Heart rate monitors used to test over stimulated environments.

Was chatting to a BI friend and campaigner in Canada yesterday. She said a very interesting thing. When she got vision tested the optometrist used a heart rate monitor to test the effects of various lenses. When the correct lens is used the heart rate returns to normal levels.

Been thinking about this and see that this is an easy way of generally testing if an environment is over stimulating eg through vision and sound in general.

Many people say that lights, computers and noises affect them and make them fatigued and get anxious etc.

Many people use off the shelf devises for testing the heart rate when exercising etc. Why not use them in daily life to see if the lighting in the house or office etc causes an increase in heart rate.

I'm currently studying for a masters in mindfulness based approaches in uni with an aim of creating a mindful cognitive rehab program. As part of this, the neuropsychology aspect, it's clear that many reactions people have through sensory stimulation has an automatic effect on the body. This is precognitive through the neuroendocrine system. This basically means that any sensory stimulation causes a reaction in the body, panic attack or feelings of anxiety or depression and fatigue before any thought is initiated.

If you use the heart rate monitor in places that cause you sensory problems that cause anxiety or fatigue etc it should show a change and show a link between the stimulation and the effects.

This could help you avoid these places of over stimulation and reduce the anxiety and fatigue etc. It may help with having a conversation with a boss in getting the working environment altered. It could help manage screen time, stop at a certain point rather than getting burnt out.

There is another factor in this, you can show that it is sensory overload causing you anxiety and fatigue and depression symptoms and not mental health issues ie cognitive issues. These are automatic reactions and not thought generated responses. Food for thought.

[Shreds]

An interesting train of thought. Keep us in the loop, be interested to hear more.

[Hidden in reply to Shreds]

Will do. Need people to try it out, I'm old school and don't have these running heart rate devices. Also I hardly get issues like these anymore have recovered pretty well. If anyone has got them may be just wear them for a few weeks and have a look at the heart rate when you are in shops or on screens and begin to feel fatigued and stressed. Just see what happens. My friend in Canada may be able to get some funding for a study. Brain injury is a global issue.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Have posted this request in Canada and the States too. Let's see what happens!

[Painting-girl]

Really interesting, and I think would explain why even a three minute 'breathing space' meditation (mindfulness practice) seems to help manage my activity and fatigue levels during the day. And why it can stop the symptoms of cognitive overload / fatigue.

The reverse of the effect you describe is that (by using a monitor) I know that my blood pressure reliably reduces when I do a Headspace meditation - which makes me think it has value just on that purely pragmatic basis (apologies to those that don't get on with the meditation / mindfulness thing - but it works for me).

I wear a cheap Huawei smart watch - among the other stuff ( love counting steps) it puts a graph of my day's heart rate onto my phone - I'll try and remember to note when I'm in overload ( or getting fatigued) and see if it correlates with spikes in my heart rate?

There could be a paper on this!

[Hidden in reply to Painting-girl]

The three minute breathing space was a mindful adaptation developed at the CRMP where I'm currently doing a masters in mindfulness based approaches. Thanks for trying this out with your app/device. These devices, the sporting heart rate monitors could be used as an early warning mechanism and like you do, use something like the 3 minute breathing space.A friend in the States says there are portable neuro feedback devices there, in medical places. I mentioned that a tech nerd would probably be able to develop an app based on this or parts of it for general use on a smart phone.

[Hidden in reply to Painting-girl]

Here's a list of guided mindfulness techniques including the 3 minute breathing space if anyone wants to try. bangor.ac.uk/mindfulness/au...

[Painting-girl in reply to Hidden]

Thanks, cool. Free stuff in the Headspace app too.

[Pairofboots]

It would be interesting to hear of your findings, it might be a route to reducing the raft of medication that keep me stable. I often have to explain the difference between a MH issue and that of a ABI issue to general medics.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

Yep. Just like I mentioned to Painting girl, the general sports heart monitor could help as an early warning to symptoms that may cause a bit of a crash. A friend in the US say they use neuro feedback devices there, but only in a medical setting at the moment. I'm sure some kind of an app could be developed based on parts of this for general use.

