NAC and Glutathione, and my reaction

[EPguy]

There have been numerous posts of these supplements. It's supposed to have benefits, and NAC is being trialed now for MPNs. NAC is converted to Glut in the body and is thus an indirect way to get Glut. These agents are supposed to be very low risk.

We've not had clarity on the details of these agents, here are a few.

I visited an integrative med Dr and asked about it based on info I know on these. Glut comes in two common types lately, L-Glutathione and liposomal glutathione. L-Glut does not mean liposomal in spite of the L.

As I now understand in simple terms, , L- it means "reduced". Reduced is the type that is active in the body. Liposomal is always the reduced type, but is contained in a fat (lipo as in suction) protector to get it thru the digestion and into the blood stream. So Lipo L-Glut is the max active type. Note the mRNA vaxes also use liposomes to get it in.

With that there are three ways to take it, swallow, under tongue (sub-lingual) and IV Sublingual can be liquid or pill.

According to the Dr as I can recall, IV gives the biggest Glut level if not prolonged, sublingual gives the longest at a high level, a swallowed pill give lower levels and NAC the lowest Glut levels.

One possible confounding issue is NAC may be active in ways beyond just gluta conversion.

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Question is whether higher is better. For me I can say no. I've periodically taken NAC including thru most my Bes journey. At least it did no harm. But it seemed possibly troublesome after my vax/IFN mess so I stopped. This week the Dr recommended a sublingual Glut spray, the strong formula. I figured it's a good way to find clearly whether glut/NAC does anything.

It does/did, and not for my good. I had adverse reaction. Strangest was a short term but strong tingling in my left hand, a familiar neuro problem but new that day and more of it. BP crashed to 85/58. I may still be having effects from it. Glad I didn't take up the idea for the IV, probably would send me to ER.

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Conclusion is:

- subligual is a powerful way to take meds/supps.

-Glut is not zero risk, even as the info points that way.

-My little body is getting trashed and is on a knife edge of reactions.

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My advice if one wants Glut is take it slow, NAC being the most conservative start. Possibly those with autoimmune issues (me) need extra caution.

So far only Curcumin seems possibly helpful and not troublesome for me.

[Ovidess]

EPguy, Glad you can tolerate curcumin. Is it hard on some stomachs? I've been taking NAC and have no idea if it is doing anything to help. No one to ask! I've been off Besremi for a month now, due to liver enzymes being high and to Medicare and the clinic sparring over the coverage. My hematocrit and platelets are staying nicely stable in a normal and near normal range, but the ALT and AST went up two tests in a row. I have a liver detox formula from my acupuncturist and am trying not to stress the liver in any way.

You must be fatigued from all the experimentation to get things back to "normal."

[EPguy in reply to Ovidess]

How high were your liver counts? There is allowance for 3-5X normal in the label. But your Dr is the judge.

My CBC counts held for 3 months off Bes. So there is usually some space to work with.

I'm ok with the curcumin on stomach. But that's one area I usually have no troubles. There is a trial going now for NAC and MPN. We'll get some info maybe next year.

I do tend toward experimenting, I like discovery. My Dr noted "insurance doesn't pay for experiments" But for now I just want to discover feeling ok.

[Ovidess in reply to EPguy]

ALT/SGPT 124 U/L safe range 0-41)

AST/SGOT 101 U/L (range 0-40)

[EPguy in reply to Ovidess]

Makes sense your you and your Dr are holding off the Bes for a while. Maybe there is a dose that will balance all.

[monarch5000 in reply to Ovidess]

Besremi seems to cause higher rises in liver enzymes than Pegasys interferon: youtu.be/DzRroOp7JTE(Not working as expected?)

[EPguy in reply to monarch5000]

He seems to note the high dose used for Bes, implying the dose conversions are not correct. I agree common Bes dosing defaults too high. I believe my possibly permanent disability is partly from this, and I was on only 140.

Strangely the mfr is trialing even more aggressive dosing.

