Lymphatic system affected? Intolerance? Gut health?

[eclilley]

Hi chaps, quick question.

Can the lymphatic system commonly be affected by/involved in B12D/PA? I'm wondering how connected or not certain things going on might possibly be.

And are any intolerances sometimes associated or prevalant, e.g. intolerance to alcohol, histamines, other. (I was tested for coeliac & was negative.)

I have not had investigations into my B12D and so have not had any "ologist" referrals thus far, but just wondered as a more general question re the above things.

I am attempting to start some general dietary gut healing for myself & my daughter (who has asthma/eczema/hayfever/moods) of the sort one can readily do at home, nothing "off the wall"! But just wondered if there are generalised things to be aware of or doing for PA/B12D .

TIA 🙂

[PointOfReference]

I'm certain there'll be better-informed types than me to help you with some science/research on the lymphatic system. B12 can affect people in different ways, but it's known to affect three core areas: Nerves, DNA, Blood Cells.

But, anecdotally, alcohol is a known pressure point for B12 deficiency.

I think this links to B vitamins being stored in the liver. And alcohol, or heavy alcohol use, can deplete stores/rinse out the liver's reserves of B12. So when heavy or chronic boozers don't eat well, which is often the case, they often show up as severely deficient.

So in a direct way, alcohol can be seen as an intolerance if you're B12 deficient (and use may hasten a mild deficiency into a severe one).

[eclilley in reply to PointOfReference]

Thanks. I've never been much if a drinker, and even when younger had a pretty low tolerance and often poor outcome from drinking nights! I gradually became more & more intolerant & didn't really bother as I often felt terrible after just 1. I don't drink at all now, and don't really miss it. I am sure it is linked to my B12D, and as you say the depletion by alcohol/using up of B12 for detoxifying.

Some alcoholic drinks obvs also have the sulphites etc etc, which can be allergens, and I think sone have higher histamine too.

I had a half glass of 'Zero' in the week, who is totally alcohol free, and I think is fermented grape juice poss high histamine?), and no doubt various additives. Let's just say, my digestive system has banned me from repeating that experience!!

[PointOfReference in reply to eclilley]

Right. Perhaps it's good to avoid anything toxic to the liver then. This may include drinks with additives, energy drinks etc will put the pressure on.

Basically, anything that's fun to drink is pretty much off limits!

It's OJ and water for my B12 recovery I'm sad to say, along with some reminiscing about my carefree youthful indulgences!

[eclilley in reply to PointOfReference]

That's pretty much me, too. I drink OJ, generally with Spatone added, with my dinner. I have been trying to get into a better water habit lately. I do drink standard tea - too much & am trying to reduce a little and have herbal a bit. And I often have Ovaltine at night too. At Christmas I did have the tiniest snifter of ginger wine, probably 3 times, with no notable effect, so maybe that's got less of something. Red wine is the absolute worst for me.

[wedgewood]

if you have PA , your “gut” is affected because your parietal cells are attacked and neutralised by the Intrinsic Factor antibodies that that autoimmune condition produces . You will therefore lack the I.F. and stomach acid which those cells produce and are needed to break down and absorb vitamin B12. Lack of stomach acid upsets the stomach flora ( good bacteria ) and bad bacteria takes over, causing bloating , nauseous reflux and pain . I found that a probiotic preparation called Symprove helped me , plus adequate treatment with B12 injections . I also had an acidic drink with meals , which i see that you do too in the shape of orange juice . Six years on , with self-administered weekly b12 injections and a sensible diet, “gut “ problems are resolved .

[Baggy8 in reply to wedgewood]

I'd read on here the benefits of Symprove, but just couldn't afford it. I therefore have gone down the home made probiotics route, make my own sauerkraut and Kombucha and adore Kefir Greek Yoghurt. I also make my own sourdough so I know what I'm eating. The result for my guts has been brilliant and as a bonus I love making them. Anyone who fancies giving this option a try and boosting their gut microbiome would get the same results from shop bought goodies too!

[wedgewood in reply to Baggy8]

You’ve done the right thing .I only took Symprove for 3 months , and making your own sauerkraut etc is even better !

[Gambit62 Administrator]

PA is an auto-immune disorder of the gut so if you are having problems with gut health that could be part of the answer. I find I need to eat a lot of roughage and I also drink acidic drinks to help replace some of the low stomach acidity that comes with PA.B12 deficiency is a consequence of B12 absorption problems caused by PA (there are other absorption problems that can lead to deficiency but PA is the most common one). On its own I don't think just having a B12 deficiency would cause gut problems but most of the absorption problems that lead to B12 deficiency are gut disorders.

