How quickly could my labs go out of range or even HYPER thyroid?

[kinoble]

Hi guys,

Loadsa questions lately from a practical pov for people who have been through treatment, so I apologise!

As posted the other day my last labs BEFORE I started taking Armour Thyroid a week ago were:

Free T3- 6.0 pmol/L. (3.1-6.8)

Free T4- 17.6 pmol/L (12-22)

TSH- 2.71 miU/L (0.27-4.2)

So on a dose of 30mg Armour a day, soon to go up to 60mg as a split dose (good idea or too quick??) within a week, hypothetically how long would it take to bring my TSH down to say 1.0, or on the other hand go HYPERthyroid?

I read somewhere and it worried me that someone started taking 60mg and went HYPERthyroid and subsequently.developed dvt/clots because of the effects on coagulation. Has anyone experienced/heard of this?

Many thanks

B

[Aurealis]

I thought dvt / clots would be more likely with under treatment of hypothyroidism due to slowed heart rate and a general slowing down leading to less exercise, more sleep etc, all risk factors for dvt

It is difficult to do things slowly but very unpleasant if you raise too quickly and difficult to anticipate due to delayed effect of rising T4 and difficulty in reducing quickly due to long half life of T4

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

Hi Aurealis,

Agreed, if is as far as I know for the exact reasons you said. However apparently changes to fibrin and coagulation due to increased hormone to treat hypothyroid can be a risk too. Especially if t4 or rt3 gets too high. Typically I think it's more associated with Hypo, however I have read (journals and anecdotal) of both.

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

I'm interested in this, having had a dvt at a time when I wasn't feeling hypo. I'd never heard of that - do you have any references?

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/223...

One of a few.

Did u have symptoms of.clots?

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

Thanks, hence the association between suppressed TSH and critical events requiring hospital admission.

Yes I did have symptoms, most predominantly leg pain

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

Indeed. Interesting. Leg pain different to a bad strain?

Do.you know what your labs were then out of interest?

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

Sharp localised pain in my case

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

Did the pain continue at rest/in bed (I.e. no activity?)

Were any other hormones involved? I.e. if pill taken did they blame.it on that? Feel free not to answer!

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

I'll send you a private message

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

Thanks!

[QUE6T-33 in reply to Aurealis]

Suppressed TSH & critical events, would that

be associated also by elevated FT4 / FT3 ?

[kinoble in reply to QUE6T-33]

Not sure if thats aimed at me but frm what I have read, yes.

And elevated rt3 can also have dire consequences.

[QUE6T-33 in reply to kinoble]

Only asked because since on meds

my TSH has suppressed, but my other

levels aren't even optimal yet.

[kinoble in reply to QUE6T-33]

I'm.not qualified as a newbie but maybe suggestive of sub-optimal.dose? Too high or too low? Maybe someone better informed can help?

[QUE6T-33 in reply to kinoble]

Yep, too low - I'm working on it.

[Aurealis in reply to QUE6T-33]

TSH can become suppressed very readily by any ingested thyroid hormone. Therefore for many people cannot reliably be used to inform optimal treatment.

[QUE6T-33 in reply to Aurealis]

Yep, that was my understanding. So

the suppressed TSH & critical events

comment above perhaps more readily relates elevated FT4 or more likely FT3.

[Aurealis in reply to QUE6T-33]

Sadly I don't think so. I think that Diogenes has posted references about this on this site. Perhaps someone can give you a reference? Perhaps Helvella can help?

[QUE6T-33 in reply to Aurealis]

Thanks Helvella - yes please could

someone let me know where I can

read up in this please. Ta x

[QUE6T-33 in reply to Aurealis]

Hi Aurealis - could you offer any

Ideas on how I could locate this

link please ?

[Aurealis in reply to QUE6T-33]

I started a new thread - let's see what response there is. Sorry, I read all this stuff but don't keep links and addresses so I can get back to it.

[QUE6T-33 in reply to Aurealis]

Oh, magic. Thanks for that as real

interested. Bye for now

[Aurealis in reply to QUE6T-33]

Not necessarily. If you trust TSH test, suppression means over treatment. The key is to have fT3 and fT4 in the correct place on the range for your own individual set point, not anywhere in the range.

[SAMBS in reply to Aurealis]

Thats what i had for a few weeks before my aneurysm, pain was in left groin! Was put on Kardegic (warfarin) in hospital, should still be taking it but dontfor variety of reasons.

[QUE6T-33]

Hi - your lab results prior starting Meds don't look that bad to me ! ?

