Anti Statin Agenda: Being new to... - British Heart Fou...

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Anti Statin Agenda

Heythrop51
Heythrop51
132 Replies

Being new to statins I decided to search this forum, and HU's Cholesterol one, with the search term of "statin".

I have never seen such negativity. What I cannot understand is why as it seems to have stabilised both the cholesterol level and plaque for millions both helping prevent cardiac events and extending life. Some of the claims relating to side effects are unbelievable with about the only ones not mentioned being ingrowing toenails and unwanted pregnancy. So why all this negativity? If there was a new cholesterol lowering drug on the market I would find it easy to believe it had been orchestrated!

132 Replies
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Thatwasunexpected

Sadly, some people will always go for a good conspiracy theory, especially where medicine is concerned. You only need to see what's happened with vaccines, even when the whole thing has been thoroughly debunked and the person who started it struck off, to know that - "well, obviously, they WOULD strike him off, wouldn't they, to hush it all up!!!"

Yes, statins can have side effects (so can the humble aspirin) and, for a very few people, those side effects mean they're not suitable. But the whole "Big Pharma pushing them to make billions off prescriptions" story is so full of holes it makes the Titanic look seaworthy.

Incidentally, I can't speak for unwanted pregnacies but - since being on statins for the past 12 months - I've failed to get pregnant no matter how hard I try. I suppose the fact I'm a 52 year old bloke might be a factor in that, but can they really rule out the statins as not contributing at all to that failure???

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Deano_H

Strange you should mention about not being able to get pregnant because of the statins, because I too have failed to get pregnant. I’m 100% sure it’s the statins fault and not that I’m a bloke you know.

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Scout2017
Scout2017
in reply to Deano_H

I've already got enough kids... To be honest if I thought they'd prevent pregnancy I'd double my dose...

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Thatwasunexpected

This side effect might push Brexit off the front page of the Daily Fail tomorrow! 😀

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Thatwasunexpected

Maybe we need to do some more in depth research before we jump to conclusions.

Hands up any blokes on here who HAVE managed to get pregnant while taking statins......

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Lezzers

😂

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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to Thatwasunexpected

Hands up any woman too😉

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VelvetSky
VelvetSky
in reply to Milkfairy

Hi, I have tried statins twice but stopped because of side effects, could they still be the reason I am failing to get pregnant?

Mind you it might be just because I’m 72!

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SpiritoftheFloyd

Oh I do love taking part in surveys. It's a No from me 👎

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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to SpiritoftheFloyd

Is that a no to surveys or a no to getting pregnant?

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SpiritoftheFloyd

ha ha - the latter

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Thatwasunexpected

At the top level of the Forum there is a Polls option but nothing on how to set it up. We do need a larger sample to allow proper analysis of the data!

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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to MichaelJH

We also need to see all the raw data to ensure it has been correctly analysed and the interpretation of the results has no bias to ensure that no pregnancies have been missed or gone unrecognised as stomach cramp.

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Henry20

More worrying is if there have been spontaneous pregnancies!

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Surreychica_1

😂

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HectorsDad

Your stats are all wrong. Clearly the statins are bringing on early menopause in middle age men😁

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to MichaelJH

Sadly it did not. However, no Brexit but instead Elton John's own story and the messed up investigation relating to the fantasist Nigel. I didn't waste my money but glanced at the front page, to check, in Waitrose.

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Sillyfroggy

I’ve been pregnant a couple of times. Admittedly it was 14 and 15 years ago, and I wasn’t on statins. Still, maybe Big Pharma put statins into the ice-lollies I ate.

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to Sillyfroggy

Shame on you....eating ice lollies! 😂

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Lezzers

Now I'm worried they are the cause of my husbands bunionettes!

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Thatwasunexpected

Almost certainly, but the drug companies suppressed that effect :D

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Shockedwithstent

Well said -:) I Totally agree. My mother ended up with a stroke when she decided to stop her medication after 3 weeks

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Thatwasunexpected

The problem is, stopping or changing any meds because you suffer bad side effects yourself is fair enough, but the sort of publicity that these theories generate has a lot of people stopping "because they might", and that's absolutely not a good thing!

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Thatwasunexpected

I recently read an article that doctors estimate that statin non- compliance might be as high as 50%!

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Lezzers

I completely agree with you. Nobody denies statins do cause problems for some people but the vast majority of people take them with few or no issues. But when people start using language that is designed to stop others from taking them, that is when it becomes unacceptable. Surely this forum is for sharing experiences not forcing an opinion.

