I found this rather depressing and I’m worried about those without IT skills who don’t have an iPhone. It explains some of the recent experiences with GP surgeries.
medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/...
Sorry couldn’t edit to Primary Care and Secretary of State in the title.
I know quite a few people that can't or don't have an iphone, everything is "Apps"......this is so unfair, when I say anything, some people say, but that's the way everything is going!.. Grrrr!One elderly lady said, the world will be happier when us oldies have gone....very sad....but I know some in their 50's that struggle.....
So do I. A lot more will be lost in terms of the patient /doctor relationship.
Those in the office will be deciding who to see a doctor or not....patients won't be able to express how they are feeling.....I wonder if GP's will prefer it...
What next? Robots for home care? Some enterprising person will be inventing 'Build Your Own Nurse' kits.
NHS is fast becoming DIYNHS……
.... and no NHS as we've known it. All in the plan!
Then they get annoyed when we look things up and participate in brilliant forums. 🙄
I would hope that this will be brought in gently and sympathetically, it is basically what I have been doing for the last two and a bit years with no problems, also I've not had anything major wrong with me, but it won't suit everyone, whether they are happy and competent or not with IT, Samsung, Apple, Windows or whatever. It certainly can't replace an f2f meeting with medical staff when relevant and needed.
Add to that HMG's record with IT systems and one is not filled with confidence.
The cost of these phones means a lot of 'oldies' just cannot afford to buy them never mind how to use them. Methinks I need to join Pensioner Power.
I thought you were already! 😉
Ok Ok so I got out of my pram when I was 68...................
..needs must, and all that! 😊
😊 Big stupid grin = 😈
Wish there was pension power....lots would join....but I do think it will get complained about by many people....before it gets off the ground.....hopefully.....
Actually - they mostly have grandchildren - though it was my daughter who gave me her old phone when she was due an upgrade. The cheapest option I have here for a SIM card is 8.88 euros which is under £7.50 per month and has a massive amount of data download (actually more than I have with my broadband contact at home). I'm sure there will be a parallel in the UK.
There are very few elderly people here without a smartphone.
Don’t forget that there are many people who are not on this forum because they haven’t got an IPhone or smart phone neither have they got broadband and also many can’t afford it. So this NHS idea isn’t really good news. Also no all elderly people have children or grandchildren who can help them.
I keep having problems with my NHS App…. sometimes working then not working at all. Contacted the surgery practice manager who gave me again step by step instructions to reset the App…. again worked for 2/3 days then state ‘no access to your records !’…. So we go again. This is not good at all.
It was a generalisation. I don't have a smartphone, living in Italy I have no need for one. I'm quite aware people don't - I was pointng out that actually they needn't be that expensive: inherit one as I have and get the cheapest available SIM. That is a lot cheaper than having a landline. Don't think it is right - but it is inevitable.
They should make the NHS app and the GP online systems function properly for patients before they announce this. I have found them to be pretty awful and can imagine many people giving up. Much is promised but most of that isn't being delivered.
I really appreciate using our GP practice website to order repeat prescriptions and check blood results. Pre covid and lockdown we could pre-book appointments with GPs and nurse practitioners. This was removed and we now have a telephone triage appointment to decide who is the best person for us to see. I can't see the GPs wanting to go back to allowing online booking for appointments. I know in the past I have booked a GP appointment when it would have probably been more appropriate on to speak to the pharmacist or nurse practitioner.
Yes but it would be nice to have the choice to book an appointment. Sometimes you know it’s necessary -say booking a blood test or BP check with nurse/health assistant. Why waste everyone’s time on phone call/triage when the you know what’s required -and it only takes minutes to do it!
The margin for error worries me. I already know the manipulative words to use ie blood, kept me awake all night, family history etc. once you get past the triage there seems to be another effort to bat you away by the GP. Our conditions will be badly served by these changes I think. They are chronic, changeable and sometimes insoluble.
Agree completely. I worry that without f2f appointments, many conditions and illnesses will not be picked up. As a nurse, I was trained to look beyond the obvious when considering a diagnosis or even just the general state of well being of a patient......if for instance they were being seen for a finger dressing but sat down awkwardly, were they in pain somewhere else. Maybe their skin pallor looked very poor or there were signs they'd been crying..... all suggesting other issues going on.
You can detect so many other important signs that enable an accurate diagnosis to be made from such simple things like a patient's demeanour, how they're responding, sitting, etc...and these will be completely missed.