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

I am stable at the moment, so I doubt that I would get the same feedback from such a device. Therefore the conclusion of your research would be of interest. I don't mind being a guinea pig, but there needs to be proof of a cognitive causal effect, if it was to be used in reducing medication.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

This is more geared up for the sensory aspect. The triggers. This monitoring comes from visual testing. The effects of stress and anxiety is automatic with visual processing issues, it is precognitive. The optometrists using this is guaging the effect of lenses. The correct lens will almost instantly reduce the visual issue and reduce the heart rate.Before my visual issues got treated with specific lenses I had to stay in the dark most of the time. If I got exposed to light I instantly got stressed with an increased heart rate and other issues. On each occasion when I got my new glasses stress, anxiety, panic responses and fatigue lifted by a large percentage instantly each time. If it works for vision there is no reason why it cannot be used for other sensory triggers like sound etc.

Regarding the medication, this is a different question. I've been anti pharma for myself because I did not have cognitive depression, no thought loops. This is a difficult area to discuss because many people do get cognitive depression with a BI and medication is required. However there are other tried and tested methods. Mindfulness based cognitive therapy works for depression (47% effective), scientific trials prove this and is now a course of treatment for many people. However again this has never been officially trialled for people with brain injury in a scientific study.

I am currently doing a masters in this area and I believe there is plenty of scope with mindfulness and BI rehab. This has never really been seriously looked at before. The current methods use mindfulness protocols for treating stress, pain and depression. Some people with BI get good positive effects from this but the vast majority do not or just find certain elements beneficial. This is my area of research and I think mindfulness based rehab programs can be developed with a new approach that takes brain injury into account.

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

I still think that there maybe visual cognitive elements that currently required medication.

Mindfulness has been pushed on many ailments. My own experience is an adverse reaction to this type of therapy, if anything increasing symptoms, or creating greater mental distress.

Mindfulness is something I have had a lot of experience with in clinical practice.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

Was your mindfulness before or after BI, if both what was the difference.

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

I used mindfulness with patients on a forensic MH ward, some responded well, some did not, I also used DBT with some patients to increase their copy strategies. One glove doesn't fit all.

Post BI I was encouraged to try mindfulness to reduce my anxiety and relax my thoughts. Unfortunately in my case it seriously pd me off.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

'Post BI', this seems to be a familiar story. There is a journal paper called Mindfulness, the Warp and Weft by Rebecca Craine. She is one of the founders of clinical mindfulness based programs. In it she slates mindfulness providers for not doing the science, not taking the participants into account and basically dishing out mindfulness practices as some kind of wonder therapy. It is supposed to meet guidelines and many providers and people 'prescribing' the therapy don't know what they are doing. The term McMindfulness is used to describe these practices. There is no scientific study that shows mindfulness works on people with BI, they show the opposite, that the current methods mostly don't work because they are not designed with BI in mind. This is my research area. I have a good idea why they don't work for people with BI and I am in the process of proving it and putting into place a suitable model to get tested scientifically.

I can understand very well how you are 'pd' off.

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

Well your findings will still be of interest.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

Hi have just read up on a few things you mention. The visual cognitive elements are at the level of perception and it is how your cognition deals with the distorted visual information from the visual processing mechanisms. The stress/anxiety generated by the visual system itself is precognitive, it is in the primal, animal part of the brain and elicited via the neuroendocrine system. This basically gives the bad feeling. The stress created at the cognitive level / perception is a secondary reaction to the distorted visual effect and also to the bad feeling generated by the neuroendocrine system. It's a double hit. The cognitive reaction to these is to generate thought patterns which are negative creating emotional stress. This is all a cascading effect. This is depression when past reactions are elicited and anxiety when new worries are elicited. These in themselves create further reactions and spiral out of control resulting in mental breakdown in extreme cases.