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rowroann
rowroann
in reply to Lezzers

Hi there, just reading the comments regarding statins, I have been taking statins for more than 15 years, I have never had a problem, a side effect nothing, in fact I am not sure what they are supposed to do, I just know my cardiologist put me on them many years ago.

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to rowroann

Hi rowroann, in a nutshell statins lower cholesterol & stabilise plaque. However, its shocking that you've never been told why you're taking them. My husband was fully informed as to why Papworth wanted him on them and possible side effects. If you're still under a cardiologist can you ask him/her why you're taking them? If not definitely ask your GP.

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dickielex

There was a good TV programme recently on the anti-vaccination campaigns which explored the rise in anti-science and anti-expert hysteria. Two quick points. Firstly these conspiracy theories make it necessary to believe that hundreds of thousands- maybe millions- of health professionals keep terrible secrets about the dangers of the meds they research and prescribe. As a community we know a great many health professionals, trust them, like them and know that they and fellow scientifically trained and thoroughly decent folk world-wide would not give us meds that are damaging to us. Secondly I fear that forums like this very valuable one are partly responsible for spreading un-scientific - and anti-scientific- rumours about therapies and medication. The InterNet is a perfect platform for the dissemination of false diagnoses, generalisations and hocus-pocus as well as outright lies. None of us can claim that we've never been taken in.

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mikealford

Statins like Marmite, for me unbearably debilitating. When i research i find very dubious evidence to support longevity. Yes they lower cholesterol, but will that make us live longer? The conclusion i come to scientifically, is, well no evifence to support that, just the assumption that it automatically follows.! But do i want to die from my body screwed by medicines? No. I have watched friends die from kidney failure from heart medication designed to keep their heart from strain. It would have been a better life and death from heart failure. But then I'm a scientist, i understand the statistics, i don't follow the pack- i follow the evidence. So far longevity is left to chance, and statins seem unable shorten the odds. So for me, I'm out.

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to mikealford

I don't think it's a case of following a pack, statins work for some they don't work for others. My husband has been taking statins for 15+ plus years, our friend has been taking them since the 90's, neither have had any problems with with them. Apart from myself not being a scientist & therefore unable to follow statistics, as the wife of someone living with heart failure believe me dying of it is not much fun either!

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mikealford
mikealford
in reply to Lezzers

Yes i agree, neither form of dying is good. You make an informed choice. But which way do you jump when you don't understand the evidence? You are left guessing? It is difficult to know?

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to mikealford

Yes, it is difficult to know but I think most people are able to understand statistics & research without having to be a scientist. If people decide statins are the route for them it's not a case of following the pack its more a case they feel statins are right for them in the same way not taking them is right for you.

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Dolphin14

Yes, I've seen people die from both.

They are both difficult deaths

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Dolphin14
Dolphin14
in reply to Lezzers

My husband has been on statins for 22 years no issues.

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rowroann
rowroann
in reply to Dolphin14

Nor have I had any problems with statins and I have been taking these for 20 years, maybe longer.

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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to mikealford

What is important is making the decision following a review of the evidence

An informed choice.

Quality of life is also very important the only judge of this is the person's whose life is affected.

Sometimes we and our healthcare professionals are faced with decisions that lead to a Hobson's choice.

Chemotherapy drugs are known to cause heart failure and microvascular dysfunction in some people. This admittely is perhaps an extreme example.

Ultimately it is the individual's choice. All care is offered none is compulsory

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Dolphin14

How do you know the death from heart failure would have been better? Just curious.

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Prada47
Prada47
in reply to mikealford

Hi

Just a question are you sure that the Heart Medication caused the Kidney Failure you quote ?? Kidney Failure through Heart Medication is quite rare, but I would concede that some Heart Medication can cause Kidney Failure BUT if you are taking a Medication that may cause Kidney Failure you are monitored very carefully, and the Medication would be stopped long before Death from Kidney Failure.

Well according to my Heart Failure Professional that would be the case and I do trust her and my GP

Oh and I do take Statins along with Bisoprolol, Entresto, Eplenerone , Asprin, etc etc

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jerry12953

I think what people object to is over-prescribing. When the GP says "here, take these" to the patient when the patient feels 100% well there is bound to be a backlash.

I know that was the case with me.

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Thatwasunexpected

The problem is, that's not over-prescribing (as it's often claimed to be). The primary use of statins is protection, so it's far better to be taking them before your arteries clog to the point that you stop feeling 100% well.

