Kefir, Kimchi, Kambucha, yes or no?

[Zebedee44]

Stuck at home yesterday by heavy rainfall outside I decided to listen to the recent ZOE podcasts and was inspired to make some kimchi from a tired old cabbage in my fridge. But now I’m wondering whether fermented foods are good for sufferers of autoimmune conditions and finding some conflicting information on the

I have been taking Kefir with my morning dose of pred for most of my PMR years, long before it became fashionable, and we hear constantly about our gut microbiome, but I’m really confused now.

[winfong]

I have IBS, and take fermented foods whenever I can (but not on a regular, daily basis). Very helpful for IBS, but I've never seen any effect on my GCA/PMR/LVV. And none of my docs (who know of both my conditions) have mentioned anything.

[Zebedee44 in reply to winfong]

Thankyou, I have read that regular daily use of fermented food is best, but that doesn’t necessarily mean kefir, kimchi or kambucha, especially if they are commercially made . There are lots of foods we eat daily without thinking about the process used to make them.

[PMRpro Ambassador]

The gut biome probably IS closely linked to the immune system - but a healthy gut biome is likely to result in a healthy immune system which fermented foods will help. I think the problem is they insist on using the word "boost" which suggests it may be making it more active which possibly wouldn't be ideal, whereas in fact it will be improving the immune system - and hopefully strengthening it so it does not become so deranged.

I loved kimchi when we were in S Korea - is it difficult to make? I've forgotten how to be domesticated ...

[Zebedee44 in reply to PMRpro]

Histamine seems to be the problem with regard to autoimmune conditions. It looks as if fermented foods are good to prevent immune reduced conditions but not so good for existing problems. Very confusing.

I followed the ZOE podcast instruction to make it yesterday but have yet to see if it is edible.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Zebedee44]

I eat Brie and other fermented cheeses and sauerkraut now and again - no problems. I also have used the VSL#3 probioticwith no repercussions.

Where I did used to need antihistamines was when eating wheat products and I also used to exhibit what the immunologist decided was a food allergy which only seemed to manifest after drinking heavier red wines!! Has never happened after white or rose or light reds such as we have here. She said we could test from now to kingdom come and not identify anything - so take an antihistamine! Seemed to work a treat!

[Flivoless in reply to PMRpro]

Ah, Red wine. I can almost remember how good it is but around 15 years ago it started to give me lousy indigestion. I was like a switch one day good next day bad. I have tried the odd glass since but even the merest sip still gives me gyp. White is ok though, so no real hardship. 🤪

[Sharitone in reply to PMRpro]

When I started on TCZ I was told not to eat unpasteurised cheeses. Were you told the same?

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Sharitone]

Don't think so. I have a booklet which I read at the time but that was a while ago.

[LBM1953 in reply to PMRpro]

I make kimchi in batches with Chinese leaves. Very easy to make. Supposed to use Gochujang chilli paste but I use chilli flakes. Basic recipe needs the Chinese cabbage, chilli, salt, soy sauce, optional fish sauce, vinegar, sugar, garlic, ginger. Keeps well in the fridge. Delicious.

[Zebedee44 in reply to LBM1953]

I haven’t really followed a recipe, just made a sort of coleslaw with cabbage, carrot and cooking apple, garlic and cumin. Salted it and left it for some hours before draining off the salt water. Keeping it in a cupboard at the moment and “burping” the jars occasionally. It might not work but otherwise I would have composted the ingredients which is wasteful. Nothing ventured nothing gained!

[piglette]

I have just finished reading The Diet Myth by Tim Spector. Thoroughly enjoyed it. He has written another book that has just came out as an update that I am getting for Christmas.

[Sophiestree]

I take all of those and have done for 20 years as I just had to go near an antibiotic to get thrush, not always in the obvious places as often in my ears. I tried making it but you do need the right equipment in case it explodes. I always have kimchi and kefir in my fridge and love a ginger kombucha....

since LVV and gut issues I probably eat it more. Vsl#3 is also in my fridge but I don't take it daily as it's £50 a box so that is for tougher times, but the slightest change these days can change everything so use it more often at the moment.