It depends on the person how to deal with this. Anti depressants and anti psychotics are an initial answer but should be short term to begin with. If it is a chronic condition then long term medication should be considered.

If between the episodes, I repeat BETWEEN the episodes, may be after stabilisation through medication, then a course of self control can be taught and learned to recognise the sequence of events described above. This is where the mindfulness based cognitive therapy comes in. This is basically CBT with a mindful attitudinal component. This currently only deals with the depression elements, the cognitive side. The visual is a neuropsychological element. If the initial 'bad feeling' can be recognised the cascading effect can be stopped there and then in it's tracks. The 3 minute breathing space mentioned by Painting Girl is a perfect mechanism to stop yourself when this bad feeling comes on. It is a practiced and rehearsed mechanism and when used enough is an automatic response and halts the depressive cognitive cycle and allows you to take evasive action.

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

It is interesting how you mention the hypothalamus as the originator. This makes perfect sense in driving a cascade response.

The hypothalamus has been found to have a greater part in processing perception, than the cortex. It has over ten times the neural networks than the cortex.

This is likely to be involved in hypervigilance, sensory distortion, and misinterpretation of otherwise inocuous situations.

This had been a recurrent theme in my early days of recovery.

It was also an area I often taught about when I was working in relation of communication with a violent patient. The hypothalamus influences much of the brain functions, but it is pretty thick at communicating.

This is why in deescalation it is important to angage the cortex, by forcing it to think, asking questions, even abstract to the presenting situation.

I would have thought that DBT would be a more effective therapy than CBT as it is more patient lead.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

This images from eyes have not even been converged here so the sensory information is very basic. This is what drives the panic response, increased heart rate and the pull of blood from the gastric system. The gastric migraine as my GP calls it. It's all pretty interesting stuff.

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

Hypothalamus primative brain designed for survival, freeze, flight, fight, anger being a primative emotional response to a perseved threat. May begin with what we would consider a reasonable response to an annoyance, but when it tips over to anger the cortex starts to shut down, it is what is referred to as 'the red mist', when people genuinely cannot recall their actions, however horrendous they may have been. There maybe glimces of snapshots, but a cohesive memory doesn't exist.

The hypothalamus does not retain memory, but is important in the process of memory formation as it acts similar to that of a telephone exchange, directing memories to short term and long term memory, even helping to delete memory that is too difficult for the cortex to process. But like with communication, it isn't very good at deletion, hence flashback memory, such as in PTSD.

Yes the hypothalamus is responsible for the autonomic changes in the physiology of the body, surge of adrenaline to release energy quickly, it is also responsible for dumping syndrome, where the body evacutes excess weight by any means, the more unpleasant aspects of the primative response.

Dumping syndrome also occurs following barriatric surgery, but this has nothing to do with the hypothalamus.

[New_beginning in reply to Pairofboots]

From what i studied at uni going back 6yrs ago the Hypothalamus is still much research to do and that was 15yrs prior to studying this area and the full extent of the brain is yet to be uncovered in full. In the UK, research so poor, again going back 6yrs ago, discovered UK atleast 25yrs plus behind on all areas relating to all Health, Social and Community when i came aware researching i found it absolute disgusting Government invested very little in all areas and past 15yrs still poor funding, unless private, sponsors.

I hope to see much more from your research, its interesting and had great meaning

[Pairofboots in reply to New_beginning]

It is pinkvision that is doing the research. I am just relating what I learnt between 2001-2009, plus what I have come across in relation to my own BI. There is much more research than you realise. It is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack, but I had some very good teachers. Plus I studied some of the ancient philosophy in relation to violence, and control of emotions, mainly in Japanese Samurai philosophy. It served me well in my own teaching of martial arts and within my role as a violence reduction specialist within the NHS.