They still have benefits once the plaque is there but their biggest benefits are before you get to that point. It's a bit like if you don't want kids right now then refusing contraception because you "feel 100% not pregnant" would be a little bit idiotic really!

Unless, it seems, you're a bloke taking statins :P

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jerry12953

It's difficult to explain that to someone who feels 100% healthy. There is a feeling that the medical profession wants to see as many people as possible on some kind of medication, for whatever reason.

I felt like that until I started getting chest pain; now I'm more willing to compromise.

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fergusthegreat

Actually the biggest benefits of statins are their ability to stabilise, possibly even regress coronary plaque as well as reducing inflammation.

They are therefore far more effective for people who have pre existing heart disease and not for primary prevention in people without evidence of atherosclerosis.

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Hidden

Nearly every medication has an adverse effect on someone. I had issues with Ibrufen before heart medication made it a no-no. Likewise antihistamines have given me palpitations. Friends have also had issues with common drugs like Aspirin and Penicillin. This does not make them bad drugs just not suitable for some.

I mentioned a poll earlier and I would really like one on statins with a number of choices to get a better picture. Unfortunately as in all things the people that shout loudest are those who have issues. In my working life I dealt with BT and other telecoms providers for clients. Sometimes service was poor but other times they went above and beyond. But nearly every review is a complaint as few praise good service!

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Heythrop51

Yes a poll would be really good! What was in the post you answered to that was deleted?

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Heythrop51

Basically someone had side effects with statins and by default this meant they were a bad drug, no it's, no buts. I cannot eat Chinese food with MSG in it as the MSG causes chest pains, palpitations and nausea but do not say that because of this that no one else should eat it.

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Surreychica_1

Well I have a very low cholesterol level but was still prescribed statins. They made me feel terrible and my joints ached like hell so I took myself off of them.

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Brandylover

How long you been off ?. Any doubts now ?

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Surreychica_1

About three weeks. Yes my joints are a lot better, still get a bit of pain but nothing like what I had when I was on the Statins. I was not on them long. Since I had the stent put in which was on the 9th July.

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Brandylover

Ok thanks for that . Im having some doubts about pills im taking and why . And decided to start looking for opinions such as yours . Cheers .

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Surreychica_1

Yes every joint ached. Knees, hips, shoulders, feet the lot!

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Osidge

From the John Hopkins Arthritis Centre:

“As you correctly imply, statins are indeed associated with muscle pain and inflammation. However, they are not known to be associated with worsening joint pain. The pain from osteoarthritis comes and goes unpredictably. Since osteoarthritis and high cholesterol (and therefore statin use) are both very common, it is not surprising that sometimes the pain from OA will get worse (or better !) while someone is taking statins.”

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Surreychica_1

I do not have high cholesterol though!! In fact it is low. Just below the lowest figure. So not sure why they put me on them. I shall ask when I see or if I see a cardiologist again!!

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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to Surreychica_1

Hi

Statins thought also to reduce inflammation and stabilise plaque in the arteries.

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Surreychica_1

Inflammation of what! I have never had high cholesterol. I will need to ask a cardiologist. My doctor didnt think it was a bad choice to come off of them!

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Surreychica_1

Inflammation of the inner walls of the arteries. The body then tries to counteract this by laying down plaque thus treating the damage by creating different damage!

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Surreychica_1

Oh right. I have never had a conversation with any cardiologist. I am only learning why I was giving pepcid. I thought it was because I may suffer heart burn. Turns out it is to stop any bleed caused by acid. As I said I have had treatment but have yet to have a conversation with any of he cardiologist I have seen. Not even to take notice of the symptoms I was getting. The first and the third cardiologist I saw were not in the slightest interested. Hardly looked in my direction at all. It is all a bit disillusioning to be honest.

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Surreychica_1

I might start taking them again and see how the pains in my joints go. I certainly suffered a great deal with pain even though it is said it is muscle pain they cause. I was in agony at times but it has stopped and got better and better since stopping the statins. I know quite a few people who have stopped taking them due to the after affects.

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Lezzers

Maybe you could ask to try a different statin, different doseage, different times to take them etc, it can be a bit trial & error to get it right. Or they may just not be for you but definitely a good idea to speak to your cardiologist about them

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MrsP70

Including me I have tried and tried but am unable to tolerate them

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Hatchjd

Surreychica like you I had stents inserted July and my cholesterol has always been normal. With normal cholesterol levels I still had 80% and 90% blockage in 2 arteries and 40% in another so reckon mine needs to be even lower. My angio showed plaque surface rupture with evidence of bleed. I was told all plaque is not equal and that the risk of HA is not always about the % of blockage but how stable the plaque cap/surface is.

