My 80-year-old dad was diagnosed with heart failure in November (2022), he spent about 2 weeks in hospital and has subsequently moved in with my sister and brother-in-law to be cared for.
He's lost a couple of stone, given up alcohol and is eating well, but only occasionally and very half-heartedly exercises (he has osteoarthritis in his knees, so understandable to a point). He has LV ejection fraction of 25%, stage 3 heart failure but doesn't want to try to improve his situation, consequently life at home is not the bed of roses they all imagined it would be.
It feels as if Dad has resigned himself to death, he doesn't realise that he could have a few more years left in him and seriously fails to comprehend the importance of 1. trying to live as independently as possible at my sister's home and 2. that exercise really does matter.
Any ideas, before the breakdown of communication between him and my sister/brother-in-law, becomes irreparable? What can we do to motivate him?
I was diagnosed with severe heart failure a few years ago (E/F 20%) four years ago. It has since improved to 60% (normal) with meds and exercise. It is not an automatic death sentence.
Maybe back off a bit from your Dad, it is his choice after all and just remind him how much you love him for what he has done in the past for you and your sister.
There is help and totally taking over someones life even if its done with love.
Maybe wait for him to ask for help? what did he do before this heart diagnosis ? he's not going to start exercising if he never did before.
The man is 80, he needs his age respected , it may not have been the wisest thing for him to agree to give up his independence and have his own daughter look after him.
Would he prefer a home? or help in his own space?
There is a lot your post tells us and yet misses out so much to be able to guide you all.
Take care
My Dad { step } is 85 and lives independently , he has his own warden assisted flat and help when he asks { rare } for it
in reply to
The decision was 'taken' from Dad about living independently - he gave up his council flat, and there's no way we could afford a care home, and I have no idea what the alternatives are.
I'm very chilled out about most things but my sister and dad are literally taking verbal chunks out of each other daily. This situation is taking its toll on all of us, my mental health has hit an all-time low and I've never seen Dad so down as he was today.
The problem is before Dad did nothing - he'd come food shopping once a week but other than that sat and watched tv all day, and certainly never exercised.
in reply to
Then you do have a struggle on your hands, all I can think of you doing is to all sit around and talk out this situation.
I really feel for you as your love for your Dad shines out, but this cannot continue and help is needed, even citizens advice maybe a start.
Are you claiming all you can to help? your Dad and sister can get financial help that may ease a few problems.
Love is love but it can bring with it head and heart ache
You are in my thoughts.
in reply to
They have all the relevent benefits & financial help etc, as far as I am aware.
I'm seen as the 'good' daughter, I'm the oldest & very easy going, the complete opposite to my sister, which adds extra tension between us two. I don't live with them so limited as to what I can physically do but I try to help out as much as possible with Dad's Dr's & hospital appointments, going shopping with him, that sort of thing. I did try to point out the potholes that the situation could produce, but as the saying goes - everyone else knows best!
It looks like he's already made some sensible lifestyle changes, and has done well to lose the weight! I'd be inclined to celebrate and encourage this!
It's no doubt been a big adjustment with some overwhelm involved, between a diagnosis to digest, no longer living independently, learning to live in another man's house, changing his diet... maybe back off on the exercise to let him adjust a bit more... with the better weather coming he might enjoy a wee walk now and then.
My granda used to love the bowls, and my grandpa is a keen gardener which keeps him busy enough... there might be something he enjoys like this?
I'll sound him out tomorrow. I really think he needs to chat to people who are experiencing this outside of family, so he knows that there's something worth fighting for
My condition has improved over 4 years from the initial problem. It does require participation in the form of "taking back control" though. We want him to have a similar improvement.
