Or rather no sleep issues! It seems now that any change in routine is met with sleep problems.
Difficulty in getting to sleep and remaining asleep hence writing this post at 4am!
I'm attempting to see the dr in my practice today who was quite sympathetic to all the hypothyroid symptoms I've been experiencing but it's the usual ring up at 8am thing to try to get an appointment.
As an experiment, I had started taking some natural adaptogenic herbal remedies and they helped me sleep and remain asleep so much better. Stopped taking them to see what would happen and yes sleep issues are back again along with more headaches, pins and needles, feel like my heart is racing, all very typical hypothyroid symptoms!
I want to order the 24hr saliva test for cortisol as a typical day for me goes like this: get up about 8 am and generally feel blah till 11am, then I feel more awake till 3pm, get an energy slump.
Feel better after food and carry on till evening, don't feel too bad and then start feeling tired ish.
Attempt to go to bed at 11pm, any earlier is futile as even though tired - don't feel tired enough to sleep!
Then either manage to go to sleep but wake up around 2/3am - toss and turn but manage to get back to sleep or like tonight I am completely awake, go down for something to eat and read until hopefully am tired enough to go back to sleep!
If you do the saliva test and this shows your cortisol levels are out, what will your GP do about it? Can they prescribe anything at all? Is it another battle?
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kk12
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This is more a solidarity thing than any help because I'm exactly the same. Even though I've made changes like not switching on computer after evening meal, not watching TV after 9.0 pm still no solution. I've to be in bed by 10.30 pm or I've lost it for the night but usually wake before 5.0 am anyway. One thing that has added an hour or more to my hours of sleep is magnesium citrate. One of the many things that huge amounts of people are deficient in. I'll be interested to see what replies you get because it does seem to be a metabolic thing.
I'm taking a magnesium supplement since last week.
Took it mainly to control cravings which has worked but have noted other symptoms have got worse since stopped taking Ashwaghanda and Rosiola Rosea supplements.
This sleep issue is really getting me down though!
Thank you for your solidarity - I know I'm not alone!
The dosage on the meds says to take the Ashwaghanda 3 times a day and the Rosiola twice a day - not read about times to take them but will look that up thank you
Thank you very much. May I also ask if you have ever tried Melatonin and how does it compare with this magnesium? What dosage is taken and where do you buy it please?
I've got Melatonin in my arsenal. I bought it in the U.S. where you can get it from the supermarket. I took it with enthusiasm when I got home with it but now I don't bother. Mine is in a dropper bottle. It doesn't give reliable sleep so I guess lack of melatonin isn't my problem. Gosh our cupboards must be full of failed solutions.
It would be a good idea to get you adrenals tested. You are right in assuming the saliva test is not recognised by conventional medicine but it will give you a good understanding of how to treat your present health problems.
Saliva tests are preferred by functional practioners as they measure only the "free cortisol" which is biologically active and so available for use.
High and low cortisol levels can each present in similar ways but need different treatments to aid recovery. Adaptogens are powerful and can be beneficial but if taken incorrectly can be detrimental to your health and even delay your progress. It is wise to initially consult with a practitioner.
Doctors don't usually give thyroid hormone replacement until your TSH reaches >5 with symptoms or >10 without. In the meantime it would be wise to address your Vit D and ferritin deficiency as these could interfere with thyroid meds working anyway should you be prescibed them.
Hopefully your sleep patterns will improve along with your health
Thanks Flower - One of the things I was looking for last night was a naturopath/holistic doctor - I am also taking iron and Vit D supplements - think the lack of sleep may be taking away any benefits I may be feeling my taking them at the moment and also to add to it all - not been able to get to see the dr!
Sleep deprivation is torture and hugely detrimental to our health.
Obviously it is very important to address any sleep issues but rather than stabbing about in the dark, I think it important to consider the possible under lying causes that could be associated with an unmedicated thyroid hormone imbalance given your symptoms and previous test results, and possible cortisol issues.
If I were in your shoes I would concentrate on enhancing my health by eating a nutrient dense diet, supplementing deficiencies and investigating possible adrenals problems.
Any hormone imbalance will make you feel unwell and takes its toll on the body.