[Loooonglife]

Interesting questions that are being raised. I have a few more. Assuming that Glut = glutathione, is there any evidence that glutathione supplementation actually raises cellular glutathione? I was under the impression that GSH (the abbreviation for Glutathione in the scientific literature) is not orally bioavailable, i.e. never makes it into the blood stream and tissues. Low dose NAC does not either. At least I am not aware of any reports in the literature. Higher doses of NAC +GLY do, as all of the reports Sekhar et al. coauthored show. The good news about this regimen is that it restores GSH levels to that of younger individuals without exceeding them. In addition, NAC appears to prevent clotting according to a paper coauthored by A. Fleischman, which indicates benefit in a mouse model of PV. Taking it slow is always a good idea, both with increasing the dose of interferon and any supplement. As a biochemist/scientist who has worked in drug discovery for >20 years, and more recently in aging research, I do feel comfortable with this sort of reasoning. At the same time I acknowledge that there are no large long term, placebo controlled clinical trials that provide reassurance, and this is the reason why it is not part of physians’ repertoire of treatments. We just don’t know if there are any significant benefit or adverse effects, and in particular in the context of MPN patients. Not sure if this is helpful.

[EPguy in reply to Loooonglife]

Correct on that long word. GSH is the reduced form that's active. GSSG is the oxidized non-active form. The issue is getting the GSH into the system. That's the subject discussed above. The high active forms do get well into the system, I can tell you from my actual experience it's for real.

There is a recent thread discussing NAC+GLY. That is supposed to be more active than just NAC, I missed that in the top post here. But if one wants lots of activity, the sublingual lipo Gluta version will kick b*tt.

The ongoing Fleischman study will be our 1st data for human MPN effects. Unfortunately it's using one of the less active forms of the metabolite.

[Loooonglife]

Interesting. Can you recommend a brand for the sublingual lipo version of GSH?

[EPguy in reply to Loooonglife]

This is the one I tried recommended by the Dr:

Quicksilver Scientific Liposomal Glutathione

quicksilverscientific.com/a...

I suggest testing a very low dose before following the directions. Also it tastes really bad, apparently pure gluta, or the lipo part, is like that. I've still some aftertaste two days later.

[ainslie]

one eco doc I was seeing reckoned it was better to take Glutathione as opposed to NAC ,as in people my age 65 it’s not so easy to convert the NAC, just her view , no idea if it’s correct but I currently take Glutathione.

[hunter5582]

Sorry to hear about another adverse reaction. It is a core truth that anything that is biologically active enough to help you can also hurt you and interact with things.

I cam continuing to use L-Glutathione in a capsule form. My Integrative Medicine doc recommended the formulation from Ortho Molecular Products. Here is their own summary of this formulation.

Glutathione has been termed “the master antioxidant” because of its ability to quench free radicals and protect cells from damage. It has long been thought that humans were unable to utilize preformed glutathione, but recent research proves otherwise. Setria®, a unique tri-peptide form of glutathione, has a molecular structure that effectively increases glutathione blood levels when taken orally. It is the only supplemental glutathione backed by a recently published human clinical trial that shows significant uptake of this critical nutrient. orthomolecularproducts.com/...

Take that with a grain of salt given the source is the manufacturer; however, my doc did the lab to measure my serum level of L-Glut and I am on the high side. I cannot state that it is clearly helping, but it does not seem to do any harm.

It sounds like you may have found the same thing I did, curcumin can help. However, it is essential to use a biologically active form of curmin for it to do any good. Glad to hear you seem to tolerate it. Some people can have GI issues with curcumin. Thankfully, that has not been an issue for me.

Wishing you all the best finding things that work.

[EPguy in reply to hunter5582]

I also use the curcuwin formula you recommended. The active agent is provided by an India company. I found their patent which indicates it's a specific version of a liposomal med.

The gluta formula you have seems to be the reduced type "L-" but not liposomal. So it's less likely to OD on it as I did.

[EPguy in reply to hunter5582]

I'm hoping to get a GSH test, I think you've done so, correct? Has insurance covered it?

[hunter5582 in reply to EPguy]

Yes I have had it. No problem with insurance coverage on my plan,

Out of pocket cost if needed = $131 - $189 per this source findlabtest.com/lab-test/ge... . Always shop it around if paying out of pocket.

[EPguy in reply to hunter5582]

It will be by Quest, not my usual place. I have good ins so hope it will be. I'm curious on my GSH since this one dose of it made such a bang.