Hello
I agree and the replies you have had so far all have valid points
I can understand how you feel and your Sister and Brother in law yet even though I am not 80 if I try and look at it from your Dads point of view as if any of us are lucky enough to get to that age how does he feel now maybe this is what he wants how he wants his last few years to be as at 80 he is wise enough to know how important exercise is
Maybe it is time to calmly sit down with your Dad altogether and tell him how worried you all are how you want him about for as long as possible but then because you love him so much you want to know what he wants and whatever that is you will respect his wishes
It will not be easy for you as you will feel upset if he replies he just wants to leave things as they are but getting annoyed and frustrated with him is neither how you all want to spend and have memories of in these later years
Have you looked for these activity centres where older people meet up maybe not exercise but do things together have things in common things like this can sometimes give them more incentive to them do more
You would all regret if communication became irreparable and something happened to him so I really think a calm talk asking what he wants and supporting him in whatever that is could be the way you have to deal with this
I will put you a link on for the BHF exercises you could suggest just 10 mins a day to your Dad doing the bits that he feels he can manage you never know if he started simple he again might feel encouraged to do more
Good luck and I hope as a family you can all work through this
If so try and get him to go not just for the exercise (even if it is limited for him) but for the support and encouragement he will get from the other people and NHS staff there, (also not forgetting the power of a good natter with others).
He will also possibly people around his own age, for example my friends dad who is 87 still goes to the gym twice a week and his heart attack was 10 years ago.
As well as trying to get him on here I was also recommend pumping marvellous the heart failure charity.
Could you possibly have a chat with your father's doctor, and explain your concerns? Or if nothing else write to the doctor, they can't discuss the patient with you unless they have permission, but you can outline your concerns and ask if they could talk to him. I occasionally resorted to this when looking after my mum.
Hi BearCarer, what you and your sister are going through isn't easy. You don't mention your mother so I am assuming she is no longer alive, or at least with your dad. It sounds to me like he may be depressed, and this probably started before his heart problems were diagnosed. But, you might want to consider he has made a choice that he doesn't want to struggle on if he is not happy. Try to talk to him and don't criticise hime for his choices, tell him you and your sister are not ready to be without him, but please don't give him a guilt trip. As we get older we become more resigned to life and death, it is no longer the fear that we had when we were younger, so if dying is what he wants, help him and you and your sister, to enjoy the rest of his life, you never know, once the pressure is off, he might just change his attitude.
It sounds very much as if your Daddy's feeling scared, BearCarer, and of a generation who probably won't admit it to his two loving daughters. He's been the 'strong' one his whole life and now has to depend on the two girls he's looked after since they were born and isn't feeling able enough to do that just now. That would make anyone fed-up and feeling down.
I think part of it is that he needs to feel needed, if you know what I mean. Just a trick or two, but is there anything you could ask his advice on (even if you don't need it!), silly things like how to stop a door squeaking or the best stuff to use to keep the windows shining or the best oil to use in the car. My Dad LOVED to be able to give advice to us. When we went out for walks (rarely!) I'd ask him what a particular flower was or a type of bird - he was actually very knowledgeable about things like that but we never really appreciated it until he got older.
You're in a very difficult situation at the moment (as the 'good' daughter), desperately worrying about your Dad and trying to help him, but also trying to be a go-between with your sister and him. Can you take him out for a day, even to a local beauty spot or a cafe for a cuppa? I know he can't walk far (my own Dad had terrible knee problems) but it's nice just to sit on a bench and watch the world go by with a flask of tea and a sandwich.
Please stay in touch and let us know how you get on, I'm sure we'll all be thinking about you. Carol x
hi Hidden sorry to hear about your Dads diagnosis and his outlook. The term heart failure is shocking in itself and sounds like a death sentence. Until my husband was diagnosed I did think heart failure meant someone didn’t have long left to live! Your Dad might be feeling depressed after his diagnosis. It sounds like he has made some fantastic health changes, so he is trying but I know it can be frustrating as a carer to see your loved one not trying as hard as you think they should be. I’ve had issues with this myself especially recently (I had a post titled “feeling let down” which you could have a look at) and I got fantastic advice from both sides of things. My husband has said he hates feeling like a patient and everyone reminding him how ill he is. Your Dad might feel similar and not want exercise being turned into another sort of treatment or therapy as he’s already doing so many other things for his heart condition. If you pitch it as something enjoyable, like a family walk in the sunshine, rather than something he must do for his heart, he might exercise for the sake of exercising and enjoyment. Be patient with him and praise him for the changes he has already made.