[kinoble in reply to QUE6T-33]

Hi Quest,

I agree. It's not so much my labs, however my TSH has been averaging 3.47 and higher.

It's more my symptoms.

I have been house/bedbound after given a diagnosis of CFS 4 years ago. Used to be a gym manager and amateur powerlifter and natural bodybuilder prior to this.

My specialist Dr thinks that I may have an issue with rt3 which is not part of the standard tests.

I have been put on the thereputic dose above and seen 20%+ improvements in a week

Which is utterly remarkable when I have tried EVERYTHING in 4 years. Also I believe my extreme.dieting caused a hypothyroidism issue initially and that was misdiagnosed as CFS. I may be wrong, but I'm hopeful.

As you know the NHS tests do not tell the full story.

B

[cc120 in reply to kinoble]

I think my anorexia started off my health problems including hypothyroid.

[kinoble in reply to cc120]

Yep...diet or lack of wreaks havoc.on your thyroid.

[Aurealis in reply to QUE6T-33]

I wonder how reliable tests are, they can be so variable at different times of day due to diurnal cycle and also are affected by other illness, so high T3 can be associated with general illness/ infection can't it. I had cfs once and I think this was the beginning of my hashimotos when I may have had thyroid levels that were too high - hair loss, weight loss and chronic fatigue

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

I know for a fact they ARNT always reliable or at least consistent. as.my wife is hypo, and one test came.back 2.4tsh and the other two tests over 5.5. Taken at the same time, same place. With no medication to explain the changes.

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

How come she had three together, I've always wanted to do that to prove to them that the tests isn't reliable

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

She had one at 5.5, wasn t prescribed anything (Dr wasn't convinced)/continued having symptoms so had a repeat 6(?)/weeks later and it was around 2.5, my wife was not.convinced so had it again the next day I believe, same time etc and it was above 5 again!

Went on levotheroxine.

[QUE6T-33 in reply to kinoble]

Interesting. Were these bloods in NHS

[kinoble in reply to QUE6T-33]

Yep NHS bloods. Hence no rt3. That's privately being done next week.

[Hidden]

Hi Kinoble,

Looking at your blood results before you started taking armour I would question whether you are hypothyroid at all.

Your TSH is raised but your FT4 and FT3 are good.

Maybe you should check all vitamin and minerals especially ferritin looking at areas that might contribute to your CFS.

I would tread very carefully with the Armour. Don't raise to 1 grain yet.

The TSH does go up and down throughout the day and is also affected by our health, viruses etc.

I will be very interested to see what other have to say but with your FT figures I would suggest you proceed cautiously with medication.

Hyperthyroid is a dreadful feeling and you really don't want to go there!

[kinoble in reply to Hidden]

Hi Joesmum,

Like.I mentioned above it was based on my symptoms. Not the NHS approach.

My Ferritin, b12 etc has all been normal.in range and actually at the upper end of the reference ranges.

I have had every single hypothyroid symptom you can have over 4 years, and 30mg supervised by my Dr has given me 20% improvement in 7 days.

By all accounts the normal.tests do not tell the full story but I am keen for any enlightenment

Thanks for your reply,

B

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

I'd advise you to go slowly so you don't lose the gains you've made. Perhaps you could use your 20% improvement to do something that would help a bit more

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

Sure thing. Well I have already been on a couple of walks. Yea, they have only been a mile.or more but that would have not been possible a.week ago. Not a chance.

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

That's brilliant. Think of it as the beginning of a chain of events that'll lead to you feeling better. A mile sounds a long way with cf

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

It's is massively!!! 5% is a big deal let alone 20+.

[Hidden in reply to kinoble]

Ok, if you're feeling a slight improvement, stick with it. But don't be tempted to raise your dosage. Your FT3 is good in range and adding 30mcgs of armour will increase it further but you DO NOT want to go over range.

Thyroid medication is not a quick fix cure.

As clutter constantly reminds us symptom relief can lag behind good blood results by a few weeks.

If you are already feeling an improvement then stick where you are.

Just don't want you to go over. It's seriously unpleasant.

[kinoble in reply to Hidden]

Great advice thank you.

That's the whole point of my question- I DONT want to go HYPERthyroid hence why I am.asking and being tentative with dosages.

I'm not saying its the cure for me, however if it wasn't part of it surely i wouldn't have responded so well? Within a few.days?!

My Dr (Sarah Myhill) believes that I perhaps do not have enough active t3 getting into my cells.