[hunter5582 in reply to EPguy]

I have done Quest, Labcorp, Sunrise, etc. etc. for various labs. Most recent GSH was by Sunrise. No difference I could tell

[Sahrena_77]

I have been seeking a naturopath for Glutathione iv and I have Polycythemia. My levels dropped dramatically.

My internist couldn't make sense of it.

Thank you for sharing.

[Anag]

thanks for touching on this subject. I love NAC. It got me through Covid quickly and helped me many other times where I wasn’t feeling very well. A friend was severely hung over quite a few times in the NAC also got rid of most of the hangover quickly.

I don’t believe that it’s something that one should take the whole time. This is a very powerful supplement that triggers glutathione, and MSM production and is not only good for getting rid of viruses, bacteria, etc. but also heavy metals like mercury. The amount that each person should take is different depending on the persons burden, and their ability to deal with toxins. Starting with high dozed liposomal glutathione is not really the way to go. I have a doctor that tests everything that I take with muscle testing and she is able to.Immediately find out how my body reacts to it and if it’s good for me or not. I have all my medications and supplements tested. she even checked my Besremi and found that it is good for my body. The Anagrelide tested ok only for one pill a day. The 4 tested not good and I’ve had heart problems because of it

NAC or glutathione should be taken slowly at the beginning, then increased and one should watch for physical reactions. For example., if the goal is getting rid of bacteria’s, Lyme, metals, and the dosage is too high, and too much of these mycotoxins leave the body at the same time, causing the body to be burdened and it feels terrible. If we feel this we should stop for a few days, and then restart with a lighter dosage. this this is called a Herxheimer reaction. This happens when too many chemicals are leaving the body all at once. At this point, it would be important to give activated charcoal to mop these up and lead them out of the body. it is also important that when we are helping our Detox system, to make sure that our poop is leaving us every single day. If not, the toxins will be reabsorbed in the gut and recirculated to the liver. This also causes burden on the body, and one feels awful

supplements need to be carefully monitored. when I change a supplement, I only start on a low dosage, and slowly increase. I’ve never taken NAC for longer than three months at a time. Ie. When I do stinging nettle tea for pH balance in my body, I usually drink one cup every day for a month and then stop for a week or two. it’s the same principal. The body should also not get used to some supplement.

I just thought about coenzyme Q 10, which many of us take for energy production. When we have a viral or bacterial and we are feeling weak, often the body slows down its cells on purpose, to conserve energy and we feel weak and have to stay in bed (ie flu). At that time, our cells are creating other substances that are busy fighting off the culprit. We should not be adding something like coenzyme Q 10 at such a time because it won’t be working anyway, and it might just as well be burdening the body even more. We restart after we are feeling stronger. But other supplements, such as vitamin C and L-glutathione are good to take at that time as are NAC.

would love to hear any further discussion on this topic! I’m always looking for new information!

Thanks

Anag

[EPguy in reply to Anag]

I'm feeling that the one-time dose of the high potent gluta lat week has made lingering troubles.

I was tested last Feb for all the suspect toxic metals, and many other things, all negative.

[Anag in reply to EPguy]

Hi EPguy,

how were you tested for metals? Blood tests do not usually show them unless you do chelation to loosen them up and then check in Urin and blood. there are tests that easily show metals, mineral, vitamin etc that are in the cells themselves. Also, Bioresonance practitioners, the Quint system and Muscle testing are all fast easy and painless.

Another point: the acceptable normal range has been consistently raised over the decades to accommodate the rising amounts in our bodies. There are metals everywhere in our food, air, water. Big mouth, fish like tuna and mackerel are full of them. Especially mercury. The amount of mercury is raised exponentially when the fish is bigger. For example, for a tuna to gain 1 pound of weight it must eat 35 pounds of smaller fish. The mercury remains in the body of the tuna. Eating a delicious bluefin tuna steak is a shot of poison. I stopped eating that 6 years ago

another huge culprit for raised mercury levels, our amalgam or silver fillings. I had 35 of them! I had my daughter at 39 and her brain and body were filled with mercury. She was on the spectrum, and since we started cleaning her body of all toxins, including metals, she was tested and is no longer on the spectrum. She is 19 and has been suffering with other health problems all her life: she’s on her way to better health. 😀 she’ll be starting her studies in October!