PS. I must remember to check my spelling more often, as reading back, I think my fingers are doing the thinking. That nicely brings me to my favourite question. How many brains does the human body have?

[New_beginning in reply to Pairofboots]

Yes its quite interesting mixing when i use to volunteer with young offenders, it was actually martial arts with added boxing involved to support getting kid (s) off street. This had some good outcomes due to the coping mechanisms of discipline implemented and meeting new peers

[Hidden in reply to New_beginning]

Here's a weird one, I'm looking into this from the Buddhist psychology model which is 2500 years old, the 'new' brain models that Western neuroscience 'discovers' is already written about. The research centre where I am tend to focus on the Buddhist model and relate new info to that. In the Buddhist model there is no brain as such it is 6 conscious sense spheres.

[New_beginning in reply to Hidden]

Fasinating,

[Pairofboots in reply to New_beginning]

Yes teaching kids and youths the discipline of control, often pushing them to near the point of frustration.

It was always interesting the different types that joined classes, I would thinking back were 'the hard nut', 'the pushed by parent', 'the timid', 'the sporty good at everything'. If you project that to me, I wouldn't say where I fit in.

The hard nut, never lasted much more than a couple of gradings. They lacked discipline, mind set of wanting to hurt others, but reluctant to be hurt. They often held the learning of being humble.

The pushed by parent, and the timid can be similar. Lack confidence, want to please, dismissive of own abilities, but if nurtured grow in confidence, and accept discipline. Can achieve much.

The sporty good at everything, easily disillusioned, but accepting of discipline, needs careful guidance as they are not used to failure, but can excel.

All need to be trained slightly differently to reach their individual potential, and for some to exceed their potential.

The hard nut, needs careful nurturing if they are to remain, this is more working with the mind set.

It is the sensei that fail the student if they fail, as the student has much to teach.

I took this philosophy forward when teaching violence reduction to adults in the NHS. Lets face it, no one enters the NHS to fight, and many have avoided violence well into adulthood.

Whether teaching children and adults it is important to instill in them that they it is impossible to be wrong, there is just different ways. Wrong creates a mental block that is difficult to move on from, where as different gives a path to adapt and improve.

This is the way if growing the flower, rather than plucking it to place it in a vase where it will wither and die.

Muscle memory is often used as a term to describe the speed of reaction, this is a bit of a misnomer, it is basically teaching the brain to respond without calculation, or question. It is not a subconscious action, as true subconscious is a construct. There is only conscious or unconscious.

This brings me back to my earlier question of how many brains does the human have? Because the body can remain conscious without being aware of the conscious. This although a simple concept, as complicated to explain.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

This is the split brain. We have 2 hemispheres, two consciousnesses that integrate into one. With brain injury if one hemisphere is damaged we experience the world through the other. Then there is mixed hemisphere damage where the world is seen through bits of each. In Buddhist psychology this is seen as 2 types of attention, wide attention is right hemisphere, beauty, love, compassion, connection to the universe. The left side is details, words, numbers and incessant thinking, the inner voice. The difference between love and anger is the focus of attention on the right or left hemisphere. It really is that simple. Controlling attention is the difficult bit. You can then add intentions and attitudes to the focus of attention, things like disappline and self control. Through repetition these become hard wired, embodied traits. Bad preexisting traits can be hijacked and directed along another path, if repeated this also becomes hardwired.

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

You have fallen in to the brain trap, of pure thinking, this is different from global thinking. There are at least 21 brain's throughout the body that act with, and independently from the brain in the head. If you think of the body as departments, the head is the chairman and vice chairman, they instruct the department's, but like any good leader, after it has given its instructions, it allows the manager's to work out how best to interpret the instructions.

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

Who is the managing director and CEO that steers the company?

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

Chairman = cortex, vice chairman = hypothalamus or MD and CEO respectively 😉

[Hidden in reply to Pairofboots]

Human and reptile, what where does the chimp fit in?