I am 85 and was diagnosed with heart failure a year ago, plus I have a degenerative spine, breast cancer, and a large hiatus hernia which has gone into my stomach. Please get your dad to exercise - it does help I do about 20 minutes on my exercise bike, plus a walk in the park, gradually building up time taken. I know it's not easy and you do get days when you feel depressed but I feel sure dad will feel much better if he does some exercise. I wish him and all the family lots of luck. Miracles can happen you know. God bless.
I hope something here helps? It's self evident you are all doing your best in frustrating and difficult circumstances with limited options and that there's a lot of love.
I'm coming from a place of trying to second guess something of what he might be feeling? How he might be making sense of, or relating to, the changes in the context of his lifetime. Because I don't know any of you, please forgive me if I'm way off. .
I'm hearing "we care" and "we're scared" and "we know what to prioritise to get what we want." I'm not hearing "we respect his choices" nor "we empathise with how he's feeling."
I think I would be feeling angry at being treated like an infant to the extent that I had no choice to stay in my own home. I'd be feeling betrayed, let down and resentful at society, the council, my body, my heart and probably others too.
It's pretty invasive for your sister's household to have someone come to live with them, even a cherished father. I think your description of her current reality not meeting her expectations is something she needs to take responsibility for. She has my empathy, my crystal ball is crap too. 🔮🤷
It must be still more unsettling being displaced at the ripe old age of 80, losing your safe place called home, dumped on family, and then being told what to do and how to live by the very children whose nappies you were changing once upon a time, your time actually. As the parent we're geared up to be carers, teachers, facilitators and guides not to be treated like infants. I think I would struggle massively with the mindset shift of others, and my own to accept a 180 degree turnaround. Your Dad could probably run the course "Parent to Powerless in one badly labelled diagnosis."
I've no idea if this relates, and many men I've known don't know what they're feeling or how to access or deal with their emotions. To them, feelings are scary things to be avoided, so they distract by cracking jokes, using hobbies, interests. Some are drawn to them cos they can avoid their feelings too. It's easier than doing the deep work. (Let's get real, for people on benefits, there's insufficient money for basic survival let alone hobbies so maybe even those options are removed?) If people have experienced trauma in their lives they've often survived by shutting down so for them, any uncomfortable emotional awareness is a creator of overwhelming discomfort. When feelings leak, they respond by having outbursts until they can stoically sit on the lid of their Pandora's box and shut down the scary stuff. Maybe something like this is what's going on for him?
Add to that, it's a dreadfully named diagnosis (another piece of evidence of NHS gaslighters in charge,) for what's not a "get to meet the grim reaper" event. I read an article somewhere aimed at medics suggesting it's time to change the label from this terrifying name to one that accurately reflects the reality.
For me, longevity isn't everything. Quality of life is a thing too, and we each have our own boundaries around that. Right now I'm acutely aware of the extent of damage to quality of life as people with Long vir-us are discussing their options, hopes and fears after 3 years of little, and predominantly zero, medical diagnosis or treatment. It seems there's a point where the prospective outcome is too low for an individual's threshold. So I think, while it takes courage to have those discussions, it's also honouring their truth. It's beyond painful for me, so I try to be fully present and hold a strong presence for them as they work through what's considered a taboo to reach their own conclusions. I ask questions to clarify. I think it's absolutely vital not to express any personal opinion about their circumstances. I imagine myself as a sort of listening-sponge-mirror. I just listen and repeat what they say so that they can get to hear themselves without judgement. I try to use their exact words. If I'm asked for an opinion I make it very clear that my choices are for me and theirs are for them and that I'm just someone who cares not a qualified professional.