I am seeing a nutritionist with experience in this field as she suffered thyroid problems herself. I don't know where you live but I can pm you her details if you would like.
And do you know your B12 level? Because the pins and needles are more likely to be low B12 than low thyroid. Anything Under 500 is deficient - no matter what the range and your doctor says!
Hi greygoose - yes B12 level is 433 and have been supplementing with a B complex which has a big boost of B12 in it, the pins and needles are a new symptom and only occur in my left hand/arm !
Yes Flower that would be awesome - thank you. I'm in the East Midlands
• in reply to
R u uk based I would like checkAdrenals?plz administrator/ I am trying my best eat healthy etc at the end of my tether permanent fatigue/ headaches pain issues on thyroxine x
A response down a thread on another post is all too easily missed.
Please, for the benefit of everyone, avoid using "text speak".
• in reply to
Hello mollymaid,
Sorry to hear that you feel so unwell on Levothyroxine.
The adrenal stress profile I mentioned above refers to a saliva stress test by Genova. Many members including myself have used this test as it gives a more accurate reading of your adrenal health over a 24 hour period than the blood test offered by GP's. (links below)
After you have done the test post any results complete with ranges (numbers in brackets) for members to comment.
Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional and this information is not intended to be a substitute for medical guidance from your own doctor. Please check with your personal physician before applying any of these suggestions.
I've had really bad sleep issues, though mine have been associated with hyperthyroidism. My GP prescribed a short course of sleeping pills, but even those had no effect.
Then, by chance, a friend linked me to a page on a breathing/relaxation exercise called '4-7-8' (if you google it, it should come up). Incredibly simple, but it worked for me immediately. Worth a non-pharmaceutical try? Good luck: lack of sleep is terribly debilitating.
That's one half of the problem Jackie - getting diagnosed. Then only having half the picture - I've not felt well since last July and keep feeling worse and worse.
Hi If I was now in this position , I would start by using Blue Horizon and having test for TSH, T4 and Free T3. Then show to a doctor if show hypothyroidism Or if all, else failed treat myself, with a low dose of meds eg Armour thyroid.
Hi - very similar - have been hypothyroid since 94 but always 'over-medicated' otherwise got symptoms. In frustration with health service went to a nutritionist who recommended saliva test for cortisol. It cost me £90. The results came back that I am very low on cortisol throughout the day. However, the first GP who I went to treated me and the cortisol test with absolute contempt and in fact I came out of there feeling even more stressed and upset. I felt he was trying to portray me as a hysterical woman, but mostly I feel he was affronted because I had the temerity to find things out for myself and not rely on his professional knowledge. The second GP wasn't interested in the reason why I wouldn't return to the first gp, but sent me for an entirely pointless lung function test. The third gp was similarly slavish to the 'rules' but is doing an early morning blood test tomorrow. She didn't explain what it was - guessing it is a STIM test - and I think that this is looking for 'no cortisol' not low cortisol, since in the UK's health system you seem to only go from ok to Addisons disease with no spectrum in between which is ridiculous. When talking to my first GP he said that adrenal insufficiency/fatigue 'is not recognised'. I asked 'just because something is not recognised does this mean it can't exist?'. He said that was 'a very difficult question'.
In fact, in my last consultation, the gp said, well, we can do all these tests, but the treatment is very expensive' leaving me feeling degraded and insignificant. I am 61 but look a lot younger and want to work. What kind of a statement is that to make to a patient presenting as very poorly, worried and scared? Good luck, but don't give up, because I'm not. Getting angry is a good motivator!
I am now going to focus on the hypothyroidism as this seems to provide more of a chance, so why have I been over-medicated, with no exploration why, and particularly now when I have so many symptoms despite the over medication.
I asked the GP at the practice last time about saliva tests (not the GP I want to see) and she looked at me gone out and just said the NHS didn't support that re: adrenals and changed the subject!
Sorry to hear about your sleep problems - I suffered for years before being introduced to amitryptiline which has been a god send for me. Re: saliva cortisol, in my experience and as far as I am aware no GP, endo or other specialist will take them seriously - it is just so that you know and can take steps to remedy (!). Dr Myhill - a private dr has some info on her website regarding such matters and would take it seriously, as would a very few other private drs. Good luck.
