CLL and vaccination

[Ebenezer68]

If CLL is an over abundance of white blood cells and white blood cells are the cells that fight off diseases and viruses shouldn’t we have more protection from viruses than the ordinary person? I hope I phrase that right, I am at a quandary. I talked with my Hematologist yesterday couldn’t get an answer I could understand, but it seems as if he feels the same way. Someone please explain in layman language. Thanks.

[JigFettler Volunteer]

Hi and greetings from the UK

Good question. If the white blood cells are in huge numbers why indeed do we not have an advantage. In fact - in CLL - its the B Lymphocytes that are affected - the very ones that produce the antibodies everyone is talking about. IgG.

Its complicated - first the virus needs to be detected as not self and potentially a threat. This is done through signaling and its a rapid complex series of inter white blood cell triggering. The effect of this wakes up the "engineering" dept - to rapidly up-regulate the DNA of the white blood cell to produce the antibody that exactly fits the virus.

This is a hugely complex and miraculous process. To me - akin to astrophysics. Hard to understand.

In CLL - some of these steps are not functioning too well. CLL is a hetergeneous condition - meaning my CLL is not the same as yours. ALSO its fluid, meaning it can change with time and behave differently.

This is the reason why some with CLL have had Covid and not known - asymptomatic, and others have had an awful time, or worse.

Take watch and wait - for many its years - then at some point treatment is needed.

In my case FCR was a good thing - I am in remission. And in time things could change and my Lymphocyte count will rise again - relapse. I will need another treatment. And very likely will be on the Forum crying "help"!

Infact - I was diagnosed 6 years ago, had chemo FCR, and in remission - my wife and daughter have had 8 respiratory colds in that time - pre Covid. I have had nothing - while I would have expected to...curious.

So - may I suggest that you look at the pinned posts - on the right you will see the links.

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

Also

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

Jeff has done a wonderful job looking at CLL and writing about it so we can understand better. cajunjeff thank you again for this!

Lastly - please ask more questions - as and when and if you need to.

Stay safe.

Jig

PS Consider LOCKING your post.

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

[Ebenezer68 in reply to JigFettler]

Thanks that was an answer I can understand, thanks again. Isn’t our bodies a miraculous thing. It amazes me how I person can catch Covid by being in the area and another can play with the virus all day and not be affected. We should work on finding those that are immune and using there blood or plasma to develop a vaccine. Is that possible. Or am I wishful thinking.

[tedrog in reply to Ebenezer68]

pretty sure we have that. Convalescent plasma.

here where i live you can get regeneron for free. aka ‘monoclonal antibodies’.

[Big_Dee in reply to JigFettler]

Hello JigFettler & Ebenezer68

We are indeed all different. I have not had any illness for 3 years, post treatment. I also am not susceptible to allergic reactions. Poison Ivey and wasp stings do not bother me. I was bit by a poisonous copperhead snake last Friday and had no reaction to bit other than I still have two little red dots where bitten. Very very complicated. Blessings.

[Newdawn Administrator]

I see it simply in terms of having an army full of useless soldiers who keep recruiting more duds and only some of them can fight. The rest become a nuisance, they’ve joined up on crutches, get in the way and clog up the system. We only need the functioning white blood cells (soldiers) but in CLL, more are generated but they can’t fight for us. We need quality white blood cell ‘soldiers’, not quantity.

Simplistic yes and I apologise to the scientific purists! 😉

Newdawn

[JigFettler Volunteer in reply to Newdawn]

Fortunately we have the SAS-like Neutrophils, (Navy Seals for our US friends) macrophages, and our valiant T cells.

And of course a little care from ourselves to try and avoid an infection in the first place.

Jig

[SupportiveMum in reply to Newdawn]

Love this explanation, Newdawn! 😊

[Shepherd777 in reply to Newdawn]

Wow!! Your post sounded like Cajunjeff wrote it. Very very clear and with a bit of humor too.

[Belfastbees in reply to Newdawn]

I think of my white cells. Exactly like this too, like an army of mostly hesitant conscripts. It's a serious issue but it does amuse me to think also of lazy cells that will spot an infection but take the attitude 'you want me to get that' like Jessica Tates butler, Benson, in Soap.

[Zeus52 in reply to Newdawn]

Brilliant explanation NewDawn!

[Fran57 in reply to Newdawn]

Brilliant way of explaining… I love it! Thank you. I hope you are beginning to feel better now.

Stay safe, Fran 😷

[Ngtinfu in reply to Newdawn]

Excellent explanation!

[gardening-girl]

Ebenezer

, I guess I can understand your confusion. The most basic explanation for why your vast number of lymphocytes are not going to protect you against COVID-19 is that your CLL cells are all related to each other, they are clonal, and all have the same B Cell Receptors (BCR) at their surface. It is the BCR of B cells that respond to a foreign antigen (from a vaccine, virus, pathogen, peanut, etc), and in the case of CLL, the BCRs are not going to respond to any of these antigens.

It is your naïve B cells that respond to infection or vaccination, not your CLL clone. Your CLL clone has only one kind of BCR (B cell receptor). It is identical in every one of your CLL cells and there’d be only one in a billion chances (I made up that number) that your CLL BCR would interact with any SARS-CoV-2 protein antigens and be able to provide any protection.

In a healthy individual there would be millions of naïve B cells each with a different BCR. Each cell only living a few days unless engaging with an antigen. B cells encountering a cognate/binding antigen and receiving appropriate T cell help in the T cell areas, form germinal centers in the lymph node follicles, where they divide rapidly, and undergo random somatic hypermutation and selection for B cells with higher affinity BCRs. The B cells with the highest affinity to the antigen out compete those with lower affinity and transform to become antibody secreting plasma cells. Some of these high affinity B cells become memory cells with BCRs ready to engage with their cognate antigen when it again appears. When it does appear they proliferate to become antibody secreting plasma cells, producing antibody that specifically interacts with the cognate antigen.

www2.nau.edu/~fpm/immunolog...

Your CLL clone, as Newdawn has said is an army full of useless soldiers

which crowds your bone marrow and lymph nodes, decreasing the number of naïve B cells and therefore making it less likely that there will be many available to engage with an antigen in the SARS-CoV-2 virus, thus precluding a robust B cell response to the virus.

Please take a look at cajunjeff 's midwinter post for a more general look at Cll and the Immune System.

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

[bennevisplace in reply to gardening-girl]

👏 thanks!

[LeoPa]

In layman's terms,no. The extra white cells are dysfunctional. They are good for nothing. They crowd out the functional ones. The more good for nothing ones and the less functional ones the worst your immunity. I'm quite sure that's your hematologist doesn't feel the same way. You must have misunderstood him.

[MarieDenise22]

Though CLL indeed causes an overabundance of White blood cells, most are immature and do not offer more protection to infection, but less.Simply put, the immature cells do not know how to do their job. Hope this helps.