[Pairofboots in reply to Hidden]

98% human

[Painting-girl]

I do love an experiment...

The other thing that might work to adapt using these watches - is that I can set 'a workout' time period during which a warning goes off when my heart rate goes above a certain number - at which point it helpfully gives me a continuous readout on a display on my watch.

(This is how I workout on the Leddy concussion graded exercise - when you exercise to a max heart rate - without triggering post concussion symptoms.....)

My bet is that for me personally I go into overload a bit under an hour on cognitive activities, and at about ten - fifteen minutes when playing music for example. (Will have to wait for a few months to do busy environments I guess.....) The length of time tolerance is going to vary at different times of the day?

Will be interesting to test this out. Different people are going to have different response times to different activities / environments I assume? Need a control non-brain-injury population!

There is also a possible tie- in with the CFS/ ME population. There's someone with a website on managing this who recommends calculating a personal energy envelope - recording it on different paper resources ( supplied free for download online). What happens if you combine the two approaches and manually check your pulse at the beginning of an activity, and when you're hitting your limits? I'll and find a link abd post it later.

[Hidden in reply to Painting-girl]

Hahahaa, I can see you are getting fired up and on the case. Nice one painting girl. What ever you are thinking now could be further developed and who knows where your ideas will end up in a years time. Be brave, it's good cognitive exercise too as an added bonus. (what you do you become).

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Someone from the States sent me this.heartmath.com/?fbclid=IwAR1...

[Painting-girl in reply to Hidden]

Oh very interesting!

[Painting-girl]

Ok - so just on a very rough basis this morning.

Picked up Mum and drove her to health centre for Covid jab - felt ok - pulse rate @ 72.

Home and feet up now (after sandwich lunch at hers and talking) . Pretty wiped out now - pulse rate 84........ Interesting!

[Hidden in reply to Painting-girl]

Will be interested in the effects of shop lighting, screen time etc, these seem to wipe out many people. Must also think of experimental design.

[cashcraft39]

I think it’s a great idea. We have finger device to check oxygen and it also checks heart rate we could give it a try.

[Hidden in reply to cashcraft39]

Apparently this has been used for visual issues since the 80's in relation to direct visual stress from TBI. Sutton and Zelinski in the States.

[ored13]

This is really interesting. My husband is still in the very early stages of recovery. In have been wondering about his return home and what would benefit him and what would trigger stress aside from our children, but they're children.

[Hidden in reply to ored13]

This thinking has come from optometry, a way to guage the correct lenses for visual stress. The thinking was that it could be used an a warning system for anything that creates stress but from a brain injury perspective. Where the kids are concerned (having a giggle) I'm sure every parent would have the alarm bells ringing multiple times a day. It may be an idea to follow Painting Girl, she is going to experiment with it.

Sounds like it's early days for you, be steely and patient, the brain is a fragile but marvelous thing and recovery will happen. Keep strong, never give up.

[ored13]

Would this be similar to what they use in for some with dyslexia...my son has lenses for his visual stress. And yes I will keep an eye out on Painting Girl thanks🙂

[Hidden in reply to ored13]

Yep optometry, Irlenes, colourimetry, shaped yolk lenses, a multitude of visual correction methods. No one has cracked the flicker aspect of LED and fluorescent lights yet though.

[ored13 in reply to Hidden]

Ok I see. Well thank you for bringing it up. Will definitely follow this one closely.

[Painting-girl in reply to Hidden]

Hi again, I know fluorescent light - particularly older style lighting in stores totally slays me - but haven't noticed LED issues?

