Dairy milk may lower cholesterol and reduce heart disease risk.

[seasider18]

As the old advert used to say Milk is good for you. Unfortunately butter is not.

medicalnewstoday.com/articl...

[BongoBaggins]

Thanks but I won't put my life in the hands of 'may'. I'll wait for a 'will' or a 'won't'.

[Hidden]

I think anyone with heart disease should think very seriously about reducing their diary intake as much as possible, I certainly have. We were never meant to consume it anyway, that whole advertising campaign was a con by the milk marketing board.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Have you cut out grain products? I'd definitely recommend doing that as we definitely didn't evolve to eat them and they are inflammatory.

Personally I think dairy is fine for those who are not intolerant of it.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

What, you mean like beer?? Come on now. Seriously there are a lot of things we didn't "evolve" to eat, including Dairy, so I find your comment a bit conflicting. I think the high saturated fat content of diary products is a fairly obviously bad product for people with heart disease. I am sure there are some who recommend a high fat diet and no carbohydrates at all but they are in a very small minority.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Beer is indeed problematic. There are many benefits to beer as a fermented product, but you can't escape those inflammatory wheat proteins.

I'm in the low carb camp. I don't agree that saturated fat is problematic, but polyunsaturated fats definitely are as they oxidise very easily. The fat/cholesterol model of heart disease has long been superceded by the science but there are far too many legacy interests for establishments to move on from the bad science they have been promoting for 50 years plus. It is slowly happening though. There is a shift occurring.

Consume grains and grain products if you like, I believe in individual choice, but let's not pretend that it's healthy to do so. And I acknowledge that for many people dairy can be very troublesome.

I still consume some foods that I know aren't particularly great for me so I'm not going to preach to others, but I don't like to hear of people eating harmful foods out of ignorance or blind adherence to the food pyramid.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Maybe you could put forward some evidence from reliable sources?

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Sure. A good starting point is the writings of retired cardiologist, Dr William Davis. I would also recommend watching "The Cholesterol Conundrum" by Ivor Cummins on YouTube. It's a little hard going but high on fact and low on opinion.

It was these two thing in particular that resulted in me doing hundreds of hours of research since my heart attack last year, and led me to believe that much of the mainstream advice we are given is more interested in sustaining agribusiness interests than the health of individuals.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Mmmmm. I have looked into the former before, and personally I think he is way off the mark. Anyone who recommends a Keto diet over a proper balanced one is flying in the face of all sense and recognised dietary advice and personally I would take no notice of him. As for the other guy I think he is mostly talking about processed products. As you say each to his own, for me, 32 months since having a 96% blockage in my LAD and 50% (unstented) in my RCA I have been following a low fat plant based diet with very little dairy and no meat just fish, and have never felt better or fitter for my age and I eat tons of unrefined carbs. As far as I am concerned it is my diet and exercise regime that has kept me from further problems.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

To many a keto diet is lots of fatty meat, but that's a misnomer. It should involve lots of veg. It's a diet that closely approximates that of our ancestors, who didn't survive on a diet rich in carbohydrates. I eat meat, fish, large quantities of veg, eggs, dairy and nuts. A small quantity of fruit. I avoid grains, potatoes, processed food and seed oils. I make sure my food consists of nutrient dense options like kale, eggs and organ meats. I'm aware of phytates and lectin and how they can hamper nutrient absorption. I eat a broad spectrum of colouful vegetables.

I've read your profile and you've had a tough time. Do you think these arterial blockages are just a fact of life or do you think there's more to it than that? I'm in the latter camp. I was a little overweight but thought I was eating healthily until I had a heart attack at 48. I don't assign this to bad luck and poor genes. My parents haven't had heart attacks.

The official guidance still followed is based around Ancel Keys work and hypothesis from several decades back which has been shown to be little more than fraud for which he was handsomely rewarded. I take offence to individuals being blamed for the obesity crisis when they are being given bad information. The route to a healthy weight should not involve being hungry all the time, and it does not have to.

The biggest test about whether your diet is helping or not is to see whether your heart disease is progressing with a CAC test. Unfortunately the NHS rarely carries these out, and perversely, private scans in the UK appear far more expensive than in the US. I think we should be screened beyond a certain age for calcium build up, because for many this is an avoidable illness, but not while the dietary advice being given is poor. I have spoken to people who have verifiably reversed their plaque buildup through diet alone, yet officially we are told this is a progressive disease.