I wonder too about how he feels in today's society? We don't really have a society now. We exist predominantly as avatars and accounts designed to shift money from people into the coffers of multi-billionaires. The world as it exists now is not (IMO) a very nice place compared to how it was 30 to 50 years ago when people did the right thing because they cared about others. Nobody needed ethics or a pile of paperwork. Everybody knew X family was good at X and Y's household would know someone to help. Maybe he doesn't want to carry on just to witness more destruction and cruelty? Maybe his definition of what's acceptable or tolerable is not being recognised? Maybe it's grief that needs addressing before anything else: bereavement? situational loss? effects of political policies? (I'm thinking that in my youth, politicians were typically held to account, where dishonesty was exposed it meant they were reviled and kicked out by all parties. People took to the streets. Nowadays, it seems to me, younger people are more interested in photos and who wears what landfill than in upholding society's values. Older people are acutely aware that somewhere beyond what used to be grass verges full of wildlife, there's a sparkling mountain of false eyelashes and nails, plastic unicorns, skateboards and sea slicks of polypropylene string and nappies. We were lied to about everything from antibiotics to Teflon. The hypocrisy of the millenials and their cult of psychopath worship is painful to witness.) Maybe he's kayo carrying this burden?
As a child, the elderly were revered, as someone on the cusp I'm gutted by ageism, treating those who have done a lifetime of work as if they have lost their value. I have to say, if this is the way of the world going forwards, I'm so over it!
Maybe he was ill from a certain vi-rus ( or even a-symptomatic) and is among the millions suffering the "long vi-rus" version, in which case physical activity causes setbacks and is counter productive. (I know this experience first hand. So how to survive is to NOT exercise!)
I would stop attacking his choices (which implies superiority) and prioritise understanding his perspective. What underpins his map of the world? What's guiding his decisions? What does he think about various things generally? What opinions does he hold? What insights can he offer? What's changed?
When you have explored where he's coming from, then maybe you can find ways to invite him beyond what he perceives as his place in his map of his world? Re-empower him.
And if the painful truth is he's had enough, which is what happened with one of my parents, then I think letting them know that you'll support them in their choices is freeing for them.
I'm guessing you don't want someone else to make your decisions for you? And I'm guessing you want to be
free to make your own choices? And that is the same for me, and everyone else too including your Dad.
I would leave him be and stop arguing with him. I would try and make it seem like any decisions he makes are his own and would really stop pushing him to exercise. He is 80 yrs of age and will not be too happy with been told what to do at this late stage of his life and is likely to be grumpy (as is prelevant in older people anyway) with his present situation. I would hate to be 80yrs old and dependent on any of my children or relatives as indeed I think would most people here. Any form of independent living would be much better for all involved. Try and get advice on this.
Oh bless him. It sounds as if he is having difficulty accepting this and has become depressed given his age. When l was diagnosed with my condition, l thought my life was over, but l couldn’t have been more wrong, Give him time to come to terms with it all and give him lots of love and kindness which, at this moment in time, is more important than anything. Don’t rush him. He needs more time. He has had to endure a complete life change, which is difficult at 80, especially losing his independence. Please tell him he is not alone and there are many of us who have this condition and it is not terminal. Hope this helps you all as it is a very worrying time.
I am male, 74 and have been living with Heart Failure for 10 years, EF 29% after an MI and cardiac arrest. I remember the worries I had about how long would I live and was lucky enough to find a Phase 4 rehab group, mostly men with similar issues and run by a male Physio. It was clear to me that exercise was helping all of us but the best therapy was being able to talk to other men of all ages with a similar condition. Sharing our stories somehow made the condition easier to live with. Your dad may respond just to meeting other men of a similar age or with some condition that is life limiting - old age is one of those. I worked for a Hospice before retiring and we opened a 'Man Shed' to encourage mainly bereaved men to get together and just do something, but the result was they had other men to talk to which was the main purpose of the exercise. The old cliche that men don't talk but they are OK just doing things works. There is now a national organisation doing just this and you can search to see if there is one near you at menssheds.org.uk . Your dad is likely bereaved as he sounds like he has lost a lot, health, lifestyle, home. If you can find a Man Shed somewhere near you there would be someone there who could suggest a way of getting your dad to give it a try. Good Luck.
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