Statins help firm up the plaque surface and reduce the plaque volume reducing the risk of further cardiac events. I originally started on Atorvastatin 80mg, which was reduced to 40mg then stopped due to abdominal and back pain. Now on a low dose of Rosuvastatin 5mg which I seem to be to tolerating. There is a lot of misinformation on statins on the web and statistics can be interpreted to say what you want them to. I was a nurse for 25 years and never met a doctor who would prescribe a medication that wasn’t considered in the patient’s best interest, statins included. That being said, everyone reacts differently and alterations are often needed. I hope this makes sense.

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Surreychica_1

Yes it does and thanks for the response. I am was only on 20mg, so perhaps I will get the cardiologist to prescribe a lower dose.

Alas I have no idea of what if any the other arteries state are or is, because as I have said I have yet to have a conversation with a cardiologist or any explanation about anything at all.

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fergusthegreat

Mate you were put on them because you have coronary heart disease that was severe enough to require a stent.

They hopefully will help to reduce the chances of needing more stents in the future but if you choose not to take them it's up to you just don't complain to the doctors if you end up back in the cath lab.

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Surreychica_1

Very true. Although I have yet to read anything good about them I do have to say. But I will look into it a bit more as I have said above I will restart them perhaps on a lower dose and see if I still get the terrible aches and pains I had when I was taking them.

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MumaLines

What dosage were you on?

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Surreychica_1

20 mg. Not very high. I am seeing my doctor tomorrow so perhaps I will get her to reduce the dosage.

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Khonkaen

It is because like many drugsthey are developed to treat the symptoms not the cause, they do have mant side effects and require long term use,so a nice cash cow. They do prevent plaque cap rupture, we are told and that is why I for one take them, following my stenting.

If I hadn't had my heart attack and had high cholesterol, which is not a critical factor anyway, I wouldn't be taking them.

Peope are anti-statin, or indeed anti-drug becasue they are a quick fix, always with side effects and there are often natural cures avaiable with no side effects, they just work a ;little slower and require a little patience.

But if you like pills, go right ahead.

Don't understand something? The quick fix is brand it "a conspiracy theory".

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to Khonkaen

Not everyone is in a position to not take meds, my husband has heart failure if he went down the route of natural cures he wouldn't survive for very long. Unfortunately, there is no cure for HF therefore he can only be treated for the symptoms not the cause. No he doesn't like taking pills but for him & a lot of other people there are no other options

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Lezzers

Once again Lezzers you are taking things personally, if you noticed I am taking statins for the same reason, I would likely die without them. The OP was that people shouldn't be against drugs like statin, but unless where there is no alternative, I think they should be avoided at all cost.

There are millions of people taking statins purly to control cholestorol, very good for the drug companies, as the return is in the $billions, perhaps £trillions, but very bad for people taking them, when there are other methods avaialble like a change in diet and lifestyle.

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to Khonkaen

I'm not taking anything personally but when you post comments such as.

Peope are anti-statin, or indeed anti-drug becasue they are a quick fix, always with side effects and there are often natural cures avaiable with no side effects, they just work a ;little slower and require a little patience." , thats generalising & I'm merely pointing out that not everyone has the option for a natural cure.

From previous posts I understood you're not happy taking statins & all Dr's are pill pushers, I was simply giving another point of view.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Lezzers

I don't think you realise what a huge problem the money-grabbing pharma industry has created, both in the UK and worldwide. Suggest you look into it and then comment further. When you find that, while there are millions of lives saved by drugs, there are millions lost and millions of others suffereing due to the big push to sell these things.

Here is a starter for you, from the a main stream media source, no less telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn...

Then look at what thalidamide was prescribed for "morning sickness" for goodness sake and then the millions like my mother who were hooked on Valium for 25 years and the damage that caused.

Kindly do some reasearch it is easy...........

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to Khonkaen

Thank you for pointing out its easy, I'm sure I'll be able to grasp it!

However, I think we'll agree to disagree on this issue.

On a kinder note, I hope your weather in Thailand is better than the UK where it seems to be constantly raining at the moment.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Lezzers

Actually we are still in Portugal and the weather here is fabulous, just got back from my 2km walk in the 25c sunshine and this is the place to be right now IMO.