Quite often, patients will not relate all relevant details, either because they don't deem that extra information important or simply don't want to.
This will not be the NHS at its best.
Oh!!!..... and I don't have an iPhone but I'm happy with my Samsung so won't be buying one any time soon!
It’s rather heartbreaking really. I would rather pay for some treatments and certainly for bothering A&E and Ambulances unnecessarily than destroy something that was so good with the potential for looking below the surface and allowing real healing to occur.
My neighbour was horrified because he was going to have to wait for spinal surgery to decompress a nerve here in Italy - so he went privately. We're talking about 2 months!
My limited experience of the Italian medical system was very impressive. We gloat about ours yet it has been allowed to seriously deteriorate over the past years.
I'm in an autonomous region - and loads of Italians head here for medical treatment because they think it is better. What they can't do here is sent to Italy or to Austria.
It infuriates me when people gloat about "NHS free care" as if it were unique - apart from the fact it isn't free, the UK is by no means the only country that provides care without demanding proof you can pay. We have co-pays and they can mount up but there are exemptions for chronic illness (not a code for PMR mind you!) and for low household income. A prescription is max, 2 euros although you have the choice of the generic which is covered or the brand where you pay the difference in cost. Private appointments cost about 70 euros for most things - so not a massive committment if you need it
Hé would have to wait much longer than that in the UK!
I don't have an iphone either but a desktop to book blood tests and repeat prescriptions.....I walked into an appointment before covid started and GP said you are walking like you have myopathy, that's not what I went for....
Can’t see that over the phone - unless they are going to be issued with X-ray eyes instead of a diploma when they complete medical training!
Yes, and she was right, it has escalated from then on....Bet lots of doctors won't like it...and once again if patients can't be seen they will go to A&E
You have explained very clearly what the problems will be. You were a nurse so can speak from experience. This new useless HNS will not look nor care about patients as it should. What exactly will GP do then? Will they become grossly overpaid administrators?
Suspect they are there already ...
Unfortunately so. Since they won’t work as doctors most of the time perhaps a pay decrease should be expected. But it won’t happen…. Anyway most of us already have to self-diagnose, do lots of research and push for referrals and treatment. This is definitely the end of the NHS.
I feel exactly the same. Making it more difficult to access a GP as if it wasn’t hard enough. It will make the doctors’ lives easier at the expense of the patients. I am not surprised.
Medicine is still way over subscribed as a degree. I actually think the obvious answer is more doctors. It beats me how these proposed policy changes can be in response to a global pandemic which is bound to be repeated unless the root cause is dealt with eg. The way humanity treats animals and the environment.
It is the obvious answer - but hanging on to the ones they have would be a good start. They have lost a lot to the BigB word - and won't be getting the usual replenishment again. They keep going on about recruiting more doctors - but it takes a long time to train doctors and nurses and any other HCP. And for GPs it is even longer.
More doctors but if they carry on choosing not to see patients f2f then I really can’t see the point. It certainly won’t improve the patients health issues. Whilst I understand the logic in not seeing everyone with a slight problem there are too many people who have serious conditions who would deteriorate rather quickly and very painfully. There is also the obvious risk of not diagnosing serious and threatening health issues, like cancer, etc.
I agree, currently we don't need a triage appointment for such appointments but need to telephone not able to book online
Same here…
I do agree.
We still have the option to contact GPS online, then see them if necessary. Post code lottery! You can always contact your Patient Participation Group and make your feelings known if you live in the UK 👍🏻
Hi Jane,
This is transcript of today’s speech - feel free to copy link into your post or new post if easier - quite lengthy. Guessing (hoping) there may be something more succinct in days to come -
gov.uk/government/speeches/...
Looks a good speech actually, but too lengthy for me to take in tonight 😴
I agree with the poster who said it’s becoming a DIYNHS……it seems that we decide the issue we want to ask about, ie we are a long way on the road to self diagnosis, before we even get to speak to a medic. Not good enough I’m afraid!
Agree…and it was me!
My daughters want me to come back to the UK - they both work on the front line of the NHS. I think they are beginning to realise my medical care here is rather more accessible than the NHS. The one who works in A&E says all she hears is "I couldn't get to see my GP". And by the time they get to her - they really are sick and in need of hospital care.
My daughter is a senior nurse, has always been committed to the NHS, and even she has suggested I try to see an ophthalmologist privately!
