I just found a fabulous 2018 study which explains why green tea, pomegranates, strawberries and other foods containing elegitannins (and thus EA) could reduce your lymphocyte counts:
2018 study explains why Green Tea, pomegranate... - CLL Support
The word "apostosis" means normal cellular death. Cancerous Lymphocytes don't normally die. That's why they keep building up in ever higher numbers in your blood stream. Eating Ellegitannins could reduce those counts. Here are the two key quotes:
1. "Ellagic acid is a naturally occurring phenolic compound that is contained in ellagitannins in grapes, nuts, strawberries, black currents, raspberries, green tea, pomegranates, and the stem and bark of Eucalyptus globulus and as well as royal jelly and honey . EA exerts potent preventive and therapeutic effects against several types of cancers, including colon cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, skin cancer, esophageal cancer, and osteogenic sarcoma. The anti-carcinogenic properties of EA have drawn increasing attention globally."
2. "Defected apoptosis signaling represents a major causative factor in the development and progression of CLL. The ability of CLL B-lymphocytes to evade engagement of apoptosis can play a significant role in their resistance to conventional therapeutic regimens . We proved that EA selectively induced apoptosis in CLL but not healthy normal B-lymphocytes (Fig. 2, Fig. 3). "
Thank you for your vigorous championing of natural edibles in the management of CLL.
Please expect demand of the highest evidence standards from members of this Forum.
We proved that EA selectively induced apoptosis in CLL but not healthy normal B-lymphocytes
I would suggest while their results showed this, this observation is not proof.
I would counsel caution before rushing out to buy pomegranate. Notwithstanding its inhibitor action thru CYP3A4 effects...
We are all holding to account our medical advisers to ensure we get the best treatment options for this heterogeneous, idiosyncratic and fluid disease.
Sorry HowardR I don't think this study is fabulous or that it explains any such thing. It's also from 2015 and not 2018.
The paper is littered with maybe, perhaps and other equivocal language and proves nothing, just that there may be a hypothesis that needs more examination and investigation.
It's an even further stretch to say that the results suggest that these foods "could reduce your lymphocyte counts".
This site is careful not to promote alternative regimes and your use of the phrase "could reduce your lymphocyte counts" is ill advised and could deter others from seeking the treatment they need whilst following what you suggest.
This was published in "Redox Biology Volume 6, December 2015, Pages 461-471". In the Discussion section, I was surprised to read this poor reference about Fludarabine, in "Toxicity of fludarabine and cyclophosphamide with or without rituximab as initial therapy for patients with previously untreated mantle cell lymphoma." (my emphasis) i. e.
"Fludarabine has now been shown to be the most effective agent in the treatment of the disease, more effective than the previous standard therapy with chlorambucil. However, the toxicity of fludarabine has led to controversy over whether the drug should be used as first-line treatment or only after chlorambucil proved unsuccessful."
Surely a much better reference would have been a paper by Dr Michael Keating, about how he changed departments in MD Anderson specifically over this controversy about the toxicity of Fludarabine. He went on to develop the long accepted CLL gold standard treatment of Fludarabine, Cyclophosphamide and Rituximab (FCR).
Interesting that this paper has highlighted the mitochondrial weakness in CLL, as has Venetoclax most successfully. There are a few other apoptosis pathways in CLL targeted by EGCG in green tea, which is why Mayo Clinic has established patents for the use of EGCG with other accepted CLL treatment drugs.
Note that this research is done in vitro. What's of particular note is how the researcher attempts to somewhat create the microenvironment of CLL cells in proliferation nodes in 2.2. B-lymphocyte isolation ... "This cell preparation contained about 95% CD19 (B lymphocyte antigen) positive cells. It was added stromal cell-derived factor-1 to rescue B-lymphocytes from apoptosis "
Again, here is yet another proof that there is research being done on supposedly unpatentable natural products.
Reading through the steps involved in providing samples of CLL cells for testing also shows how wide the difference is between in vitro and in vivo testing.
I've only just started a trial that is attempting to show if the non chemo protocols of Acalabrutinib in combination with Venetoclax or Acalabrutinib in combination with Venetoclax and Obinutuzumab can match what FCR achieves in 6 cycles of 4 weeks, but in 14 cycles of 4 weeks.
