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Gigi98 profile image
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Hi, I am a 20 year old nursing student. I am really looking for a bit of support in my diagnosis of PA. I've been receiving B12 injections for about a year now, I'm on 3 monthly injections, next appointment the 10th october.

I'm really just wanting to hear thoughts and opinions, for the past month or so I've been symptomatic again, the tiredness, the tinatus, insomnia, depression, swelling of the tongue etc. I was diagnosed with stress related IBS around 2 years ago but part of me thinks there might be more to it than that? I have a previous inflammatory condition of the eye which was treated with immunosuppressants which I am thankfully not on anymore. Currently I have been having strong abdominal pains as well as frequent UTIs/cystitis and I just get to the point of being exhausted.

As well as all of this I find it hard to focus, and feel lightheaded most of the time, feeling like I'm away to faint. I never have but it really, really is getting to the point of affecting my life.

Along with all of this I am wondering if anyone else has tried to get the doctors to allow them to self inject and their experiences? I already know how to draw up and administer injections and it would probably mean I receive injections on time if I were in control of doing it so I can do it at a time which suits me.

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clivealive profile image
clivealiveForum Support

Hi Gigi98 with the neurological symptoms you describe you are "entitled" to have B12 injections every eight weeks according to the N.I.C.E guidelines below. Click on the link, then on "Scenario: Management" and scroll down to "Treatment for B12 deficiency"

google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j...

Probably your first step is to get your doctor to "allow" you injections at eight weeks instead of twelve and maybe even re-start you on loading doses until there is no further improvement per the above.

Many P.A. /B12 deficient patients suffer at the hands of their "one size fits all" doctors and resort to self injecting if they cannot persuade their G.Ps to increase the frequency and buy their supplies mainly from Germany.

There is no danger of "overdosing" with B12 as any excess is excreted via your urine.

I am not a medically trained person but I've had Pernicious Anaemia (a form of B12 deficiency) for more than 46 years.

I wish you well

.

Sleepybunny profile image
Sleepybunny

Hi,

I'm assuming you're in UK.

I suggest it may be worth joining PAS (Pernicious Anaemia Society) and talking to them.

pernicious-anaemia-society....

PAS can sometimes intervene on behalf of PAS members trying to get diagnosis/recommended treatment and at very least can pass on useful info.

PAS (Pernicious Anaemia Society)

Based in Wales, UK.

pernicious-anaemia-society....

PAS tel no +44 (0)1656 769717 answerphone

PAS support groups in UK

pernicious-anaemia-society....

There are stories about young adults with PA on Martyn Hooper's blog about PA.

martynhooper.com/

B12 Deficiency Info blog

b12deficiency.info/blog/

If you're UK based then I recommend reading list of UK B12 documents below.

UK B12 documents

BSH Cobalamin and Folate Guidelines

b-s-h.org.uk/guidelines/gui...

Flowchart from BSH Cobalamin and Folate Guidelines

stichtingb12tekort.nl/weten...

BMJ B12 article

bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g5226

BNF

bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/hydrox...

NICE CKS

cks.nice.org.uk/anaemia-b12...

Unhappy with Treatment (UK info)?

Letters to GPs about B12 deficiency

b12deficiency.info/b12-writ...

Lots of useful B12 info in link above.

CAB NHS Complaints

citizensadvice.org.uk/healt...

HDA patient care trust

UK charity that offers free second opinions on medical diagnoses and medical treatment.

hdapatientcaretrust.com/

B12 books I found useful

"What You Need to Know About Pernicious Anaemia and B12 Deficiency" by Martyn Hooper

Martyn Hooper is the chair of PAS (Pernicious Anaemia Society). Book is up to date with UK b12 guidelines.

"Living with Pernicious Anaemia and Vitamin B12 Deficiency" by Martyn Hooper

Has several case studies.

"Could it Be B12?: An Epidemic of Misdiagnoses" by Sally Pacholok and JJ. Stuart (USA authors)

Very comprehensive with lots of case studies.

Some UK library services will have copies of these books.