Me too - I will suggest private to anyone I think would benefit now. Trouble is, the really good rheumies don't all do private - Rod Hughes is an exception. And it is so wrong - introduce a mix of private and NHS like it used to be, NHS piggy-backson private and the NHS benefits from a shorter waiting list. All private people are NHS too anyway.
Skim read this. Huge amount of waffle, little meat. Chat about listening to patients but no description of the channels to do this including those already in place - Healthwatch and the Patient Participation Groups. He outlines the issues we confront lengthily but accurately. No reference to staff training and numbers required to make his plans effective, nor indeed realistic budget expectations. No reference to those who don’t have phones/computers or how the NHS will deal with those patients. No indication of how patients are to be triaged or what the practice websites will be for. The idea that families will aid in prevention of chronic illness was insulting to those who don’t have families and there is no clear evidence that this will work. Etc etc. I’ll stop. 😀. Thin rhetoric. Disappointing.
“Huge amount of waffle, little meat”….usual government policy then. 😳.
Thank you DL. I wonder how it went down with the Physicians? Call centre medicine #&@*!
Actually my initial link from Medscape was quite enough to get me in a lather.
I know so many people who just won’t engage with technology and they are in the older age groups therefore more likely to have complex health needs. How on earth will they cope with managing their own healthcare via an app.?Then of course we all know how unreliable technology can be at times. One of our GPs can’t even cope with his list of phone calls without the phone playing an alarming tune and cutting out. It’s happened to me twice now.
Some of the ideas in the speech have merit. It’s actually primary care and the absolute need to see a GP in person initially, that worries me most,ie if this becomes really difficult.. My Graves’ disease was spotted because my eyes were protruding. Prior to this we were on an anxiety path. Exophthalmic goitre not stress, it sounded like stress though.
I completely agree. My former GP deliberately would call me into the office, rather than having the resceptionist send me in, so she could see how I was walking as this gave her some idea how well the treatment for PMR was working, She had, of course, seen me hobbling untreated right at the beginning. Having since pandemic had both types of visits I'd say virtual is great for a lot of stuff, like prescription renewal or discussion of test results, but in-person is still the best, especially when you are having real problems or a new diagnosis is in the cards.
Totally agree SJ 😊
Technology can be a barrier, yes, but even if one is competent with it, there is the issue of patients having to decide what questions to ask, and thereby effectively partially self-diagnosing. And if GPs and others don’t actually see us, as you say, how can they practice as true clinicians?
Whatever it is, it’s not healthcare!!
It would help if NHS and GPs had computer systems that communicated with each other! OH discharged after 3.5 months with party bag full of goodies to last 10 days. Went to pharmacy who had no instructions, GP had not received discharge notes so no record of heart medications - told our computers have different systems so we'll have to phone them and it's so difficult to get through!
It would be great if it actually worked. For me, in Cheshire, it's impossible to book an appointment online, there are never any available. I like to use the online access to my records. Our surgery uses the Evergreen Life app which is better than the NHS one. However I can't see letters. No use for my blood results from my rheumy appointments. I have to ring the rheumatology nurses. Prescription ordering is easy on the app but they never read my accompanying note so I have to phone the surgery. E.g. I asked for 2 months of calcium instead of one. Ignored. OH doesn't have a smartphone and won't get one as a matter of principle. He has had no end of trouble reordering prescriptions as the surgery don't let you drop in any more for repeats so he has to phone. As he works he can't ring till he gets home, then can't get through. They also lost his urgent referral letter from his private consultant - twice. He's waited over a month now, even though he took a copy in and gave it to reception! The whole system is falling apart.
Long time ago I mentioned the notes on repeats because I need 3 months when I last went to NZ -but was told by the pharmacist that they don’t get to see them! They just get the ‘official ‘prescription form once actioned by GP. So whoever reads the request doesn’t pass all the information on to GP or pharmacy -bonkers!
Maybe the Health Secretary should issue everybody with a sell by date
and maybe the Health Secretary should pay for an upgrade for my basic Doro Pay As You Go phone without all the overwhelming amount of 'stuff' on it that I would never use on a smartphone . £20 over 2 years for texts/calls/and just in case of emergency.
😂
I do like using the Internet and have since it became a thing. 1994 was my pivotal year and I could see virtual GP appointments coming albeit slowly.
COVID really hit GP Surgeries hard and I cannot blame them for cutting out a lot of face to face appointments. I have always been wary of waiting rooms full of people coughing and sneezing many with just a cold.
In the future I foresee pharmacies introducing quick GP appointments in some way, shape or form. I think that would be good.