In 10 days we set off for Thailand where it is 35c and humid, but we have family there, so I just have to fill the pool up and get used to it. The flights are long, uncomfortable and boring, my first time in my current condition of health. time to test out my relaxation/destressing theories.

I think you and you husband have done well over these years and hope you have many many decades to come of happy life, despite the weather.

As my dad used to joke "chin up.......and the other one"

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Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to Khonkaen

I have a friend who is currently in Lisbon and yes she has said the weather is gorgeous there.

I hope your journey to Thailand isn't too uncomfortable, my husband and flying are not compatible any more but when we used to fly his nurse always told him to immediately remove his shoes, do leg exercises whilst he's sitting but to ensure he got up and walked about frequently, not always convenient on a plane but needs must. Also, ensure you keep hydrated as flying can lower your BP.

Thank you for your comments about myself & my husband, I intend to make sure he stays around, it's taken me years to train him 😉

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Statex
Statex
in reply to Khonkaen

Just a side issue . How do you manage to get health insurance with a medical condition. My wife had Cancer 40 years ago although clear for 38 years still has difficulty obtaining insurance?

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Statex

I don't have any, never bought insurance that wasn't compulsary, I had to pay cash, £9000 all in. I had luckily just sold a cheap house in the UK and had the cash in the bank. They wanted proof of the money before they would operate on me, so lucky I could access it. PlanB was I have a £10k limit on my credit card and could borrow it back from my sister until I could sell a property.

Insurance companies aren't wealthy for no reason.

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Khonkaen

I had my blood pressure medication stopped both before OHS in June last year and again for unrelated surgery in November because of the risk of serious hypotension in conjunction with a general anesthesic.

Evolution comes about through learning. Pharmaceutical companies learnt from the Thalidomide tragedy and clinical trials have become far more rigourous since.

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Dolphin14
Dolphin14
in reply to MichaelJH

I agree

Research on long term problems obviously takes time to gather. Some people don't have time on their side.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to MichaelJH

I hate to tell you Michael, but Thalidamide is still in use today and is still deforming babies.

On the other hand I know that a cure for MRSA has existed for 10 years, but it cannot be patented, so the lab have been trying to cloak it. Trouble is anything that can be cloaked, can be uncloaked.

You guys have to understand these are not kind people.

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Khonkaen

Yes, it was reintroduced in Brazil to treat leprosy - a truly devastating disease. The problem is that it is most prevalent in the slum areas where there is little education and getting people to understand they should not reproduce whilst undergoing treatment. The current thinking is that the benefits outweigh the risks although obviously deformed babies is hard to accept.

Thousands suffer varying degrees of injury and even death in this country each year. The cause - motor vehicles. We ought to ban them using the same logic!

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to MichaelJH

Yes Micahel, if you want to be rediculous about it.

I have had a long association with reasearch scientists, where their money comes from, practices employed and the sheer arrogance of many of the people involved at many different levels.

If you look at the tobacco industry and use those people as an example, you will find that typical and that is my last word on this subject. It is a culture of arrogance that I find very distasteful.

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Osidge
Osidge
in reply to Khonkaen

And the last paragraph in that article:

“"The results of this trial – of a relatively high dose of a beta blocker given before surgery – do not mean patients stabilised on long-term beta blocker therapy will be at increased risk if they have surgery."

You see how easy it is to interpret research and come up with a wrong conclusion.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Osidge

..and your qualifiactions are?

These 800,000 people died as a result of one researcher falsifying his results and the a number of others took his word and republished them, until there was a consensus and the practice became widespread.

The pharma industry are now 100% self regulated, so basically they do what they want. Just like the banks and Arms industry and they do this by lobbying....giving money.

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Osidge
Osidge
in reply to Khonkaen

I work in clinical research for the National Institute for Health Research and the Department of Health and Social Care and currently working in the fields of dementia and cancer awareness, screening and early diagnosis. The pharma industry is not 100% self-regulated in the UK and neither are the banks.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Osidge

My associates are at the very top of their research organisation, running projects, raising the cash, etc. you need to be at the sharp end to know anything at all.

So now look at the regulators of all these major organisations, whether it be banks, arms industry, or pharma, they are appointed by governments. Governments are controlled by the lobby groups, who are wholy owned by guess who...?

If you doubt that, then ask why we are still in the EU, or why Trump can't build his wall, or why no bankers went to jail, or why we have wars every 10 minutes that the public don't want.

