treating cll

[jgon1]

I just found this at the national library of medicine, saying that beat-carrot juice intake can help treat cll. Has anybody heard of it or tried it?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[AussieNeil Administrator]

The study title is "Beetroot-Carrot Juice Intake either Alone or in Combination with Antileukemic Drug ‘Chlorambucil’ As A Potential Treatment for Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia".

First off, this is a case study, which is next to useless in determining whether beet carrot juice may have reduced the lymphocyte count in just this one patient or might be a more generally useful treatment. Good clinical trials use blinded (or even better double blinded) random patient allocation into comparison arms, using a sufficiently large enough study group to determine if there is a statistical difference between the trial arms.

The claim about the possibility of beetroot-carrot juice having an effect on its own is covered in, Phase 2 (first relapse) - Beetroot- carrot juice protocol section (with my emphasis).

"In Fig. 1 & 2, it can be seen that by introducing 330 ml of the beetroot- carrot juice to the patient 6 times/week for duration of 1 month 15 days (from 7th May 2012 to 20th June 2012) had the potency to decrease leukocytes count from 61,200/cmm to 34,800/cmm and lymphocytes from 88% to75% on the 20th June 2012. There was also a reduced level of uric acid in blood by 11.57% (9.5 to 8.4 mg/dL).

The patient discontinued the beetroot- carrot juice for a period of 1 month during which she was not cooperative; however on the 20th of July 2012 she resumed the juice. Same dose of the juice was given once per day but only twice/week for a period of 2 months and 11 days till 1st of October 2012."

The authors acknowledge this in the Discussion section, where they state, "Stopping the beetroot-carrot juice for 1 month, then resumption of the juice for another 2 months and 11 days, leads to an increase in leukocytes and lymphocytes counts and increase in uric acid level."

Critically, figures 1 and 2 are potentially misleading as presented. Why show the absolute leukocyte count (i.e. the total white blood cell count) in figure 1 and the percentage of lymphocytes in figure 2? A more accurate measure for any treatment effect is by measuring the lymphocyte count, not the leukocyte count, as changes in other white blood cell types (usually dominated by neutrophil count changes, with the neutrophils and basophils strangely omitted while eosinophils and monocytes are mentioned in the case presentation notes), obfuscate any effect. To plot the percentage of lymphocytes, the researchers must have had the absolute lymphocyte counts. Why omit a plot of them, when this would more accurately show any changes in the CLL tumour burden?

We have just three blood test readings during this period, which shows the lymphocyte percentage to be the same at the start and end of this period. Importantly, we don't know what the actual absolute lymphocyte counts were, because the authors neglected to share them. Even if the lymphocyte counts improved, with one study subject, it's impossible to say whether the protocol may have been responsible, or just a chance occurrence. Note also the concerning dramatic reduction in platelets in this phase, from 191 to 120, before recovering to 155.

While "The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.", they are employed by the National Research Centre, Nutrition and Food Science Department of Egypt. (my emphasis).

Neil

PS Congratulations on your first post. Please don't let my criticism of this study dissuade you from further community involvement. We can all learn from examining the techniques study authors use to communicate their findings. There may well be a place for the combination of certain natural extracts, etc., with treatment drugs to improve the effectiveness and or reduce treatment toxicity and other much better studies have shown such effects, but you can't prove this in a case study.

[jgon1]

I misspelled beet. And I should have said beetroot as stated in the article. Thanks

[AussieNeil Administrator in reply to jgon1]

You can always correct your posts/replies via the "More v"... "Edit" option.

I've looked at this study before, but your mention of it, along with my reading of reviews of preprints during the pandemic, has sadly left me more cynical about how papers are presented. I've just looked at the study again and find it very strange that there's zero mention of neutrophils. Neutropenia is always a concern during treatment, so should be monitored, particularly if you are trying to make a case for reducing treatment toxicities. From the white cell percentages stated in case presentation notes, at that point, the patient's neutrophils would have accounted for about 10% of her leukocytes. Looking at lymphocyte percentages is very misleading when you have CLL, as I've illustrated here.

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

Neil

[gardening-girl]

jgon1, as a follow-up to your post and AussieNeil 's reply, I found the following in an article that cited the Beetroot-Carrot Juice paper.

"Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), as opposed to evidence-based medicine (EBM), is not grounded in well-designed clinical studies, and thus may not be effective or may even harm patients."