Neurological Symptoms

You mention tinnitus, which is usually considered to be a neurological symptom. Do you have other current neurological symptoms or did you have other neuro symptoms prior to PA diagnosis eg tingling, pins and needles, tremors, memory problems, balance issues plus any others?

B12 Deficiency Symptoms

pernicious-anaemia-society....

b12deficiency.info/signs-an...

Untreated or under treated B12 deficiency may lead to further deterioration including spinal problems. Is your GP aware of this?

In UK, recommended treatment for people with B12 deficiency WITH neurological symptoms is....

A B12 loading jab every other day for as long as symptoms continue to get better then a B12 jab every 2 months.

How many loading jabs did you have when first diagnosed?

"I'm on 3 monthly injections"

If you're UK based, I suspect you are on standard treatment pattern for B12 deficiency without neuro symptoms....

6 B12 jabs over 2 weeks followed by a jab every 3 months.

UK B12 treatment info can be found in BNF, BSH, NICE CKS links above.

Potential Neurological Consequences of B12 Deficiency

PAS news item

pernicious-anaemia-society....

PAS article about SACD, sub acute combined degeneration of the spinal cord, available to PAS members only.

pernicious-anaemia-society....

Blog post from Martyn Hooper's blog, mentions SACD

martynhooper.com/2010/09/21...

Help for GPs

May be worth referring GP to

1) Section on PAS website for health professionals which has info on UK treatment.

pernicious-anaemia-society....

Health professionals can join PAS for free as associate members.

2) Article in PAS library section "An Update for Medical Professionals: Diagnosis and Treatment", only available to PAS members.

pernicious-anaemia-society.... See Page 1 of articles.

3) I gave my GPs a copy of Martyn Hooper's book "What You Need to Know About Pernicious Anaemia and B12 Deficiency"

It's possible to have more than one cause of B12 deficiency at the same time.

Risk Factors for PA and B12 Deficiency

pernicious-anaemia-society....

b12deficiency.info/what-are...

b12deficiency.info/who-is-a...

Having one auto-immune condition eg PA may increase chances of developing another.

Have you ever been checked for Coeliac disease?

NICE guidelines Coeliac Disease (2015 version) UK document

nice.org.uk/guidance/ng20/c...

H Pylori infection?

patient.info/health/dyspeps...

Access to Medical Records (England)

nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/re...

nhs.uk/chq/pages/1309.aspx?...

I am not medically trained.

I hope you get the help you need. Probably worth talking to PAS before your October appt.

More B12 info in pinned posts on this forum.

fbirder profile image
fbirder

Go see your doctor and tell him to give you 8-weekly injections, as recommended in the BNF.

Pernicious anaemia and other macrocytic anaemias with neurological involvement

By intramuscular injection

Adult

Initially 1 mg once daily on alternate days until no further improvement, then 1 mg every 2 months.

I had no problems persuading my doctor to let me self-inject. First I got the nurse doing the loading doses to show me how to do it myself. Then she watched while I did it myself. Then I saw the doc and suggested it would save my time, the nurse's time and the NHS's money if I did my injections at home. At the same time I persuaded him to increase my jabs to every two weeks.

Your stress-relayed IBS could be caused by the lack of stomach acid caused by your atrophic gastritis (the root cause of PA). This achlorhydria can cause symptoms similar to IBS. I drink lime juice (about 35 ml) with each larger meal to counteract it. Others use apple cider vinegar or betaine.HCl capsules.

Happysmile profile image
Happysmile

Hi, I found every other day injections completely sorted years of stomach/ibs problems. Hope you can get what you need.

shaylynn profile image
shaylynn in reply toHappysmile

Do you remember approx how long you were doing every other day injections before you saw improvement with stomach issues?

Happysmile profile image
Happysmile in reply toshaylynn

I can’t recall exactly but fairly early on. I had a very up and down first 2-3 months both physically and emotionally when I started the injections and then everything calmed down and most symptoms disappeared, including the stomach issues. I also take really good probiotics and prebiotic and try and cut our sugar. I don’t eat gluten. Hope that helps.