I saw GP who said not thyroid related then heard about the breathing exercise 4, 7, 8 that has been a big help for me. The GP also had no idea what to tell me what result was just that it is in the range. Must add not my normal GP.
If the doctor was able to tell you that it was in range then he must have looked at your results and could have printed it off for you, but you must ask for it xx
I have the same problem, I can recommend listening to guided sleep meditations, it changes the brain waves back to peacefulness again, there are lots of guided sleep meditations on utube, it works much better with ear phones ( ear buds).
I found taking a small dose of my NDT in the evening has improved my sleep and stopped the nightmares, waking with pounding heart, tingling, breathlessness etc.
Would you please be kind enough to tell me what natural adaptogenic remedies have helped? I've tried many but maybe you can recommend one that I've missed . Lack of sleep is torture!!!... Thank you.
Hi Foxglove - through my own research on many forums - I went for Siberian Ginseng, Ashwaghanda and Rosiola Rosea - I was taking all 3 of those in a tincture format and my sleep pattern normalised. Ran out of Rosiola Rosea and then stopped taking the Ashwaghanda and within days, sleep pattern haywire again so will take it again and reorder the Rosiola.
I did an adrenal stress questionnaire on line which advised that I had moderate and very nearly high adrenal stress levels.
Hi kk12, good of you to reply - thanks. Sib. ginseng, ashwaghanda didn't work for me, have tried rodiola rosea along time ago and seem to remember it helped, not only with sleep but also anxiety. Thanks for reminding me of it. Gong into town now so will see if our local health store (H&B) has any in stock...I'm desperate!
Also did adrenal stress Q and result low to moderate but it's worse when I don't sleep. Moan over - enjoy your day.
I had to order mine on line from Amazon as don't think Holland and Barrett had any and I prefer to take tinctures and liquids as don't like swallowing tablets as it is! Good luck in getting some and feeling better!
H&B do stock but I thought a bit pricey so will order the liquid from Amazon. have to wait till next month as credit card a bit "stressed" also at the moment. thanks for your feeling better wishes!
Have you tried taking phosphatidylserine at night to lower high night time cortisol? Ashwaghanda also works to lower cortisol...I have terrible sleep problems due to shift work on top of Hashimotos. I also find that taking ashwaghanda and valerian together ( I take them as drops in warm water ), helps... Valerian is supposed to be good for GABA and balancing adrenalin and noradrenalin. I am also taking low doses of melatonin occasionally. Cherry juice/ cherries are a natural form of melatonin, and I find help, although they are both expensive. Also, magnesium helps...there is another theory that a lack of vitamin D can cause insomnia. I also occasionally take coleus Forskohlii, which I think helps me... Of course I run out of things and have to be able to afford to but them... Sleep can be a very complex thing....I started taking liquorice in high doses for a while during the morning for RAISING cortisol, but also for menopause, and that seemed to help with sleep at night. Good luck!
I am taking a magnesium supplement as well as Vit D - I really do feel that my body is not balanced at all at the moment hence the non sleep patterns and of the lack of sleep is not helping - I am lucky in the fact that I work for my husband and also have my own business and work from home because I would not be able to work for anyone feeling like this!
I am also peri menopausal and feel hot a lot of the time but my basal body temperature is low which is why I found out a few years ago that I wasn't ovulating when I should be!
I have read in various places that both liquorice root and alfalfa help with hot flashes, so possibly they can help you! They balance the sex hormones, along with Evening Primrose oil.. You are so lucky to be working from home, but that can be problematic too... I am a complete basket case at the moment! I am an artist and am also trying to earn mone doing that! Try phosphatidylserine if you haven't before....
I really sympathise with you. For over a year now I have awful sleep issues. Ive given in to taking sleeping pills. I don't want to be taking them but its the only way I can get through my days work. If you get any relief with natural remedies please let me know. I take Magnesium citrate B12 sublingual B12 complex and cod liver oil. I can fall alseep no problem but wake about 2 a.m. and cannot go back. I have Hashis and the sleep issues came during a period of overactive but Im way under now and still can't sleep.
melatonin is the answer. If you GP won't prescribe it you can get it on the internet, or get someone to post you some from the USA or Italy or Poland or any of the other countries where they sell it over the counter. Tiny amount, 1mg of sub-lingual melatonin should fix you. It's a natural hormone the body makes itself, and can rid itself of easily, it is not addictive, and it is not an opiate. It will send you to sleep - but it won't keep you asleep. However, going to sleep sounds as though it is what you need.