As I noted, these are only a few initial observations. It's a very interesting paper.
On a personal note, I have been taking about 2 grams per day of EGCG for over 10 years. More than that probably caused transaminitis - a recognised side effect of high green tea supplement consumption. My nodes and enlarged spleen didn't noticeably change over time in comparison to my cytopenias, with neutrophil, platelet and red blood cell counts falling over time, such that I needed to start treatment due to low platelets and have just had a red blood cell transfusion to lift my anaemia. Green tea might reduce node size and or lymphocyte count, but it doesn't seem to be able to clear bone marrow infiltration.
The underlying problem with any natural treatment is having access to high quality product that doesn't contain dangerous levels of contaminants, etc or known prescription drugs to get the claimed effect. In Australia, unlike most countries, supplements must be registered with a regulatory body, in our case the Therapeutic Goods Administration, which performs a similar function to the USA's FDA. That's why Dr Neil Kay, one of the authors of the Mayo Clinic Phase 1 and 2 papers, recommended green tea supplements not be bought "because we don't know what's in it".
I commend you for your consistently even-handed comments. The discourse here can often be somewhat disparaging for those CLL patients who embrace healthy dietary and lifestyle modifications coupled with well-researched supplements and plant powders as complements to SOC treatments. Mayo seems to lead the field in research using plant extracts, as their EGCG and Neem Leaf Extract studies demonstrate. There is usually instantaneous and wide spectrum criticism here for even those studies.
I was diagnosed when the Mayo Clinc EGCG trials were underway and, like you, have taken varying dosages as part of my supplement regime over the last 12 years with no apparent side effects and continuous W&W status for the duration. And while correlation does not = causation, I stand by my conviction that my personal life style modifications have had a major role in keeping me off treatment these past 13 years.
Thanks again for your thoughtful contributions. May everyone here have Happy, Healthy 2020. Be Well - cujoe
N=1. If you derived benefits that's AWESOME! I am psyched for you!
But my N=1 is contrary. I was already living an extremely healthy lifestyle, got plenty of exercise, ate super clean organic free range pasture raised wild caught diet, never ate packaged/processed foods, took a reasonable range of supplements for general health and longevity etc...
My ALC went high of normal range in July-Aug 2018 and I received a diagnosis of monoclonal B cell lymphocytosis. I researched the subject of natural/supplemental prevention of CLL and prostate cancer since I had high PSA concurrently. On diagnosis, I took Green tea extract in high enough dose to monitor liver function, high dose curcumin, ate broccoli sprouts for sulphorophane every day, morphed diet into "anti cancer" diet with high proportion of crucifers, alliums, dark fruits and berries etc., including pomegranate and cranberry particularly for the prostate.
Now 15 months later you could say I'm fighting for my life with CLL, though really there is no fight. It is more submitting to mainstream treatment.
When it comes to the CLL for me, living the healthy lifestyle, taking the supplements and recommended natural anti cancer path apparently did precisely... nothing.
I am not advocating against eating well and living a healthy lifestyle. I am advocating against flawed incomplete research and anecdotally based notions of cures, especially when there is no clear trend in such anecdotes. If these things indeed worked really well, we would know by virtue of overwhelming numbers of anecdote.
I also believe that science can progress even by means of methods we consider somewhat alternative, like overwhelming internet anecdote (note: this does not mean re-tweeting). If there are indeed say 10,000 cases of CLL in remission by virtue of green tea and or pomegranate, that is pertinent, and the scientific studies should follow.
Sorry your N=1 trial proved less effective than mine. However, since I also have prostate cancer, and am currently inexplicably also off-treatment for that as well, I'll stick by my personal conviction (based entirely on my personal anecdotal evidence) that my personal interventions have allowed me to so far avoid any treatments for CLL (13 years +) and (for the time being at least) eliminate any on-going treatments for PCa. (2 years and counting)
As for my lifestyle & diet modifications and other things I've done, I did them willingly and with great enthusiasm - and the resulting sense of well-being I have gotten is of great benefit regardless of any medical benefit I do or do not get. Most importantly, it has allowed me significant participation in the treatment of MY diseases.