[EPguy in reply to Anag]

I got these tests. All in range. A sample of results:

Component Value Ref Range & Units Status

Cadmium, Blood <1.0 <=5.0 ug/L Final

Mercury, Blood <2.5 <=10.0 ug/L Final

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I would be thrilled to find what is making me miserable.

Metals

[Anag in reply to EPguy]

Hi EPguy, I think I mentioned before that unless it’s a new poisoning, the metals don’t hang out in the blood. Did you do chelation and then blood was measured? Usually they measure more than once, at time intervals. Sorry, urine is measure.

Getting rid of metals can also make you feel miserable. Also, a sluggish liver, slow digestion, food intolerances, other allergies, poor sleep, water that contains toxins, pollution.

🙂

[EPguy in reply to Anag]

I had no chelation. Wouldn't it be most accurate to get a value before chelation? A negative would indicate no ongoing poisoning. If positive then get a test after chelation. I don't know much about this.

You note urine, is that more accurate than blood?

I see in this report one reason chelation might make droopy feelings:

"Chelating drugs can bind to and remove some metals your body needs, like calcium, copper, and zinc. This can lead to a deficiency in these important substances. Some people who’ve had chelation therapy also have low calcium levels in the blood and kidney damage."

webmd.com/balance/guide/wha...

[Anag in reply to EPguy]

it is really important to have an experienced doctor accompany this.

Mercury especially is concentrated in tissues, organs, brain and even bones. Not much is to be seen in the blood. It can be tested with the methods I mentioned before. Also, hair samples may be helpful. Once a chelation is done, the metals will be filtered through liver and kidneys and should be caught by a binder such as activated charcoal so that it may be passed through the stool and will also be passed out through the urine. I did a light chelation using DMSA for a few months (once a week) and slowly moved the mercury out of my body. I still have quite a ways to go. My daughter has much more than I do. She’s doing the light chelation now. It’s important to take the important minerals and metals you mentioned! Very good point

We’re also doing chelation through ionic foot baths to get rid of aluminium.

A proper metal chelation for my daughter and me will take up to 2 years when done slowly to avoid taxing the body too much.

Once again, this should be accompanied by an experienced doctor, who really knows what they are doing. 🙂

[EPguy in reply to Anag]

I am seeing an integrative med Dr. Heavy metal testing has not come up so far. My GP ordered the tests I had.

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It is indeed complicated at least for mercury. It seems chelation is used for metallic mercury:

"Chelating agents (including DMSA) ... can be used for acute inorganic mercury" but for the organic form "Currently, no chelation agents have been approved for methylmercury or ethylmercury by the U.S. FDA."

"Mercury in urine is used to test for exposure to metallic mercury vapor and to inorganic forms of mercury."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

In a different report:

"Mercury in urine is used to test for exposure to metallic mercury vapor and to inorganic forms of mercury." while "Urine is not useful for determining whether exposure has occurred to methylmercury."

"Measurement of mercury in whole blood or scalp hair is used to monitor exposure to methylmercury."

"Hair, which is considered useful only for exposures to methylmercury, can be used to show exposures that occurred many months ago, or even more than a year ago"

atsdr.cdc.gov/sites/toxzine...

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These two sample reports indicate that:

- For metallic mercury urine is best.

-Chelation is approved only for metallic mercury

-Blood or hair is for organic mercury

- Distant exposures can be measured only for organic mercury and only via hair.

It seems that in order to cover the two main forms of mercury more than one method is required. And further method selections are indicted to catch short or long term exposures.

So my test would have found recent exposure via fish but not the metallic type mercury my high school chem teacher had us stick our fingers into.

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No doubt there is more to it than this, and there may be fresher data, but it does show that getting the whole picture is indeed more complex than I thought about.