I've found a low carb diet has completely fixed 3 times a week headaches. Flabbergasted I was as I was doing it for weight loss (successful too) but the end of headaches was a huge bonus.
Another message of solidarity! I have a bad night but then find I'm anxious about getting to sleep the next day, which just perpetuates things. I'm definitely going to try the breathing exercise people have mentioned. I'm finding the herbal nytol to be quite good, it's got valerian in and I've read that with valerian you need to take it for a couple of weeks as it's cumulative, so the tablets might not seem to sort you out straight away. They don't make me feel groggy the next day like sleeping pills, and they're not addictive (apart from psychologically!). I've tried magnesium, which I find is ok for a few days, then it starts to make me feel 'hungover' the next day which isn't great! I hope you get some relief soon.
I've got no useful advice, I'm afraid, just thought I would add my voice to the many others who suffer with sleep problems. It isn't something any doctors I’ve seen have ever regarded as worth addressing - I don’t think they realise how sleep problems can be so debilitating and the knock-on effect during the day is horrible and affects how people function. In the grand scheme of symptoms I have had to put up with, it isn’t at the top of my list so I have tried to just “get on with it”.
I did have the Short Synacthen Test ages ago, with results that didn’t fit any boxes, so the doctor decided it was OK to ignore it. I didn’t have Addison's Disease I guess, which is basically all they were looking for.
I also had sleep issues - it would take hours to fall asleep, and then I would wake up, nearly always having to empty the bladder - at 1AM, 2AM, 3AM, 4AM, and was unable to get back to sleep til nearly 6AM, and would then only sleep til about 8AM or 9AM if I was lucky. It was seriously frustrating.
Here's what I did to correct it:
1. I began eating more. No more restrictions. I read a few of Matt Stone's books on diet recovery and eating for heat - restoring, healing your metabolism - basically how to eat for thyroid issues. You can find his books on Amazon. They're based on the works of Broda Barnes and a few hundred other doctors, healers, and scientific studies. Must warn you, he has an interesting sense of humor, some like it (like me), others accuse him of being too crass.
2. I began eating a LOT more. This actually made the constant steady weight-gain finally stop. See point #8 below for more on that.
3. I began eating a little something before bed, which included some salt and some sugar. Like cheese and crackers, and a piece of fruit, or a cup of ice cream. I would eat this within one hour of going to bed.
4. I began taking the amino acid glycine - 1g in the morning, 1g in the mid-day, and 2g before bed. I was shocked at how quickly this was able to knock me out and help me to fall asleep.
5. I don't suggest that everybody does this unless you know your hormone levels - but I started taking bioidentical natural hormone transdermally - and a lot of it. I used a brand called Progestelle, which is pure micronized bioidentical progesterone USP, in a base of fractionated coconut oil. No chemicals or additives. I applied it - 2 droppersful- to the bottoms of my feet before bed, and also used another dropperful in the morning, and another dropperful in the afternoon, as needed. Keep in mind that I was aware that my estrogen levels were sky high, compared to having virtually no progesterone. Do not do this unless you are aware of having too much estrogen and little-to-no progesterone.
6. I reduced my water intake. This is a very long explanation, but I suggest looking at an article by Ray Peat called: Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging. He covers the issue of water retention and hyponatremia that those with hypothyroidism are prone to. This is a very important facet of correcting the metabolism. Drink when you are thirsty. No more than that.
7. This took several months to fully correct, but the improvement was immediate. I am now able to fall asleep within minutes, staying asleep all night, waking up naturally with no artificial assistance, a full 8 hours after falling asleep. My body temperature has risen to normal ranges (from what was initially 95.6 degrees fahrenheit - a full 3 degrees low!), and the weight gain has stopped.