We both most likely provide examples of the diversity of the human metabolism when it comes to cancer, a disease with which I have extensive familial experience. Significantly, I spent a weekend last year with four other PCa patients, all with more advanced disease and all much younger than me. My wish for them and all those battling CLL here on this site and elsewhere is that they all have the good fortune to experience life without the need for treatments of any kind. That is the least we can envisage for each other. I hope your treatments get you to that point one day soon.
Be Well - cujoe
Your paragraph "I am not advocating against eating well and living a healthy lifestyle. I am advocating against flawed incomplete research and anecdotally based notions of cures, especially when there is no clear trend in such anecdotes. If these things indeed worked really well, we would know by virtue of overwhelming numbers of anecdote." really resonated with me.
I also agree 100% with you about retweeting. We aren't seeing even 100 cases of CLL in remission by virtue of any alternative means, let alone 10,000. The gap between the best evidence for any alternative treatment (with the possible borderline exception of EGCG, which lacks long term data) and evidence based treatments, is so huge that it puts the alternative treatments into the noise of the spontaneous remissions.
Thank you for sharing your experiences.
My healthful regime has been similar to yours for decades. A big fat “NOTHING” is my personal conclusion also. However, CLL did not strike me until age 76, after an extremely healthy lifetime of no co-morbidities and zero prescriptions. Apart from dying from CLL, I am fantastically healthy! I consider this a victory. Elizabeth.
Hi aussie neil why are some of the people on here including you so negative when someone puts on that certain foods can help i think its a good thing when people put hope into others no one knows how cll behaves in different people but i do believe that fruits ext do help,you seem to write long long paragraphs are you copying from google ??????
your comments are unkind, uncalled for and show your niavity in this area. Neil, has an enormous amount of experience and knowledge regarding supplements including food.
Our discussions and suggestions should always be based on firm evidence other than when someone is relating their experience. Neither situation was the case with this post and people made their own deductions.
You are free to believe what you wish but unsubstantiated recommendations regarding food or supplements that may deter someone from accessing medical advice or treatment is against the posting guidelines for good reason.
Personal insults, like yours to Neil, are also not allowed as per the posting guidelines and reflect badly on you. We are all here just to try and help each other and sometimes that means saying to someone that they are very probably wrong.
Please take the time to familiarise yourself with them before writing any further posts or replies.
From my point of view a rebuttal stating facts such as Neil presented is neither positive nor negative. It is simply a substantiated rebuttal.
In the continuing conversation we all should agree that any study showing a desirable outcome is a work in progress until final or proven otherwise. A benefit for one is not necessarily a benefit for the other. In addition the dialog may suggest individual, group or corporate context and not a universal absoluteness.
Respectively, your point regarding certain foods helping is well received as is the idea Howard may be suggesting with natural edibles.
Collectively, society falls far short of the recommended intake of fruit and vegetable serves. One thing I have successfully done with my diet is to increase the amount and variety of vegetables in my diet. I think my record stands at 13 different vegetables in a meal I prepared. Howe are you doing?
I endeavour to keep my contributions evidence based. With respect to how much I write and the sources of the original material, I always endeavour to either quote that material when i use it and I usually change the font to italics (not easy using a smart phone), PLUS I include references where I can. If you don't believe me, then you can submit my text to plagiarism checkers if you wish.
I have been through disappointments many times supporting family members seeking alternative cures when evidence based medicine could not help. Eventually the causes were found to have a genetic basis. Like all of us, I've lost friends to cancer, including too many who tried altenative treatments to no avail. I've seen the heartbreak in those left behind. So I personally have witnessed how these scammers take advantage of society's vulnerable and disadvantaged.
Charlatans prey on desperate people by offering them false hope - often dressed up in pseudo science designed to impress. I am trying to prevent further disappointment where I can. by pointing out the evidence from reputable sources that highlights the dubious nature of many of alternative medicine's claims.
I personally stand by my regular comment that there is far greater evidence for the benefits of exercise than there is for diet in improving our health. When I was well enough to be employed, I used to cycle over 6,000 miles a year - and at a good pace too! It didn't stop me from getting CLL.