Whatever path a person chooses they have to be confident it is informed. I've chosen to risk my life on being right, which I prefer to risking my life on the advice of the medical profession, which history has shown gets it wrong quite often. Either way, I respect your decision. It sounds like you have seen much of the evidence I have seen but we've reached different conclusions - which is fine.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Well, the Keto diet you are describing does not fit the description I have always read and been told about, so I would say you are not actually on one. I am firmly of the belief that for most people a balanced diet with everything in moderation with everything cooked from fresh, no processed food at all, is the one most likely to provide everything the body needs, and I think this is also the view of most medics and dietitians. I have to say I take issue with your criticism of the medical profession, whom I personally believe I owe both my life and more recently sight to. My father dies at 55 of exactly the same thing as I had at 60, had he had the benefit of today's medical science he would probably have had a lot more years of life. As far as how we all must decide goes, all I can say is that I spent the best part of my life up to age 60 eating a traditional diet containing lots of meat, dairy and the associated saturated fat. I have never been overweight and always exercised, but despite all this still could have very easily expired, as a lot of people sadly do. So, something had to change, obviously. To be honest I look at the things some people stuff into their mouths, how overweight and unfit they are, and I wonder how they are possibly still standing. maybe some people like me have a propensity towards atherosclerosis and it would have happened anyway, who knows? Maybe the fact the sites of the blockages having now been opened up would mean I would be fine for years to come no matter what I did? As you say the only way to tell is undergo some form of test/check, but this is not easily available to me, and even if it were I can't really see the point, as I am doing everything I can to try and prevent any recurrences. I certainly do not believe for one minute the controversial opinions of a US ex-cardiologist or an engineer, against the overwhelming opinion of the mainstream medical profession that you mistrust for some, if I may say, odd reason. As I said, all I can say is that at the moment, 32 months after my stents were fitted, I feel as fit as a fiddle, and I mean 25 mins for a 5K at age just shy of 63 fit. I put this down to the plant based diet I am on, regular, vigorous exercise, together with 80mg of Atorvastatin and an Aspirin every day, in other words a combination of modern medicine along with a big effort on my part. If it goes south, well at least I have done my bit, as far as I am aware. I might add slightly off topic that it might help me and a whole lot of other people if the powers that be stopped arsing about and got the Park runs back up and running!! Anyway rant over back to the 6 string........

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

It sounds like your assumptions on keto are completely wrong, but hey ho. Everything in moderation means a few cigarettes and a little bit of crack each day won't do you any harm. It's a tired mantra people like to reel out when they stop thinking. I think my dietician tried that one on me alongside the lie that when you eat less your stomach shrinks and you stop feeling hungry. Anyway, best of luck in the plan you are following. I wish you well.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I think the comment on fags and crack is a bit silly Phil to be honest, you know what I meant.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Fair point, I take it back. I think the thing I have learned about wheat is that the proteins in it are inflammatory to everybody. With most people it's very low grade and goes largely unnoticed, but it doesn't mean it isn't causing plaques to be laid down. By that measure, even in moderation it carries some risk, and it's one of the reasons I've completely given it up. I have other health issues I'm trying to get under control so it would be fair to accuse me of taking this to the nth degree.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

No worries. I didn't like to comment but from your profile it does appear you have one or two things going on, so maybe these are having a big influence to be fair. At the end of the day, none of us, either with diagnosed CVD, or those where it is lurking in wait, have any idea how or if it will progress and we have to make our own judgements. Still not giving up beer anyway

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I've been off beer for several months, but if I'm going to ease up, the odd real ale will slip back in because cider doesn't cut it.

[seasider18 in reply to Hidden]

Not many things are older than beer as it goes back to 5BC in Iran

[Hidden in reply to seasider18]

In evolutionary terms that is no time at all. Interestingly we've probably been drinking alcohol much longer than that from rotting fruit. Similarly we've only eaten grain products for about 10,000 years, and we have evolved very little in that time. This is before we take into account that much of the wheat eaten as recently as up to the 1950s is very different from the wheat consumed today. The same can be said of corn.

[Qualipop]

Oh what a shame; when I saw that I thought it meant Cadbury's Dairy Milk

[080311 in reply to Qualipop]

Me too 😂😂😂

[Alison_L in reply to 080311]

And me!!

[Hidden in reply to Qualipop]

I used to like a bit of CDM. Since joining this club I have tried to cut out things with "a pint and a half" in them, and also stuff containing palm oil. You can get some fantastic tasting choccy these days (Try Montezumas range) that is way better for you and the environment, and once you go back to the other stuff you will realise it wasn't that good anyway, certainly not these days due to all the crap they now put in it.

[Alison_L in reply to Hidden]

I used to love a lot of CDM, now I just have some occasionally. Well, I gave up alcohol 6 years ago, and smoking 3 years ago... a girl's got to have some enjoyment!

[Hidden in reply to Alison_L]

Very True. But I would recommend trying a bit of Montezumers. CDM has palm oil in it, we really should be trying not to consume products with palm oil in.

[Alison_L in reply to Hidden]

Will do. Just had a look at ingredients of some cadbury's shortcake, and palm oil is the 3rd ingredient! I hadn't realised that. xx

[Hidden in reply to Alison_L]

It's in all sorts, but there are plenty of alternatives.

[080311 in reply to Hidden]

Have a granddaughter 17 went through her Mum and Dads cupboards 18 months ago insisted all items with palm oil were out of bounds! She is very much into the environment, 2 eldest both eco warriors! One here one in Australia. So went through my cupboards too😂 had no idea how bad it is for the planet.

[Hidden in reply to 080311]

Good on her!!! Awful stuff.