8. Do not be afraid to gain weight. Sadly, I gained 100 pounds before I learned to do what I wrote of above. It was in the enormous caloric increase that the weight gain finally stopped. It was scary - but when you've already gained 100 pounds, it's frightfully easy to say, well... I haven't tried eating MORE, so why not. You've got to lose the fear of gaining weight. So I focused on my health, and healing - realizing that the body requires energy to heal. Energy comes from calories and macronutrients. If you're not getting enough of them, the body can only survive - and survival does not include healing. Consistently undereating and denying glucose-filled carbohydrates tells your hypothalamus that you are starving, and the hypothalamus then commands the thyroid and the entire endocrine system to slow down, hold on to everything, because our ancient programming says you're in a famine. We're so programmed to believe that calories in, < calories out = lower weight, but that's dead wrong. That is the tiniest part of what is going on in our bodies. Sometimes it's the opposite - calories in > calories out = just what our bodies need to stop storing extra fat, drop the weight, stop the excess cortisol and adrenaline production, regulate the blood sugars, so we can also fall asleep and stay asleep.
9. I began seeking psychotherapy to assist with early developmental trauma and recent trauma which led to PTSD.
10. I began treatment for military neck - aka reversal of lordosis (spine curvature) in the cervical spine. The pinched cervical nerves from this condition have been compromising my thyroid function.
All of this was done without thyroid medication or any prescription medication of any kind.
I know how alone you feel. I know how devastating it is, how just wanting to get up and face the day takes more courage than you could ever imagine before you began to experience this. I know how hard it is to get up, to get in the shower, to get dressed, because of weight gain - and you did nothing to deserve it. You didn't binge on junk - you ate healthy. You did everything right, and your body has betrayed you - that's how it feels - and you feel as if people look at you and don't see your strength, but rather they make silent judgments about your laziness and eating habits, and they know nothing. It feels like such a heartless world for someone with hypothyroidism, and the medical establishment doesn't even know how to help, they take their blood tests, which don't even include your rT3 levels, and say "Look! You're fine! You just need to exercise and eat less" - and that is the very thing you did that made you sick in the first place.
Thank you - that's exactly how I feel. A lot of people don't know how alone this makes you feel.
I'm forcing myself to eat at the moment although I feel sick with a migraine. My neck aches, my ears are buzzing. I couldn't get to see the doctor today as the surgery messed up. The dr works on Tuesdays and Fridays and she's fully booked tomorrow. I've waited 2 weeks to see her as my husband got told some duff information to top it all off!
That's a source of a lot of anxiety in itself - just trying to get in to see a doctor in the first place. It took several months for me to get in - and the day came for the initial first-time patient visit - I was about to walk out the door to get there, and the phone rang, it was the doctor's office canceling on me. They told me to reschedule, and they couldn't see me for another month. It put me into an anxiety attack so bad, I had to go to the ER. But at least I didn't have to wait another month to be seen.
I hope you are able to get in soon and begin to have your questions answered, as this helps to relieve a whole lot of anxiety - having someone on your side, a partner to help you heal through this.
My husband is amazing in all this - I've seen 3 GP's at this practice, 2 were rubbish and the one I want and am waiting to see was the good one. My husband wants to get me referred to an Endo. I feel an absolute shadow of myself. I felt so well this time last year and now just feel a wreck.
If I were to diagnose myself then I would say I have sub clinical hypothyroidism with poor adrenal health and vitamin deficiencies. But as to cause who knows!
kk, the video I posted by a chiropractor completely supports some of 1133's comments. Dr. Bergman respects all functions of the body as you will note and warns against using chemicals to correct it. All of his videos have verified what I have learned over twenty years of study.
Hi kk, the latest article I've read (among hundreds) many people do very well on a few months of hydrocortisone at only 5 mgs. But try to get it. Very frustrating. That dose will not interfere with normal output or any harm to the adrenals. Such simple solutions seem to escape so called intelligent people.
I am also a hypoT patient. I would remind you of 2 things that could be applicable to your situation, which you won't run into reading one of those thousands of articles on the web about sleep problems.
(1) The body requires a rise in T3 about in the middle of the sleep cycle, to support the adrenals. Adrenal adaptogens (rhodiola, siberian ginseng, etc.) might help, but if your thyroid system is so damaged it cannot mount the T3 rise, the adaptogens probably won't help. Checkout "T3CM" at StopTheThyroidMadness.com. I take 15mcg of T3 (Cytomel) when I wakeup; this functions like a sleeping pill, but without side-effects.