Time to join the dots, I think.

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Osidge
Osidge
in reply to Khonkaen

Sad

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Osidge

agree

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Osidge
Osidge
in reply to Khonkaen

I am pleased you can see the sadness and negativity of conspiracy posts such as yours. This is a place of support.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Osidge

Personally I can only move forward if I know where I stand, the same with my illness, if I know the facts I can perhaps work out some answers. It is true that some don't want the truth, it scares them and to those people I apologise.

But it doesn't make much difference to our lives really.

My approach now is to try to reduce my statin dosage, when my year is up, talk to my Cardio, of course. I will lose 2 or 3 of my tablet then anyway. According to Dr. Esselstyn, his diet gives some protection to the plaque cap, which is all I need since my cholesterol is already way too low already to need statin assistance.

We shall see if I can reason with my cardio in Thailand.

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Osidge
Osidge
in reply to Khonkaen

Perhaps Thailand has problems that the UK does not. I wish you well.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to Osidge

The main problem living in Thailand is the driving, which is a little haphazard to the untrained eye. To me I know roughly what to expect and try not to get stressed, but even after all these years, it is very hard.

But now after the HA, I must learn to chill, when cars/trucks are driving on the wrong side of the road, or worse still kids on motorbikes who have no ability at all and want to show off. That is scary.

Actually I quite like the corruption out there, it is nearly all out in the open and cheaper...and I won't say more, but you have to laugh at how obvious it is.

...and the people are so friendly, the "Land Of Smiles".

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Khonkaen

Personally I would stick with a low dose statin but it is your choice!

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to MichaelJH

It will be the choice of my Thai Cardio, I am currently on Atorvastatin 40mg and will ask for a low doseage. I think that is quite low already, as I know others are on 80mg, but will ask. I am pretty sure I drop Ticagrelor 90mg x 2 and the antacid Omeprazole after year1 and that should settle my stomach and gastric reflux/chest pain...here's hoping.

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Khonkaen

I know someone on 10mg Atorvastatin so both 10 and 20mg are lower options.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to MichaelJH

Did either have stents?

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Khonkaen

Not as far as I know. But surely as you have stents it is better than zero and relying on diet for stabilisation.

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Khonkaen
Khonkaen
in reply to MichaelJH

I don't know anyone who has stents who is on zero and will do what the cardio advises. Rupture of that cap is a death sentence.

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Osidge
Osidge
in reply to MichaelJH

I am on 10mg atorvastatin

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Osidge

I work in research and I do not see the type of behaviour you mention coming from pharmaceutical companies.

Do you have a link to the trial that used falsified data?

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Heythrop51
Heythrop51
in reply to Osidge

I am sure many researchers do the sort of work they do with a desire to help those in great need. If it was for money highly intelligent can make more money being bankers but probably would not like themselves very much!

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Stivkinh

Some people don’t care that what they believe is true and this allows them to have really low standards. Unfortunately misinformation is everywhere and until we start teaching critical thinking in schools, the conspiracy theorists will have an audience.

I’m a member of a few Facebook groups and this always crops up. Along with some crazy diets designed by vegan evangelists and other pseudoscientific nonsense I find myself constantly at odds with the other members. Amazingly I got caught up in an argument about ghosts! I was told that by disagreeing I was calling the other members liars. When your faced with that level of logic it’s impossible to have a good conversation.

Statins are revolutionary and are doing a great job of keeping us in a stable place. They are backed up by an overwhelming amount of evidence. Unfortunately all meds have side effects and the minority’s like to find easy answers.

I personally believe science is the best model we have to decide if something is true or not and the data backs up the pro statin argument not the conspiracy theorists.

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Cazz1954

Well I haven’t got pregnant or got ingrown toenails, perhaps its because I am 64 and haven’t got toe nails either

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Henry20

Hi Heythrop51

I had a couple of stents put in about 15 months ago and at that time had been taking statins for a couple of months. About 10 weeks ago the aches and pains made go to the doc and we agreed to stop the statins to see if they were the cause. They were. I'm due to go back to see him again in a few weeks.

However, in the meantime, I've been reading medical papers that I can get at that have been properly reviewed and refereed. Its left me with no doubts about their usefulness when there is a problem like a heart attack, but I'm told I need to take them for the rest of my life. Some papers I've read suggest that this can open the door to other medical problems. So do I need to take them if I have changed my lifestyle to reduce those factors to a minimum?

So this leaves me with a dilemma, find a statin that I can tolerate, if there is one; or not take them until there is something which says I need to.