Not sure that B12 deficiency/PA is directly linked to problems with the lymphatic system as a whole - possible that if you have PA you have also developed another auto-immune disorder and that is causing the inflammation that is affecting the lymph system.

[bookish]

Hi, some interesting questions. I don't know whether B12 and lymph have particular connections, but poor lymphatic function is pretty common and quite simple to add a few exercises into your daily routine to see if it gives you a bit of improvement. I do a set twice daily, just a few minutes, and it reduces pain and tenderness, and swelling. Also seems to help cognitively. Great idea about focusing on the gut. Gut and liver function seem to be foundational. Both could also be contributing to your histamine issue which could be a lack of enzymes to clear the histamine, an excess perhaps due to high intake of histamine containing or releasing foods or high oestrogen, or perhaps a mast cell dysfunction of some sort. B12D can occur with mast cell issues mastattack.org/2017/10/mast... , and all of your daughter's listed symptoms could be histamine and/or mast cell. Might be worth persevering with the gluten/Coeliac especially if you have any family history. Coeliac testing misses a lot of people so don't rely on it. I am managing a mast cell issue with diet and supplements, am grain free with considerable benefit and am trying to focus on the fundamentals of blood sugar imbalances (which have far wider ranging effects on the body than you might expect and are also common), improving digestion and gut and liver, plus vagus nerve and ensuring blood flow particularly to brain. An anti-inflammatory, autoimmune type diet has helped me a lot. Some of my neuro symptoms improved hugely once I started a liquid methylcobalamin and particularly a small dose of methyltetrahydrofolate. Many are ok with folic acid, I know, but it didn't work for me and methylfolate does thank goodness! You may find the methyls raise histamine more than you can handle, so take it gently if you decide to try them. Best wishes

[Narwhal10 in reply to bookish]

Thank you for the link. How did you find out you had this please ? Someone on gluten free gorillas mentioned this. I take quercetin, follow AIP diet and cannot get enough basil. I started taking berberine which I have found helps with blood sugar but suspected SIBO. Many thanks

[bookish in reply to Narwhal10]

Hi, like most of what seems to be wrong with me, from symptoms over time and a good diary! I have a helpful neurologist. I'm using quercetin and find it really helps but try not to take too much of it, also use vit C, magnesium (hugely useful), and a lowish histamine diet (I have reintroduced small amounts of things that I seem to be able to tolerate, so that I keep the diet as diverse as possible). I didn't know about basil, so thanks for that. I eat a lot of watercress (and take less quercetin when I have that), use EV olive oil and ginger. There are a lot of underlying causes for mast cells to be somewhat haywire including all the fundamental stuff, like stress, blood sugar imbalances, poor digestion so inadequate nutrients, food intolerances, low oxygen - all of which impact brain function so affect neurotransmitters and can throw hormones out of kilter (and oestrogen is a big one for mast cells/histamine and autoimmunity). I think the more attention we pay to the basics, the less likely we are to need to target individual symptoms. Cheers

[Narwhal10]

Hi there,I’m sorry I know very little about the lymphatic system. I started body brushing recently as that’s supposed to stimulate it. Did you have tTg blood test (95% reliable) as opposed to IGA (no idea how reliable but less so). Like bookish said there’s no guarantee. You may have gluten sensitivity but according to Prof Dave Sanders money for research of this is pretty low.

Yes, drinking more water is great. Maybe consider having an alternative milk as opposed to dairy. Honey as a sweetener instead of sugar.

These are mere suggestions and I follow the autoimmune protocol diet (similar to the paleo) which is no big hardship for me as I’ve done it on and off for years.

Best wishes

[lynxis]

I have lymphatic issues; mildly enlarged lymph nodes all over my body that seem to be permanent. I have had biopsies on 2 different areas (10 years apart) and both came back benign, but there has never been an explanation for it. I also have lipomatosis, which they believe is caused by lymphatic dysfunction. Not sure how or if it is correlated with PA or autoimmunity in general.

I stopped eating gluten and dairy 10 years ago and it helped me a lot. Then I had a food allergy blood test that pointed to several more foods, which helped even more. Then a couple years ago, after my PA diagnosis, I started the autoimmune protocol diet and it made a huge difference. I learned that I am sensitive to almost everything that they suggest eliminating -- nuts, seeds, nightshades, soy, you name it. My digestive system is so much better, but I am unfortunately still not really able to reintroduce all the things, I think because of the pandemic stress, but I would definitely recommend AIP to anyone struggling with autoimmune issues. I was baffled for years, as I knew something I was eating was causing me problems but no idea what. Turns out it was a lot of things.

Wishing you well.