One role of the moderators on here from my standpoint is to act as gatekeepers to protect the community from people posting cll remedies that lack scientific support. Howard, as well motivated as he might be, has been advocating pomegranate not just as a healthy food choice but as a treatment for cll.
Howard was appropriately challenged on that in prior posts he made and he then posted an article on this thread which falls very short of scientific support for pomegranate. I know of zero true cll experts that believe pomegranate treats cll. In my view, in his role as gatekeeper Neil very respectfully challenged Howard’s assertions.
I think the moderators would have been justified in deleting the post but in the interest of free speech and an open discussion left it up.
If you have science supporting pomegranate as a treatment, post it so we can see if it’s legit. If you know of recognized doctors using it, link to that info.
I am on ibrutinib. If you wanted me to provide support for it I could link to dozens of articles from major cancer centers proving it kills cll cells. I could link to a dozen videos of top doctors using it. Those who are advocating some natural "treatment" for cll should come forward with the same set of proof and show support from traditional cll doctors. I know some people think just because there are not a lot of studies supporting a natural treatment doesn't mean it doesn't work, but as I understand the rule of this site require treatments be accepted by the general medical community, not an odd doctor here and there.
Howard has been making claims about pomegranate unsupported by the type of science supporting the traditional remedies many of us take. I support his right to use pomegranate and green tea and whatever for himself 100 percent. I cant say it will not work. But it shouldn't be promoted on a science based site like this without satisfactory proof.
We know up front this is a science based forum. I appreciate Neil and the other gatekeepers keeping it that way.
Another finding in the study is that you should not eat foods with BHA (a commonly used preservative) in them if you want the EA to work. In other words, don't eat processed foods. A quote from NIH: "BHA is added to butter, lard, meats, cereals, baked goods, sweets, beer, vegetable oils, potato chips, snack foods, nuts and nut products, dehydrated potatoes, and flavoring agents."
Why not include the reference so that those interested can learn more about it? ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/c...
I suspect that the finding that BHT interfered with EA is actually a significant part of the study. Both substances are anti-oxidants. In fact, some of the proponents of BHT once argued that it could be *good* for you, because anti-oxidants are generally good for you.
I remember another study which found that curcumin (the anti-oxidant found in turmeric) interferes with EA. In that study, both curcumin and EGCG were both effective by themselves against CLL, but the combo administered together was less effective than either alone. So, there are at least two studies which show of anti-oxidants interfere with EA, So if you are consuming EA, you maybe shouldn't be consuming other anti-oxidants at the same time.
There are a lot of anti-oxidants that some of us take to fight CLL. For example, many of us eat turmeric with pepper (curcumin), broccoli sprouts with mustard (sulforaphane), onions or garlic (allyl sulfur), or flaxseed oil or sardines (omega 3). All of these may be effective against cancer in general, but could prevent EA from reducing your leukocyte count if eaten at the same time.
As a result of this conclusion, I changed my eating strategy. I now take my green tea supplements and anardana (ground turmeric seed) during breakfast (oatmeal) and evening snack (yogurt), and don't eat any other anti-oxidant at the same time. I still eat other anti-oxidants (including turmeric & sulforaphane), but I do so at lunch time as part of my salad dressing.
There are, I’m sure, thousands of research projects going on around the world looking for ways to avoid or defeat cancer at this moment. And some of the most important discoveries in medicine have been the result of people who said “What if?” and then looked for answers to the question. Penicillin comes to mind. Some of our most important tools in the cancer war are plant based. Is it Vincristine that comes from the Medagascar Periwinkle? Have to look that one up.
I was talking, recently, to an associate of Associates Insectary, a nationally based company dealing with pest control for farmers. One approach that they use is beneficial insects, when possible. He said that plant researchers have discovered that some plants - strawberries are one - have natural toxins against some pests. Man’s job is to not interfere with that, while controlling new pests coming in from other areas / countries. At the same time, if you fed someone an extraordinary amount of strawberries. (more than probably humanly possible) it would prove to be toxic to them. Who would have thought? Someone did and researched it (enough to find the toxins. No people died as a result of living on strawberries! LOL!) I think that broccoli was also on that list.
