for traditional medicine. Another explanation is that the substance being diluted transfers energy or information to the distilled water. The structure of the water has been changed.
The trouble I have with accepting anything about the ultra dilution is that the ocean is full of water that is ultra-diluted x, y and z. Why do these substances not exhibit effects?
I also cannot accept that if homoeopathic remedies are effective, that they are also as safe as claimed.
You also see stories of some practitioners insisting on use of particular methods of bashing the substances, and others happily using the electric machines. There is a lot of mumbo-jumbo surrounding it.
Homeopathic remedies are diluted in distilled water so that there's no other minerals or substances in the water to contraindicate. Speaking of oceans, fish can detect smells at between one part per 25 million and one part per 10 billion. How dilute is that?
Even distilled water has things dissolved in it - maybe oxygen? maybe anything that has fallen into it? maybe from the container it is in?
When we see the dilutions referred to in homoeopathy, one part per 25 million and one part per 10 billion rank as concentrated!
How about this:
Another example given by a critic of homeopathy states that a 12C solution is equivalent to a "pinch of salt in both the North and South Atlantic Oceans", which is approximately correct.
Distilled water is nothing but oxygen & hydrogen--pure water. You were talking about things being diluted in the ocean, which contains a multitude of substances. The critic's statement is not correct. Do you have a link of homeopathic remedies that are one part of 25 million or one part per 10 billion? Even saying that it's one part per 25 million or 10 billion shows there's a "part".
Fine - but what is is made from? Can you prove that none of the glass, metal or whatever else it is made of does not get dissolved as the water distils? And do you avoid glass and plastic containers for the distilled water?
Do you somehow distil without any air being present? If not, how do you avoid oxygen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, etc., being dissolved in the water?
My distiller is high grade stainless steel. The water is collected in a glass container. I store the water in glass bottles in the refrigerator. Why would air be a concern? Why would I avoid water being in contact with glass? Glass doesn't impart anything to water. Glass doesn't dissolve in water. Distilled water is as close as you can get to pure H2O & why it's used for homeopathic remedies. I don't have a chemistry lab to prove it. Why do ask?
Water in liquid form doesn't have a permanent structure. It is a sea of molecules of H20 temporarily binding weakly to each other and then falling apart to bind to others. The structure theory for homeopathic water is moonshine!
What you mention about water "falling apart to bind to others" may be exactly why dilutions work. Water's weak bond of hydrogen & oxygen could account for this.
Sorry, no. There aren't any "others" for water to bind to. The water molecules simply play a random dance with each other binding and releasing continuously. There's no stable structure in liquid water. That's why it's a liquid.
I have the best experiences with Homeopathy myself. I am a leukemia surviver from my twenties, very young, strong, and stupid at the time, i was also a smoker and thin like a model.. So Pneumonia hit me hard twice and it was more painfull and exhausting that my transplant treatment.. The third time i was lucky because i had just met an homeopath doctor. After 24 hours i felt a bit better and after 48, all the symptoms was gone. He helped me and my family, even my dogs countless times. He is a classic homeopathy Doctor, professor in University and a good friend. So i always ask him first about everything. There are things he can't help ( like my hypothyroid symptoms, that's why i will start soon NDT again) and that's ok. My point is that you must search for a classic trained homeopathy doctor first and if he is a GP doc also like mine, even better!
I completely agree that homeopathy is not efficacious. There is no research to support the 'diluted like cures like' rationale. So if people say it works for them, they should be grateful to the power of the placebo effect, for which there is a considerable body of research. And if a herbal product is being called homeopathic, it adds insult to injury. Herbal products work, and make no outrageous claims. Let's be clear!
I've tried some homeopathic pills in the past, over the counter ones, for things like period pain and back pain but no benefit. The same principle applies though to vaccinations and they work.
I am afraid I get very annoyed when people dismiss something because they don't understand how it works - if it works it works end of. This is what endocrinologists and the medical profession do to us - you can't possibly be suffering as you are stating because your blood test is normal. My story is as follows - before I managed to get on thyroid hormone - I had Lupus which unbeknown to me was being driven by the thyroid issues - once I went on thyroid hormone the Lupus blood tests including Hughes Syndrome (sticky blood) went. I now have to monitor the auto immune side of the Hashi's carefully to avoid a Lupus flare. Because my body was so low on zinc and I had beta carotene building up in the liver which is a sign of a serious thyroid issue - I was covered in sores all over my body - had been like that for months - no cream - no tablets nothing would stop it - it wasn't eczema either just open sores - I was working as a temp at a company near me and my legs were dripping with blood out of the dressings that I had put on to go to work. I was walking to get lunch in town with tears in my eyes due to the pain in walking and suddenly saw a brass nameplate on an office door as I walked past and it was the Association (or something similar) of Homeopathy - in total desperation I dragged myself up the stairs and broke down in floods of tears as the woman asked me if they could help me - I told them my story and virtually begged them to help me - they gave me something which was a zinc derivative and gave me the instructions as to how to take. I can tell you now and it is not all in the mind - that my legs started to feel better within an hour of taking the substance - the pain was diminished and my legs continued to be helped. They were certainly on the right track too with the zinc as I was later identified as being so low on zinc it was dangerous and was told to go an buy some immediately - all due to the thyroid hormones being so low but with a normal blood test - it was virtually myxedema. The Queen herself uses nothing but homeopathy too......I haven't used it since but I will never forget those people holding out their arms to help me when I was so desperate.