Kimchi is not to everyone's taste, but I prefer sour/savoury to sweet so perfect for me.

[Highlandtiger in reply to Sophiestree]

Likewise I always have kefir and kimchi in my fridge. I really enjoy them. I make my own kefir and have found somewhere to get raw unpasteurised kimchi which is really nice. I had a kombucha phase a couple of years ago. I'll maybe start again.

[Pr0jection]

I've been taking goat's kefir ever since I was diagnosed with gastritis years ago. It cleared it up. I've carried on taking it since being diagnosed with no problems. In fact on the days I've forgotten to take the kefir I've suffered with bloating and constipation. Hope this helps.

[Highlandtiger in reply to Pr0jection]

Is there a particular benefit in drinking goat’s kefir over cow's kefir do you know? I make my own kefir but with normal cow's milk (although I did use goat's milk once just to try it).

[Pr0jection in reply to Highlandtiger]

From what I've picked up goat's kefir contains Vit K2 which helps the absorption of calcium. At first I didn't like the taste but I've got used to it now and have three sips a day - breakfast, lunch and evening meal times, and it's the one thing I take when I get a touch of indigestion.

[Mota1]

For me the limiting factor is the high salt content of many of these foods. I do eat yoghurt and some fermented cheese. Are there recipes with reduced salt?

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Mota1]

wildfermentation.com/vegeta....

explains the processes and the reasons for using salt - plus discusses non-salt ferments.

[Mota1 in reply to PMRpro]

Thank you for that.

[Mota1 in reply to PMRpro]

An excellent article. Thank you very much. I will give it a go!

[Suedeshayes]

Hi. I have spoken to an autoimmune consultant and she said that if you take kefir, which helps and boosts the immune system, it gives the auto immune condition more to work on and perpetuates that condition. It kind of makes sense although I understand the idea of trying to keep the immune system healthy seems a good idea. This however, negates that idea. It’s a difficult one. Sue.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Suedeshayes]

I'm not convinced by that. Kefir will improve the gut microbiome - but I'm far from convinced it will have any effect on the autoimmune process. It MIGHT I suppose but it could just as well calm a deranged immune system down. Think it has to be "don't know" and try it to see how it affects you.

[Suedeshayes in reply to PMRpro]

Hi, yes, I’m tempted to try it even with the information from consultant. Sometimes I think one has to consider all options and ideas. As you say, it involves the gut, and maybe it has less affect on immune system.

[Highlandtiger in reply to Suedeshayes]

What were her views on kimchi and kombucha, do you know?

[Zebedee44 in reply to Suedeshayes]

Hello and Thankyou for your comment which supports my confusion about the benefit or otherwise of fermented foods for autoimmune conditions.

To be honest I am not convinced that any dietary change has improved my personal experience of PMR. Balancing the pred and my daily activity are the key for me. It would be lovely to find the magic ingredient which kept the pain at bay and gave me back my “sparkle” but I don’t expect it to be kimchi!

[Suedeshayes]

Hi. They were not discussed, only kefir, but as pmrpro says, maybe trial is needed. I have a friend who drinks kombucha and swears by it, however, she does not have pmr. Good luck. x

[LWNE]

I have been taking pred for nearly 4 years and nearly always take it with a glass of kefir unless travel prevents this...I have not had any tummy issues, but appreciate we are all different...Im also taking a supplement from FutureYou called cooljoints plus (main ingredient is boswellia serrata)...and after 3 months I think it is really making a difference...no morning stiffness at all...

[Zebedee44 in reply to LWNE]

I have also been taking kefir for that long so recently quite surprised to be prescribed omeprazole for acid reflux which was giving me heartburn and a sore throat every evening. I was beginning to fear I had throat cancer!

I take the omeprazole WITH the kefir before taking my pred and the problem has gone away.