I look up symptoms and solutions often and just use three websites for answers. This is one of them, then the NHS site followed by John Hopkins in the USA. Then when I have a bit of an idea I put in an econsult. I have a wonderful relationship with my main GP and that is helpful
I am 70 and a real computer lover but I see people my age struggling and this is where, I think, some form of internet training for people would help.
This could be done at pharmacies or gp surgeries with the person doing the training in a small room with a COVID protection screen in place…
The thoughts go on in my mind! David
Something they did here at the start of Covid was send teenagers to coach over 70s (or so) who had never had a computer or smartphone in using video calling. And I do see far more really elderly people behaving like the average teenager glued to their phone on the bus or train or sitting at a cafe. They have embraced it.
Embracing it is good! Think 🤔 there is a whole new world for them out there with a phone or iPad and if we are in hospital there are all the superb options such as Netflix and so on to watch plus free newspapers and so much more.
D
Every couple of years we have phone upgrades and the old ones go nowhere. There must be loads of free 2 year old phone lying around. The networks are no longer able to keep them locked to their network. There must be loads of larger companies with old phones lying around. There must be someone who is redistributing the second hand phones rather than them going to landfill.
More apps is just a pain, I think at lot of us say not another App. Then you here about people using Apps being scammed by people who know how to infiltrate your device.
Old phones can be recycled - very often through local charities -please look online in future rather than putting them in the drawer….
You still need to be able to understand and operate them though.
Yes you do - but this was a suggestion to Bignorhill to do something useful with old phones and raise money for local charities at same time.
Which is a really good idea. I dipped out to read about poor beleaguered Ukraine.
Just watching press conference from US on same subject…joint US/UK
Multi tasker. 🙁
Exactly - my younger daughter has recycled her old phones amongst family and friends.
Many GP surgeries are unfit for purpose and these reforms will make them abominably worse. I have spent the last 15 months caring form my 87 year old mother who was diagnosed with lung cancer in 2020. She had already faced appalling neglect due to covid lockdowns including dental deterioration due to her various other ailments. Her specialist treatment was efficient though without much care and letters from her oncologist to her GP surgery often went ignored until I called up to point out that there were instructions in the letters that needed to be actioned. The "gate-keeper" receptionist/secretary system is shocking and the policy of not informing patients about test results "because nothing is wrong" leaves many already frightened people in a state of high anxiety. Humanity has been totally removed from the NHS management system and it is disgusting.
I so agree to your last statement. OH was told by reception that his blood results were all normal when a week later he got a letter asking him to 'see' the GP because they were abnormal!
Mark you could log into your GP surgery econsult (or similar) and see test results. David 
I have the Airmid app, which I was introduced to when visiting the surgery to ask what my blood test results were and cheerfully told they don't bother telling us unless something is wrong. All fine and dandy provided one understands medspeak but in many instances the medical language shown in test results is meaningless to me. I like having things explained by a doctor/medic so that I can interact and ask questions about my health.
But my main gripe is that this online e-crap is thrown at people like my frail, confused, 87 year old mother who is suffering from the after effects of radiotherapy and other co-morbidities. Just a few weeks ago the surgery wanted to conduct a kidney test and to do so, they fired off an SMS telling her to download an app and follow the instructions on how to assess her urine. She can barely stand up and so she was terrified but was fortunate enough to have me here (for the last 15 months separated from my missus and watching my business tank in Hong Kong) providing the care that the state is incapable of supplying. She's my mother, so I don't resent for one second the sacrifices I have had to make to be here to care for her but I do resent watching a system, that takes up a huge percentage of the nation's GDP, creep rapidly towards a total separation of patients from human medical interaction. My mother was very badly neglected by the NHS system throughout the Covid nightmare as well as throughout and after her cancer treatment and she is probably just one of many, many thousands. As her full-time carer I have to jump through hoops to get her the medical attention she needs when those needs are beyond my abilities and so the system neglects this in need and adds a double whammy by creating a sense of helplessness and guilt leading to extreme grief and anxiety to caregivers like me. The NHS is making people sick. It is appalling.
This is utterly heartbreaking. It makes us feel angry and helpless and we don’t know where to turn for help. You articulate the issues so well, I feel that they should be elevated to people in a position to do something. I doubt that these issues are well known amongst the young and healthy. MPs or the Press spring to mind. Although having composed MP’s response letters in a past life, I know it will be a reiteration of government policy and spin. So sorry, your poor mum, how frightening for her.