But simply not true to say the Queen uses nothing but homeopathy - she recently had a cataract operation without it she would have lost the vision in her eye. This is not homeopathy.
I agree with the proper description of true homeopathic "medicines". They are strictly those with nothing but water in them owing to enormous dilution to zero content. Medicines claimed to be homeopathic which have detectable amounts of the essential substance are simply classic drugs or supplements in all but name, masquerading under the homeopathic title..
I'm not criticising either of them, but like helvella, I do get a little frustrated when people confuse the two My motto is, try it, and if it works for you, then that's what matters. But don't do what the medics do and assert that because it works for you, it's a one size fits all remedy that will work for everyone.
I am very sceptical about many things, but many years ago I was referred to a Homeopath by my then Osteopath for help with my arthritis pain..Not only did the treatment lessen my joint pain but also helped with my dreadful headaches which I hadn't mentioned! Sadly, I have since tried a different Homeopath since moving to a different part of the country without such success. I think the practitioner has a lot to do with it.
I think it's more likely to be the magic of the internet. Being effective is not a prerequisite for any website discussing treatment which claims to have any form of therapeutic effect.
The power of homeopathic remedies is in its energy created by the process of dilution, not in any physical substance. All physical matter has an equal element of energy attached to it. Problem is that we don't give credit to what we can't experience with the 5 senses, so we doubt "invisible" powers. Homeopathics work on the psychological level and etheric body much as Bach Flower Remedies do.
So we should simply 'believe' in homeopathy then, just like in the 'emperors new clothes'?
Your last sentence 'Homeopathics work on the psychological level and etheric body ' makes me think 'placebo effect' which was the subject of a recent TV programme with Michael Mosley.
There is an element of belief involved in healing. If it works for some, why complain that you don't know why? Be glad the pain or illness has been lessened, and give credit where it is due.
Think of Einstein's E = Mc2. When it comes to science, God or spiritual topics, people believe in what they cannot see. But when discussing worldly matters, it is hard to see beyond the physical realm. Search homeopathy online and familiarize yourself with how it works. There are references to unseen elements of effect. It is not so simple to understand without researching into the subject in a deeper way. Kabbalah states that energy is intelligent. Not sure I have cleared things up or confused things more.
I'm not sure either, but Kabbala is occult and very bad for you, as are some (not all) "Alternative remedies". Not only because they may be ineffective and allow people to believe they are cured and then they die or something, but because of their "Spiritual" aspect. God - the God of the Bible - is real and is good, but there is also a devil
Are you Jewish? It would probably be easier to explain if you are. But don't want to talk about it on the open forum because it is off topic and controversial x
Agree I've seen one five times now and have to say all good for about an hour after treatment but then you realise that it's just like acupuncture a quick fix. An expensive fix at thirty pounds an hour. Never again not for me.
You simply have to make assessments and decisions without trying everything.
I have been checking up what is claimed by the main homoeopathic bodies and the evidence they present is, in my opinion, pretty poor.
But let me make sure I properly understand what you are saying. Is this correct?
You were suffering fibromyalgia. You took a homoeopathic preparation and that resolved the symptoms of fibromyalgia. (Not clear if you took one dose, or multiple doses over some time, or even that you started taking doses and continue to do so.)
I just lost my whole post. That only seems to happen on healthunlocked! aggrevating! so just one or two now!
leg cramp that awakens you in the night,so that you have to get up suffering with terrible cramps, says to take 3 or 4 under tongue, and I take 3 and within 5 minutes it starts ebbing off and within 10 or 15 minutes is gone w/o
side efects! That's me! Pharma had me on almost every med for heartburn and gerd, that either made it worse or allergic to fillers that gave me other problems, and insisted I take another, until I found what I wanted on Homopathy, took four tiny pills under tongue and am hardly
ever bothered now, after taking off and on for about two months!no side effects or allergic reactions ever!
Sorry to hear you lost your post - can't even complain to the sorting office on here! I must be tired tonight - keep losing letters out of words or typing wrong ones.