(2) Make sure your Total Blood Protein is sufficiently high to give your body the amino acids it needs to make hormones and neurotransmitters. TBP normal range is 6.2-8.3 g/dl; mine was 6.1 before supplementation (my ability to digest protein foods was compromised by celiac). My doc says his vigorous patients all tend to have TBP that is at least mid-range (about 7.3 g/dl).
Thank you for that - I've not had my T3 tested but I've decided to go for the private blood tests and saliva tests to see where I am - I think a 100% full picture is better than just guessing but I know that my ferritin levels are apparently too low ( read on here) to actually convert T4 into T3 so if that's the problem area it needs help.
Started taking Ashwanghanda again today and already feel calmer so fingers crossed that I will sleep tonight!
Also have your albumin levels checked. I just got my results back and found that my albumin is low. Guess what albumin does, among other things? It transports thyroid hormones to your cells and organs. So even if your thyroid levels are all appearing normal, if you don't have enough transport protein - such as albumin - guess what - your thyroid hormones are not getting to where they need to go, which ends up with your body expressing hypothyroid symptoms, when the root cause goes to protein deficiency. To correct low albumin levels, you need a high protein diet, a high calorie diet, and to reduce inflammation. Check your spine, as a great deal of inflammation can originate from pinched nerves coming from the spine. Also meditate, as meditation in itself reduces inflammation. Additionally, stressful thoughts - particularly based in toxic shame - raise your interleukin-6 levels, which is an inflammatory cytokine. The weight gain and perceived failures surrounding your health often cause the very shame that keeps you in the cycle of poor health and weight gain. Must stay out of this trap. Additionally - once you can get your sleep back on track, this in itself will also help to reduce the inflammation that contributes to low albumin and protein levels.
Sounds like you have a lot of anxiety as well. I reached rock bottom a few months ago with a bereavment and looking after everyone else. I still have a problem sleeping, and have to get up in the night when my son is hypoglycaemic (he's type 1 diabetic), so can't take anything that will make me sleep as I need to be alert. Basically I had no time to look after myself and ended up off work 3 1/2 months - started phased return today. Anyway, the point I'm trying to get round to is worrying about not sleeping locks us in a vicious circle. I have found recently that if I read books when I go to bed (no matter how late it is), I reach a point where I'm so tired that I'm ready to fall asleep. At this point I stop reading, and the book is fresh in my mind instead of all the worries I have to deal with.
Thanks for your reply sewfossy and that's not a great situation for you for your sleep or stress levels either I'm not going to lie but yes there are certain things in my life that have caused anxiety and I don't think it's a coincidence that everything started to go downhill health wise from then on... basically I have a long term legal situation with my ex which has resulted in me having to sell the former marital home that he shared with me for less than 2 years and made NO contributions to - and thanks to 2 x professionally negligent solicitors, he will now be getting a 50% share of the equity which equates to £20 odd k!
I am sueing the 2 solicitors that have got me into this mess so if that's not stress then I don't know what is!
Oddly enough, the fact that I am now ill may actually be useful as I could potentially get more compensation in terms of damages with the stress of court case no 1 with the case of my ex now over and whatever else will happen next legally with the negligent solicitors and how/when that will resolve so yeah lots of anxiety and stress!
Gosh you are having a tough time. Thought I sensed someone else with anxiety. I'm sure chronic stress causes our thyroid problems. I've been seeing a counsellor at Beechwood Cancer Care since losing my dad. One day after weeks of discussing all sorts of everyone else's problems I've been dealing with she said where are you in all this? I thought about it & said she hit the nail on the head and I had lose my own identity.
Please look after yourself & be kind to yourself. Find things you used to do that make you happy again - I've joined a sewing club for some me time.
Use distraction techniques at bedtime like breathing exercises and reading & realise you have an inner strength that brought you this far xx
Aww thank you for your comments and I hope that you are feeling better in yourself.
I have a big distraction in that I have my own business so can devote time and energy into developing that which luckily I really enjoy - it's a wedding gift, accessory and jewellery business so surrounded with lots of pretty items lol!
I just want to have the best energy I can in running it.
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