Thanks, SheffieldJane. I'm pretty sure Sajid Javid is on a nice fat BUPA policy and when feeling a tad off-color he'll pop into see a BUPA doctor who also double-dips at a NHS clinic one or two days a week. We can't blame the medics for taking advantage of a system that creates these circumstances but we can despise the likes of the Heath Secretary for not having a clue about the suffering of the UK's sick people because he doesn't have to partake of the system's poor services.
As for people who're in a position to do something, I always thought people who were paid six figure salaries were rewarded thus precisely because they were deemed capable of doing things but alas, we live in times where it seems the more you're paid the less capable you are. And there are hundreds of these parasites clogging up the NHS and improving precisely nothing.
Bravo, well said 👏👏👏
Hi markranson 😊
So sorry that you and your mum are going through this - it’s nothing short of a disgrace. I wish that any words of mine could help, but practically speaking, of course they won’t.
I applaud you both for your dedication to your mum and for the clarity and eloquence of your post. I agree with SheffieldJane, more voices like yours need to be heard.
Good luck to you and your mum, and don’t forget to take care of yourself xx
Thank you, Nextoneplease. It's been an anxious and angry 15 months and it was back in January to April 2021 during my Mum's chemo and radiotherapy sessions where I realized that to an extent my Mum's circumstance weren't too bad given that I was with her. I saw so many old people on their own and wondered how they coped when they got home if there was nobody there to do the things that I was able to do for my Mum. It was heartbreaking with the Covid restrictions adding to the lack of humanity and making it even more so. But let me be clear; The NHS frontline staff are for the most part brilliant but they're severely stretched and let down by the same system.
This whole thread could do with being summarised and sent to the Health Secretary, Sajid Javid. Unless clever headlines and contracts for supporters are the name of the game.
In my opinion after all these replies, many concerns, if we had a decent NHS they would excuse the over....whatever age....and let them opt out....but I know I'm dreaming....it would be ageist!!.....
It would be affirmative action for a disproportionately disadvantaged group, but possibly unworkable. Perhaps a case could be brought under the Equalities Act? Unless it has been quietly repealed like other enlightened laws.
I had to ring my surgery today to ask a couple of questions for myself and OH, they were very friendly effecient and helpful, at the time I thought this would be such a shame if it all changed......I am sure we will soon see many people like ourselves having their say....
Well it's your thread....
True, but I am not well. 🙂
I was just thinking I was doing well but I never believe them about calling me if there is a problem with my blood test results. So rang and a receptionist said she wasn't medically trained ring the next day I would be able to talk to my dr as he was the Duty Dr, But that didn't work as the person on the phone had a little conflab with her colleague and said they would get the pharmacist to ring next day--- hung about all day but no call so went back to the surgery to the pharmacy window and the girl said they didn't ring people, looked up my screen, wrote a note and said take it to reception (about 3 metres ways) It said read " task". The task said repeat blood test as insufficient blood. When I complained about them not even reading the relevant bits they said the person on the phone must have been new. And that they prioratise who to ring first if there is a problem. I have other problems I need to discuss, but like others I'm just putting it off.
Been waiting since April to talk to someone about my prolapse, have checked and they have upped that to 50 weeks now. No the NHS isn't doing it for me. I guess I have to be grateful I had one cataract done, the other depends on them and the clout of my optician as they have given me one good eye it seems!!!!!???
Just not surprised by this. I've only been able to access my GP surgery via online triage for the last couple of years. There's no other way. The online enquiry with full details of the problem will then receive a response via email or telephone call, the urgency of response judged by whoever in admin does the triage or read through. Generally the response rate has been very good and pretty efficient with a GP appointment where the surgery deemed necessary. This is where things have gone wrong in some cases as none of us ever seem to see the same GP twice for a single complaint which with longer term problem like PMR is a bit of a nuisance. When the practice changed to the online system there was much concern and for awhile the Reception staff did the online access for elderly callers taking their details in the call and filling out the online access for them over the phone. So they were offering a degree of help for the elderly or infirm who couldn't use or didn't have a computer. I can only hope this will continue especially for those who don't have the latest iphone or android. 🤞
Seems the elderly are not considered anymore. My mother in law doesn't have a mobile or computer. She lives alone is hard of hearing poor eyesight but maintains her independence. How awful for her
I wonder if this has been raised in Parliament? It is a significant issue worthy of being raised by a local MP. I listen to Today in Parliament on BBC Radio 4 . They were discussing disability rights tonight, there were a lot of champions.