I would drink tonic water for cramp, but mostly because of liking the taste. Though it probably doesn't contain enough quinine to do much good - or it couldn't be sold as a drink because too much is very poisonous
I hate quack remedies that have no basis in reality or science. Unless it's in the weird realm of quantum physics!
But there's always the placebo effect.
The only problem is that some of these remedies have another danger - they can have a "Spiritual" aspect, but not a good one.
Traditional herbal remedies do often have a basis in medical fact of course, Chewing willow bark for pain, blue mold preparation for infection, foxglove for heart conditions, leech extract for thinning the blood, spider web for stopping bleeding... Even inoculation against disease, and desensitisation for allergies are based on the principle "Like cures like"
But something that at its most "Powerful" hasn't even one molecule of what is supposed to benefit is crazy.
Sorry if you mean the talk of spider web and leeches, lol. I quite like spiders, and once saw a fascinating documentary about medicinal leeches. They even have their uses these days in certain circumstances, such as keeping a blood supply going or when there is a serious bruising for example. But I wouldn't fancy having the treatment all the same!
"blue mold preparation for infection". My mother told me that, in the days before modern antibiotics, her father had blood poisoning. An old countrywoman told him to find an old saddle with blue mold on it and make a preparation from it. Penicillin!
Of course, one could try eating blue cheese instead. Though not sure if that's the right mold
Maybe I should have said "Natural remedies". Though leeches are "Natural creatures" doing what comes naturally. I think the blood thinner substance they produce is called Hirudin. All blood sucking creatures produce anti-clotting substances, some of which can be used in medicine. They have to. After all, if you are trying to suck up a bedtime drink, especially through a straw - as in mosquitos - and it suddenly starts to turn solid you would have a problem!
Homopathy is so clean like hardly any taste at all to any remedy I've ever taken, actually even a pleasure!
Another remedy I've been taking off and on for about 2 years is metals. I have only tried the Silver, Meso Silver to be exact!
Back before pennicillin, this was our only antibiotic and may become again because
of the failure of the super bugs. It is now
being used in operating rooms for the bandages of burn victims, and also in third world countries for purifying their water!
If you google it and get their forum, you'll find their (researching silver, I have found the only pure silver is Meso Silver) Gold, Platinum, copper, etc. have so many
diseases that they have either helped or cured (MS and some Cancers, etc. look it up) and doesn't taste any different than water. They all profess to be the purest but only Meso can prove it. It's the only one that can be taken orally and is able to go through the whole digestive track because of their minute particules! It has a rose colored water look! all others have no color!
Yes, Silver (silver nitrate) does have an antiseptic/antibiotic effect, so does copper.
Interesting. Looked up medicinal uses and copper has been used for centuries apparently. Poisonous to take in too much, though it's of course a trace element that our bodies need: copper.org/publications/new...
But I would be careful about drinking colloidal silver. Thought it would be harmless (like gold, which hardly reacts with anything - just goes in at one end and out the other!) but it apparently can cause health problems if taken too much:
I think the confusion occurs when we try to understand homeopathy from a physical point of view that holds matter at the base of our understanding. We do not really understand what electricity is, yet we can manupulate it relatively easily so to deny it's effects would be preposterous. I have my own personal understanding of how homeopathy works as I am training to become a practitioner, but do not see the point of arguing for or against any form of medicine. If conventional medicine works for you - great. If it doesn't and you seek alternatives, keep an open mind and try not to understand the different approach using the same philosophy as the system that isn't able to offer you the results you would expect.
"The probable origins of homeopathy are fascinating and almost certainly stretch back into prehistory. Many indigenous, shamanic peoples say that medicines must be shaken or struck in order to waken them up, and waterfalls (where potentisation is an ongoing process!) are universally held to be places of healing. At the time of Hahnemann in the late 18th century herbalists would vigorously shake their medicines before dispensing them – not just to mix them thoroughly but to enliven them (pdf2). Potentisation did not, therefore, appear out of nowhere, but was most likely based on current practices at the time Hahnemann introduced it."
So the whole idea seems to be based on ancient shamanistic practices, given a modern twist? Hmmmm…
and theres more to life than science can explain.Even if science wants to get involved they usually look at things from a perspective thats never going to give the answers they want.
I used to practise as a medical herbalist until I retired and there is a ton of research that is constantly being carried out on herbs and their actions ,efficacy ,safety and so on-usually from America ,Germany etc- but the scientific / medical community only considers something to be effective if you can do double blind tests etc.People are more complex than RCT studies allow for and herbs are more complex than just a set of constituents.
yes and interestingly isolating what the scientific community decided were the active ingredients of the derivative plants have also produced drug side effects .
no its the doseage that makes something like this dangerous. Digitalis was used frequently and successfully by older herbalists as a treatment for certain heart conditions.The cardiac glycosides are - in the correct doseage- not toxic .
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Scientific Research Paper April 2019 - Why haven't things changed????
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