So what to do? It's a choice I could do without .......

That's why I am reading and talking to as many as possible to make up my mind. I am quite surprised at what little some people know.

Henry

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Heythrop51
Heythrop51
in reply to Henry20

Hi Henry, I am new to the stain game but fairly convinced to their usefulness. Being in my second week I will leave it to the HeartStars to respond to you as they seem incredibly knowledgeable even if they are statinistas! Cheers, Mike

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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to Heythrop51

I would do the same as you at the moment as it is very early in your recovery and I wish you all the best for the future.

I would however encourage an open mind and for you to read reputable medical papers and books on all to do with heart disease to become more knowledge and for you to at least know the questions to ask of your medical professionals. Be very careful of google, a useful search tool, but you need to be a discerning consumer.

Henry

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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Henry20

Mike, aka Heythrop51, PM'd me and asked me to reply.

I had some issues with Simvastatin but a change to Atorvastatin overcame these (pains in shoulders making dressing/undressing awkward). There are a number of statins available. Simvastatin seems to have the highest rate of reported side effects and Rosuvastatin the lowest. Coincidentally they are the cheapest and dearest respectively. In addition to changing statins a reduction in dose often hells. Besides lowering cholesterol statins have two other effects. They reduce inflammation, offer a precursor to plaque formation, and stabilise any existing plaque. For these two reasons I would recommend a low maintenance dose even if you get your cholesterol in range by diet and exercise.

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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to MichaelJH

Michael

Thanks so much for the information about those two statins; invaluable information for when I discuss things with my doctor. Knowing what each statin has a reputation for helps., as I am sure that all statins are far from equal. (I just cannot trust anything I've found so far on google; doesn't have the right pedigree for me).

BTW: PM'd what does that mean please?

I've been on atorvastatin (40mg), which I came off a little while ago. I am very aware of the need to reduce inflammation, which seems to be the start of much of CAD. Knowing the cause of inflammation is one of my main objectives at the moment. I have no idea how I can tell if my insides are getting inflamed. I'd sooner not have it happening in the first place. Being able to safely control it is, to me, a second line of defence.

Anyone with any thoughts?

Henry

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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to Henry20

Ageing is the ultimate unavoidable risk factor?

PM means Private message.

3 likes
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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to Milkfairy

Yes, we all get old, but how old can we get and with what quality of life?

Thanks for the interpretation, I didn't know we could send them. I sorry if I have caused any upset; I really didn't mean to. My apologies.

Henry

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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to Henry20

Henry, I feel you have asked an important question , it is not just how long we live but the quality of life of those days lived.

btw you have caused no upset.

I always enjoy a good open , honest debate which respects each others points of view.

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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to Milkfairy

Thanks for the reassurance; I appreciate you having replied.

That question is, to me, important too. Decisions made now may backfire in a few years time; too late then to alter anything, and I don't like regrets - get depressed then. I know that does no good, but that's when I wish for time travel.

Henry

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Heythrop51

Thank you for replying.

1 like
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MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Heythrop51

No worries...

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HiddenThis reply has been deleted
Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to Hidden

Preventing a stroke is something people often overlook.

It is the Cardiovascular system not just the coronary arteries that are affected by the build up of fatty plaque

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Deano_H
Deano_H
in reply to Hidden

Blimey, jokes aside. The stats are quite sobering on the cons side.

2 likes
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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to Deano_H

Would you give some examples please

I would be helpful.

Thanks

Henry

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Sparkeybigshot1

I took Statins for 18 months, I couldn’t understand why I felt so ill, flue like symptoms, muscle aches, no energy lethargic, brain fog, depression.

Did some research and decided to stop taking them, I am gradually improving. As far as I am concerned there should be a warning on the package explaining that they do not suit everyone. In some cases I think they can cause other illnesses altziemers being one.

Our bodies need cholesterol to function every body’s level is different.

I am not medically trained, but suggest people do there own research.

I would NEVER take another statin.

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lamina_128

I was prescribed atorvastatin 40mg and after a total of four tablets I could barely walk. My legs turned to jelly at the slightest exertion and I couldn't move the pedals of my exercise bike. This in a healthy 70 year old who walks two golden retreivers about 10 miles a day and cycles and exercises regularly. I pointed out to my GP that if this is the effect on my leg muscles what on earth was happening to my heart muscles? 48 hours after stopping the medication I was back on my bike and walking the dogs. I will not be taking statins again. I am quite looking forward to the appointment with the consultant.