[Hidden in reply to Painting-girl]

Fluorescent has a serated quality, rough, cutting right into the brain. LED is volumous and causes millions of little dots to swim about in the head. Most institutions and modern shops have LED light, it is more 'cost' effective and brighter. Fluorescent was the early type of frequency lighting with a flicker of 40-50 flashes per second. LED is 40-60 flashes per second, the brighter the light the faster the flashing. This type of lighting has a double whammy, the brightness gets to people and also the flashing gets to people. If the brightness is reduced the flashing is reduced and becomes more perceptible and causes issues. I have asked a friend who is a head of the engineering department in my local uni to see if this problem can be solved. The idea would be to increase the flashing to maybe 120 per second, taking it beyond the normal range 60hz where most people can not perceive the flashing, but BI for some reason can see it. The screen would then be filtered off screen to reduce the brightness. Covid came and he had to put this on the back burner. So hopefully this will gain a bit of traction once the pandemic is over. I spun it with a business idea in mind to get him interested. There are obviously 100's of millions of people with brain injury's in the world and a screen for computing would sell like hotcakes if it could solve the flicker/brightness issue. This research would need investment and there would need to be a financial reward for the resulting product.

Keep going with your thoughts on the heart rate testing, there could be a product or a methodology in that too.

[Hidden in reply to Painting-girl]

Hi, I'm reading multiple books looking at sensory information and how it affects to body/mind. The very first thing I read today really helps to sink in the idea that may of the issues affecting BI are sensory processing orientated. Here's a quote from Jill Bolte Taylor's 'my stroke of insight'.

'To help me find my way back to my peaceful right mind, I look at how my body organises information into systems and capitalize on those already established circuits. I find that by paying attention to sensory information as it streams into my body is a very helpful tool. However, I don't just look at the sensory information, I constantly hook into the physiological experience underlying that sensory circuitry. I ask myself repeatedly, how does it feel to be here doing this.'

This is mindfulness off to a tee, but she is describing her method not the method used in mindfulness. It's the same thing. Looking at the progression of effects through the physiological system, sensory stimuli to feeling. The feeling is the triggering of an increased heart rate etc. The heart rate monitor proves the impact of the feeling. This is precognitive, automatic.

Just thought I'd share these thoughts.

[New_beginning]

You know the responses on this topic and insight, knowledgeable responses is fascinating, and Pairofboots you have much to give and share with your knowledge and background, you always have wise responses. Again loving this topic 🤩. Great Topic pinkvision, you are doing amazing with your research and i really enjoy areas you have researched and grateful for you sharing

[Hidden in reply to New_beginning]

This one with the heart rate monitor came from a friend in Montreal Canada. She mentioned that optometrists use them, in fact used one on her. Then I find out that optometrists use them as standard practice in the US and have done since the 1980's.

This is not my research but an idea that I thought of. I think Painting Girl is interested in it and is going to experiment on herself.

My research is linking cognitive rehab with mindfulness. I was lucky enough to find information which I linked together and started a DIY cognitive rehab program. I was diagnosed as unrecoverable by my neuropsychologist and after a year she was shocked at how much I recovered. I kept recovering and now I've gone back to university to put my method down on paper. I've come across quite a few research papers of scientists trying to do a similar thing but they don't really make any progress overall. They are working from theories and totally miss the obvious steps to take in my opinion. Experiencing the world through the eyes while having a BI is an advantage that's second to none.

Will see how it goes and I'll keep you informed.

The idea is to get the method validated and my friend in Montreal and another in the US will take it from there.

[Nackapan]

I find that a really hoid tool to use.I think my daughter had sone sort of wrist watch with a HR monitor fir pots.

I've had my neuro Opthalmologist appointment.

Stoll truing yo digest the non-event

As its thr first time in yesr I've been out if my 2 Mike zone I was totally on sensory overliD even with a hay and dark gksses

I stayed calm and managed my first escalator in the hospital.

Git the evevitabke headache but nor z migraine as before.

A very different experience. Walking straight not bouncing off walks .

And not bed boj d after car journey.

I will get a HR monitor and record.

I'm a calm person so shoukd be interesting lighrsxa huge problem still but again better tgsn before as csn walk straight. Some is adaption I think

Hope your studies going well.

Ax 2018 when I git ill.

So g

So to glad gih are getting on .