Will that concept lead to discoveries in human medicine? Who knows? I’m sure that it’s being looked at, but the results are “not ready for prime time” yet.
I recall Dr. Keating, several years ago, using extracts from watercress as a possible Cancer treatment. He wrote about using it for his dogs with success. I’m not making this up. At the time I had a cat who had just been diagnosed with CLL - very hard, as my treatment was working, while hers wasn’t. My speciality vet and Dr. Keating wrote back and forth discussing the possibility of trying it for the cat. The watercress research disappeared somewhere along the way, as have thousands of other research ideas that at one time looked exciting, but never got past the initial research stages. But it only takes one breakthrough, because those researchers kept trying new things and sharing ideas, to give us the next new treatment that does make a difference.
My cousin - Follicular Lymphoma transformed to DLBCL and treated with RCHOP - is now in a small study at Kansas State.
ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT03776149
Recruitment Status : Enrolling by invitation
First Posted : December 14, 2018
Last Update Posted : December 14, 2018
Kansas State University
Information provided by (Responsible Party):
Carl Ade, M.S., Ph.D., Kansas State University
Study Details Tabular ViewNo Results PostedDisclaimerHow to Read a Study Record
Go to sections
The aim of the current project is to understand the effect of dietary nitrates (via beet-root juice), on its ability to improve parameters of cardiovascular health in cancer survivors with a history of anthracycline chemotherapy.
Condition or disease Intervention/treatmentPhase
Cancer Survivor With History of Anthracycline Chemotherapy
Dietary Supplement: Beetroot juice
Dietary Supplement: Black currant juice
I suspect that the research won’t get any farther than this phase one trial, but who knows? My cousin has already determined that he is in the beet root cohort, as he happens to be a fan of beet juice. He has also already skewed the results. Participants are evaluated based on how long they can keep peddling on a stationary bike with increasing tension before they give out. On his initial assessment (redone twice) he peddled until the bike gave out, but he is a serious cyclist.
I’m looking forward to seeing the final results from this trial. Will it go on to phase ll? Will something seen lead to a new and different idea about treatment related myopathy or new ideas about cardiac health?
I think that it’s interesting to hear about new research from reputable centers as it is happening. If it is more than two years old, and is not ongoing, or leading to a next concept,I think it is time to let it go. Campath, HUMax, lenolidimide - all we’re going to be THE ANSWER at some point in my journey. They’re still around, but not as the cure for CLL My brain is on overload just trying to keep up with the ideas that are still in the race and all of the new ones coming.
I have no problem with posts about an interesting new idea that is being currently explored. But, posts stating that X, Y, or Z has shown cancer fighting properties need to be CURENT(this year) and have made it to ongoing or concluded HUMAN trials before I want to spend time reading about it. Just my take on things, whether the information is about chemo, inhibitors, plant based approaches. etc. Learning about CLL is confusing enough without complicating the picture.
Howard, as others have stated, the paper you cite doesn’t really say what you say it does. And it’s a stand alone study, there is not much other support for it, which is typical with most alternative therapies.
Contrast that with the studies and trials for traditional treatments like fcr, ibrutinib and venetoclax. For these treatments one can find literally dozens of papers and trials sponsored by major medical centers like Mayo Clinic and md anderson and authored by the most respected leaders in Cll treatment.
I keep an open mind to all treatments, even natural ones. Indeed I would love it if green tea and banana/strawberry pomegranate shakes could cure my leukemia.
Isolated and vaguely written studies do nothing for me but reinforce my belief that these remedies probably do not work. The danger to me is that some people desperate for natural remedies will read more into this study than it says, as I think you have.
You have but three original posts on the forum I see, all pushing a natural remedy agenda. I actually much prefer this post of yours because at least you give us some study that can be examined and critiqued. That is much better than pushing pomegranate as a Cll treatment under guise of providing a salad dressing recipe. I don’t mean that to sound harsh, it’s just how I read you recipe post. I thought it was more you advocating pomegranate as a treatment with no science than providing a recipe.
I will continue to keep an open mind. What I want to see with pomegranates and green tea is like what I see with traditional treatments. I want to see lots of studies from a variety of respected medical centers run by top Cll doctors.