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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to lamina_128

I can sympathise and understand your feelings, but consider the future for yourself. You still need the consultant. Alienation? Need I say more ...

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lamina_128
lamina_128
in reply to Henry20

Thats precisely why I will not take statins - I am considering the future :-)

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Henry20
Henry20
in reply to lamina_128

Yes, but its not what you say, but how you say it.

That's all I am saying

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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to lamina_128

Hi Lamina_128

I acknowledge that quality of life is very important however I would be very interested in your statistical analysis of the research that helped you come to your decision.

Ultimately we need to be able to make objective informed choices about the treatment we decide to take up.

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lamina_128

Hello Milkfairy, I would dearly love to give you all the information that you need to make an informed choice. But I never give advice on the following: Bringing up children (we've only had four so my experience is of no consequence), Training dogs (again we've only had four so likewise my knowledge is trivially small), medication or diet ( my choices are simply that, my choices).

Bearing that in mind these are my thoughts and ONLY MINE! I have no interest in persuading anyone to do anything.

I have read extensively on the use of statins to control Cholesterol. I have noted that just about all trials are industry sponsored and show small effects. I am dubious about the excessive claims made for this medication and any claim which uses relative risk against absolute risk is a red flag - for me. If you read/watch any article/video by John Ioannidis you will discover that a surprising proportion of medical trials are non-reproducible or when repeated the claims are exaggerated. The last trial of the resurrected poly pill (this first popped up 18 years ago) containing statins, aspirin etc and which were shown to have a positive effect on blood pressure, cholesterol etc., were carried out in Northern Iraq - curious place to do a trial - just my opinion. I could go on about the fact that the brain contains about 25% of the cholesterol in the body and because of the blood/brain barrier it makes its own cholesterol. Fat soluble statins (atorvastatin, lovastatin, simvastatin) can pass through this barrier and have an effect on the cholesterol level in the brain. This doesn't seem like a good idea.

BUT : your decision is yours , I have no axe to grind. I am 70, keep active, eat a wide variety of stuff and am very active socially. All my choices of medication are made after discussion with my family. The GP/Counsultant is part of the process but the ultimate responsibility for my health is mine. Its your life, your choices are yours - and its the only one - enjoy!

4 likes
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Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star
in reply to lamina_128

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me so fully!

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Osidge

If you read the Patient Information Leaflets they clearly talk about the *possible* side effects of all medications in the UK.

Sadly I have seen posts from people who assume that everyone will suffer from all possible side effects. There is also the nocebo effect where people will get the side effects they think they should be getting - the reverse of the placebo effect.

As to Statins causing Alzheimers, you might want to read the following: nhs.uk/news/neurology/do-st... The opposite to what you thought and frightened people with!!!

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Stu888

I’ve an open mind about statins as I take 20mg Atorvastatin down from 80mg a few years back. Regards conspiracy where big money is involved you can never rule anything out... Just google the story of why they used terra ethyl lead in petrol for years when using ethanol as an additive did the same job!

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lamina_128
lamina_128
in reply to Stu888

Hi Stu - Thomas MidgelyJr could be called the human who had the single greatest effect on humanity (discounting religious leaders) - he was responsible for developing and promoting Tetra ethyl lead instead of ethanol (it was a few c cheaper) leading eventually to the problems of lead ingestion and then went on to develop CFC's and similar compounds as refrigerants and aerosol propellants - we all know what happened then :-(

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Stu888
Stu888
in reply to lamina_128

I didn’t know this person was also behind CFCs. I believe that he promoted tetra ethyl lead as he knew ethanol could not be patented!

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jimmyq

If you take your statins and they work without giving you side effects that is brilliant. If you take your statins and they work but give you minor side effects that is brilliant too. If you take your statins and they work but give you major side effects they need to be addressed by a doctor. If you take your statins and they DON'T work AND give you major side effects that is useless and needs to be addressed by a doctor. It is all down to the individual.

I don't think that there are anti-statin conspiracies on here. It's just that some benefit from them more than others and peoples' medications need to be adjusted until the the right combination is found, if possibe.

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pablojack

I always resisted taking statins. However when my chl rose to 8.2 despite diet and lifestyle changes i finally relented. I have been taking 20mg atoravastin for 3 months. My chl is now 4.2 with all sub groups including trigs within range. Magic.

Of course some will say you fixed the numbers but with no real effect on health. However I will continue to take them as long as there are no adverse effects.

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