"Patients diagnosed with cancer are frequently confused due to the unpredictability of the situation, stress, and fear of the future of themselves and their families. The willingness to actively participate in the therapeutic process may prompt them to seek allegedly effective CAM options. Patients attempt these methods to increase treatment efficacy, alleviate treatment side effects, or improve their physical and mental condition. However, in many instances, patients replace main treatments with alternative methods, which may considerably worsen their prognosis.

"

This publication did not attempt to dispute the results of the Beetroot-Carrot Juice paper, it was simply citing it as an example of CAM. The publication was written to inform health care professionals that they need to be aware of the popularity of CAM and be prepared to engage in rational discussions including evidence-based information about CAM, indicating therapies that could supplement conventional methods and those that should definitely be avoided.

Complementary and Alternative Therapies in Oncology 2022 Apr 21

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

As Neil said, congratulations on your first post! Mmmm, I love strawberries!

gardening-girl

[kitchengardener2]

Well done on your first post and welcome. As Neil says it's a case study not a general study but nevertheless interesting. Perhaps it is just as well to carry on eating a general mixed good diet. I tend to avoid overload of any one thing but love all fruit and vegetables. I grow much of my own vegetables and salad and believe that eating it as fresh as possible is the best way to absorb the vitamins. I also use all vegetable cooking water for stocks and gravy.

[LeoPa]

I doubt it helps with CLL but it will likely make you look orange tinted and raise your blood sugar levels rapidly after each drink 😃

[richutchens]

Going on a whole food plant based diet with no salt, oil or sugar will certainly be most effective against any cancer.

[JLJC]

I drink 2 oz of each,organic beet, carrot and oj everyday. It has lot of good nutrient’s and I want to believe it helped get my hemoglobin back up to almost normal levels.

[Eucalyptus22]

I take beetroot and carrot juice 2/3 times every week. In fact all my family do and we can all feel the benefits. It is also good for your blood pressure and I don't care if anybody 'disses' that on this site, it's my family's experience. Not everything in life has to have a double blind placebo control test to be effective. 'Traditional medicine ' isn't really into nutrition and the power of food in the body. There just isn't the research out there and no-one keen to fund it. Just do your own research and ask others for their opinions. Check out Dr William Li and his book Eat to Beat Disease'. You will learn a lot about the power of food in the body. We live with a 'incurable blood cancer' but that doesn't mean you can't make your body as hostile to cancer as possible through what you eat. Although I am in treatment my bloods are very good and I have more energy when I take the juice. My haemoglobin is excellent. A word of warning though. If you take too much it can spike your blood sugar if you're diabetic. Little and often is better.

[Kasif in reply to Eucalyptus22]

Our society in general believe that medicine cures everything. For example, It has been proven that whole food plant base prevents heart disease, but we rather eat whatever and take Statins for the rest of our lives.

[craterlake in reply to Eucalyptus22]

I take beetroot powder ,barley green powder and buffered vit. c . .. a couple times a week . now that it is summer,,, finally , i think i will start taking it everyday . it also helps with my digestion when i drink it with a savory meal in early afternoon for lunch .. i would expect that it also would not give a person a blood sugar spike if you drink it with a low carb meal ... unless like you stated the person is diabetic. i can definitely feel the difference in my energy level ...at 73 with CLL and calquence i can use all the xtra energy i can get and it lowers my blood pressure by about 8 points ... if you watch the video the " the game changers " youtube.com/watch?v=kRCIkTu...(Not working as expected?) ---- you will learn that many athletes are vegan --even arnold swartzeneger states in the documentary that he is 99% vegan ... so a little veggy juice has got to be good for most of us...

[bennevisplace]

Case studies like this are intriguing to read and tempting to see as evidence. I didn't find this one rigorous enough to be very convincing.

Sometimes the authors will think their work deserves further study and sometimes they are right. The problem then is: who is going to fund, with regulatory approval for, a randomised controlled study in a number of patients, of a current CLL treatment plus/ minus Complementary-Alternative Medicine? The cost of such a study is only justified by potential revenue in the future. Financially beet+carrot juice doesn't cut it. Its therapeutic potential in CLL will never be properly, scientifically explored.

Then again, if you think it helps, drink it. Just watch the sugar levels.

[Notmuchenergy]

I tried this for 2 years. I juiced organic beetroot and organic carrots every day in a juicer that was least damaging to the veg. It didn’t seem to change my numbers but it didn’t do me any harm. I drank an 8 ounce tumbler eatery day. I gave up eventually.

[craterlake in reply to Notmuchenergy]

thats a lot of work . i just buy the freeze dried powder .. mix a strong half a glass and down the hatch ...