By way of example, green tea advocates love to tout a 2010 study from Mayo Clinic. It just doesn’t say what they say it does and it’s an isolated study with no follow up. At least it’s from a reputable center.
I am taking ibrutinb now. There are literally dozens of trials worldwide proving its effectiveness and detailing for me all the risks and side effects. That’s science for me. Not an isolated article or two that pomegranate or green tea killed some cancer cells in a Petri dish.
Show me a few human blind studies where large groups of people got better taking green tea and pomegranate vs a control group that took a placebo or took a proven Cll treatment, that’s what I want to see. That’s the type of trials that drugs like Ibrutinib and venetoclax had to survive to get fda apripoval.
Better yet, show me fda approval, not some conspiracy theory that the fda and pharma companies don’t want pomegranate treatments for us.
In the absence of fda approval or studies from established cancer centers, a link to an article or video from a respected Cll specialist like Dr Byrd, Dr Weirda, Dr O’Brien, Dr Keating or Dr Sharman would be great. Show me where these doctors are putting their patients on pomegranate and strawberries.
I asked Dr Keating if I should drink green tea. He said only if liked the taste of it, that it would provide no real benefit to my Cll.
One of the advantages of working in Cairo [the Egyptian one] is that I can eat as much pomegranate as I would like. I really rather like pomegranates, and they're very common here; at least in season. My local supermarket also supplies fresh pomegranate juice, which I'm also fond of.
I also really rather like green tea, though it's easier to bring that back from the UK. I drink a fair amount of green tea every day. My local supermarket also offers fresh strawberry juice, and having that over good Greek yogurt is an occasional treat.
But I eat pomegranates, and drink copious amounts of green tea and pomegranate juice (and occasional strawberry juice) because I like them and they help keep me happy, not because I expect them to have much of an impact on my CLL. Likewise exercising regularly and eating a generally healthy diet (alright, except for the occasional bag of crisps/potato chips; we all have our vices); they help keep me happy.
If green tea, pomegranates, and strawberries help keep you happy, then by all means. Who are we to argue? Keeping a positive frame of mind is important when you have a difficult health condition; and, short of slightly exotic allergy, I doubt they can hurt you. If you're expecting them to have a significant impact on your CLL, however, I fear that you're courting disappointment for any number of reasons that others contributing to this thread have expressed more eloquently than I could.
I have a bridge for sale.
It’s truly heart breaking that you have so far to go in your learning curve in this disease.
If food cured cancer people would be cured. I think it’s what’s contaminated the food that’s the problem.
Please consult a specialist for help controlling your disease and don’t insult my intelligence with this garbage.
Let's be careful not to discourage each other on this site. I rather enjoyed the lively discussion and learned some interesting things. Thanks for the post. Of course we have to be careful not to dogmatically advocate something which may not be beneficial for all. I for one always read everything with the salt shaker nearby (I mean, with a grain of salt) and deeply hope that new and even better therapies continue to be developed, whatever they are derived from!
It seems like anytime someone has an alternative opinion to the regulars here it always gets out of hand and the attacks begin. I didn't take his google remark to be offensive. I google most issues and have links to them and have learned much about CLL from it as well as other health issues we have had to deal with . I wish we could discuss our thoughts and ideas - since we are all here to fight this crazy illness - and not be attacked one way or the other. No one is telling someone what treatment they have to take, but I don't believe open discussions of alternatives is bad.
I’ve replied to you as one of the Administrators of this site with every right to moderate your inappropriate and personally offensive posts which breach posting guidelines.
Further personally abusive comments regarding any individual could lead to you being restricted from posting on this site.
You may not like the message but you’ve no special right to abuse the messenger.
A few days ago an article was posted "2009 STUDY: Spontaneous regression of chronic lymphocytic leukemia". I don't believe they find enough similarities among the few patients to conclude that what they ate provided their regression. same goes for the 2018 study you provided. It will require years of research and clinical trials to determine effectiveness and dosage of the "natural remedies" mentioned. Drinking to much water can kill you. We now have people in US dying from using bootleg vaping inhalants, because "if a little works, a whole lot works even better". Blessings.