[Anag in reply to EPguy]

wow you’ve don’t a lot of research and this is amazing information! The methods I’ve mentioned before are simple and fast. Firstly, find out if there’s mercury toxicity and chances are, most of us have too much mercury i. Our bodies. The acceptable toxic levels of heavy metals are constantly being adjusted upwards. Therefore, if the maximum 30 years ago was 3, the maximum now is 10 or 15. That is that 30 years ago 10 would have been considered toxicity and today not. This information is from the head of the dept of Limniology, university of Innsbruck, that study all lakes in Austria, southern Germany and Switzerland. I spent a day on a research boat with him looking at samples from the lake. Since mercury is everywhere in the world now, especially in the fish, if we eat the fish in the oceans, we have mercury! I wrote more details above. This is a very an important point. Whether it’s methyl mercury or organic mercury both are bad and should be removed. Mercury toxicity is happening on two levels. We get it through food or other environmental sources or we have had it planted in our mouths in our teeth. I had 35 amalgams with dental work in 7 different countries, in 20 different cities spanning from San Francisco through Europe to Japan! Who can ever know what was in those fillings and how much damage the different metals were causing? after careful removal, over 2 years, I went through a tough time mentally and physically, but I made it through. 😁

For Hg removal, most people can take chlorella that has been reduced to nano particles in a liquid, over a long period of time and this is absolutely harmless and safely and gently removes mercury from the body. Unfortunately, I cannot take chlorella because I am one of those 15% of people who have an intolerance to chlorella. 😑 this is why I do DMSA. I stopped the DMSA since starting Besremi last October. No doctor nor the producers of Besremi can tell me if this wipes out the Besremi. I just had a scare last week, while detoxing my liver and my thrombocytes exploded although the Besremi was working well. I was in the hospital Sunday after church. It was my first attemp to do liver detox in a long time. In order to prove this, we would have to redo the situation and see if the thrombocytes go up again. I remember feeling sluggish after Besremi in the first week. After doing a detox 3 days later, I was full of energy and no symptoms of anything. I would assume that it changes the function of Besremi. In the meantime no experiments, till further notice. This situation has been reported to the Besremi producers by me directly.

there is no way that I personally will wait for the FDA to approve methods that have been tested by doctors for decades and centuries and work well in order to help my body, when there are safe ways to already do so. 😉

One fabulous example: All southern European countries have been cooking and eating dandelion leaves and other wild weeds for thousands of years in order to keep their body healthy. Cooked Weed salad and weed strudel with sautéed onions and feta cheese! 😋😋😋 I as a greek growing up with this weeds. My mom would stop the car on the side of the highway and jump over the barrier with her bags and knife and harvest out of the farmers fields. Within a short time, there were Italian ladies and Portuguese doing the same! 😂 it was a spectacle all of them mooning the passers by.

I still eat them in Austria where I live, but less because of the high vitamin K content that increases my thrombocytes. The Austrians and Germans are starting to do so. 🙂 Our western world frowns upon these weeds and tries to poison them when they grow on their lawns instead of harvesting them. Yes they are bitter and bitter is better. 😂

Hope you’re feeling better. Perhaps you got a bit of a chuckle out of my mama story. 🙂

Be well. Have a good week. Anag

[BlastedKnees]

Good information and thanks for relaying the info you learned from the integrated medicine doc.

For my part, NAC was helpful in greatly reducing joint aches and pains, and in particular it completely stopped the acute flareups I was having where I'd wake up in the morning with sharp pain in my knees / kneecaps, achilles, elbows, etc. at random intervals but typically once per week. NAC stopped that dead. I decided to try switching to L-glutathione pills to see if that produced a similar benefit, but within a week I woke up with a knee flareup.

There's another thing about NAC that I also noticed as an ancillary benefit. I didn't realize this until I stopped taking NAC, but it had a positive impact on my endurance when strength training. I had noticed that a few months ago exercise and maximum reps until failure had started to increase, but couldn't figure out exactly why. Then suddenly I "lost" a few reps off my max within a week timeframe. I remembered reading about NAC and some studies that showed benefits for athletic endurance. When I restarted NAC again I regained those lost reps.

My first thought was it is psychosomatic, but I track all my workouts in detail, and it was clear that my endurance increase started the week after I began taking NAC, and decreased after stopping NAC. Since I track per rep and do exercises to failure, on average the gain has been about 10% more reps until failure while on NAC.

The questions I still have are around dosing, duration, and effects of long-term use. Generally there's not a lot of info on that score, aside from the one study I mentioned in another post related to a potential link to increased risk of osteoarthritis (but upon further analysis of the study I don't believe it can be said that NAC was the cause of the increased risk - correlation but not causation).