Lyynn123 profile image
Lyynn123 in reply toHappysmile

Thank you! I’m into my 6 week of injections. Some things getting better but stomach thing is really upsetting and hard to deal with. I get you on the emotional aspect as well. I’m trying to fight depression but waking up every day to this new life and new me is extremely hard.

Happysmile profile image
Happysmile in reply toLyynn123

Seriously, it took time for everything to settle for me. With hindsight, I was up and down like a yo-yo and then I realised one day that everything was improving. It is so worth it. I’ve tried reducing the frequency of my jabs but it all comes back if I do. Hang on in there and keep an eye on cofactors etc.

Lyynn123 profile image
Lyynn123 in reply toHappysmile

Thank you. I keep trying to remember it’s gonna take a while and not get discouraged. Can I ask you to clarify the cofactors? I keep reading that term on here. Is it just the B vitamins like folate?

Happysmile profile image
Happysmile in reply toLyynn123

I’m not medically trained but from various readings on here and other groups, it seems your folate level needs to be above half way through the range to help the B12 as they work together. Also at the start of injections my iron dropped suddenly, so I was prescribed some for a short while. All good now, as I think it’s just at the start as new cells are being made. I occasionally take a B complex to try and balance the B vitamins, but one of the B’s, the name of which I can’t recall, should only be taken for a short while. I also take magnesium glycinate as it helps with sleep etc but I’m not sure if it’s an actual co factor. Personally, I ensure I have a reasonable amount of potassium from my food, (especially at the start of injections) by eating bananas, broccoli etc and drinking coconut water. Hope that gives you food for thought. I found researching as much as possible and not exerting myself too much, the best way to go. I’ve never looked back, it’s the best thing I’ve ever done for my health.

There are a couple of things which pop out of your question about getting the doctors to allow you to self inject. Firstly as a nursing trainee then that should be a shoe-in, if you can do it to others then doing it to yourself will let you know how it feels when you do. But are you asking how you get the GP to let you inject more frequently that every 3 months, which you return of symptoms tends to suggest, that can be much more problematic as many of them just rely on the licence terms for hydroxocobalamin. There are plenty of us on this forum who have tried that and come up against the stone wall of the licence terms and the need for a neurologists opinion. What we have done is to give ourselves permission and bought the kit and the doses. As you have put in the last sentence you do know how to do it and you would then be able to do it at the time to suit you.

JMN2017 profile image
JMN2017

Hi Gigi98

I'm a retired nurse and can well relate to what you have said. ;) As already said, your GP will stick to his 'guidelines' of 3-monthly injections, in spite of NICE saying 2-monthly if neuro symptoms (re clivealive post above)

My GP was adamant I wasn't deficient, in spite of clear symptoms and bloods suggesting it and had previously told me, re feeling permanently exhausted etc, 'there's nothing more I can do for you', then proceded to reduce thyroxine!!! Great, eh?

I decided it is 'my' body so don't need his permission (B12 is considered safe and not toxic etc) so I began self-injecting, only told the GP once I was feeling so much better (so would be hard to deny B12 deficiency ;) ) He was pleased, but amazed, at the improvement as he'd never seen me so well :)

I did try 6-week injections but soon 'crashed' and am now, after another loading series, doing well again on twice a week!!! 'One-size fits all' approach just does not crack it!!!

Just FYI, I tensed up doing IM so now do subcut, orange 5/8" needle into abdomen and seems good. I don't think there is much, if any, proven benefits S/c vs IM, to be honest but, hopefully, someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Go for it, eh? Don't bother telling your GP then you can get 3-monthly on NHS and interval ones via self-injection ;) You can get advice re what, and from where, to order from this site ;) It's not expensive, I'm pleased to say ;)

motorheed15 profile image
motorheed15

Hi Gigi98 i've just started to self inject when needed my doctor put me on one injection every 12 weeks which was ok for first few weeks then it starts all over again so i asked to get it more regular the answer was no so i decided to order B12 ampulets from Germany and the rest of the things i needed from medisave at a great price now everything is great

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