Interestingly as well my spo2 levels have gone from.94-96/98% since taking the hormone. I might start a thread on that but I suspect it's implying better cellular function /oxygen.

[Hidden in reply to kinoble]

T4 takes about 6 weeks to metabolise and T3 takes about 3 days.

The improvement you're feeling must be the T3 as its too soon for the T4.

In other words I would recheck blood levels 5/6 weeks after starting 30mcgs.

If you do raise to 1 grain you will know pretty quickly if you've gone over.

You may feel anxious, jittery, panicky, hot, nauseas, headachy.

If you do want to raise then no more than 1/4 grain at a time.

But truthfully I would stick where you are and wait for it to work at a cellular level which as I say takes about 6 weeks.

[kinoble in reply to Hidden]

Perfect. Thanks for this.exactly what I needed!

My specialist GP did recommend.armour OR pure T3 so maybe the pure T3 would be a better long.term.bet.

[Hidden in reply to kinoble]

Give the armour chance to work fully before switching meds.

You may find it suits you and if it does- stick with it.

[kinoble in reply to Hidden]

Yep I will do. That's the advice I was given the other day too. The only worry was my T4 going over range...and making the rt3 issue worse of I'm.not converting properly.

Also...what would my bloods look.like.for typical HYPERhyroid?

[Hidden in reply to kinoble]

Highly unlike that your ft4 will go over range.

More likely FT4 will DROP in range as the TSH will detect the T3 in the system and shut down its own production of T4 thinking it has no reason to produce it. Hope that's clear.

[kinoble in reply to Hidden]

So really I just need to be mindful.of symptoms, and TSH level?

[Hidden in reply to kinoble]

Precisely.x

[QUE6T-33 in reply to kinoble]

What is spo2?

[kinoble in reply to QUE6T-33]

Sorry-blood oxygen levels. Above 95 is considered normal. 97+ optimal (by most).

[kinoble]

P.s. you guys are.awesome. and so helpful. It's much appreciated.

[kinoble]

Also while on topic....of it is the t3 in armour helping me should in split my 30mg dose into 2x15mg? Or not bother? I know the half life is short.with t3 hence my reasoning. Also best time to take ?

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

Yes two doses would be better, for the reason you've given above

[kinoble in reply to Aurealis]

Early morning and afternoon? Specific times?

Thanks A!

[Aurealis in reply to kinoble]

Depends who replies. Some will say breakfast and lunch, some go 8am 2am, others avoid taking with food. I'd say fit it in your lifestyle, you can always amend later

[kinoble]

Awesome. Pretty much what I'm doing now!

Thanks A!

[Glynisrose]

Your doctor will declare you hyperthyroid if your TSH is suppressed lots of people feel much better with a suppressed TSH which is actually a pituitary hormone NOT a thyroid hormone.

[SilverAvocado]

Kinoble , sounds like you and I had a similar level of mobility problems. I'm curious about whether you've managed to do any regular exercise or stretching?

I also used to be very active, and been been mostly in the house the past 2.5 years. I really regret seeing my flexibility reduce, posture get worse, et, so determined to get something regular going this Autumn. Very had to set the bar gentle enough

[kinoble in reply to SilverAvocado]

Hey SA,

I've had periods of gentle stretching but generally no. Yoga has been out. However since last week I could.probably do a little yoga session now, which is a.massive improvement.

I think you are right, its.about expectation and where to set the bar. Exercise for me now is a.little.walk, whereas before that would have been just something everyone does each day!!!

Fatigue on a cellular level is hard for a lot of people to understand. My tiredness is not sleepy, its sheer exhaustion like I have just run a marathon every single day, and where sleep, supplements rest and diet do not help. 30mg Armour has. Only thing in 4 years. But then the thyroid governs a huge amount in terms.of cellular function, use of energy and metabolism it makes sense. NHS labs not so much. B

[trevg]

It does seem to me that in all these comments the only constant seems to be that RT3 is indicating something wrong, somewhere. I

have had TSH levels between 3 & over 5 -whilst RT3 has been measured once at around 90% of range during this period, approx twice as high as optimal from all I've read.

This was a private test last year- but was enough to gain my conviction that Sub Clin HypoT was a 'get out' diagnosis in the NHS.

I now have the go ahead to start T3 -as T4 did me in, no mistake.

This is a rare event and I will update in a new thread, when I commence.

I also await a check out Diurnal Cortisol test result from Biolab, done in the US to make sure I'm not way out on adrenals. NHS does not use this useful test.