Yeah, it's a lovely piece of rump or fillet tomorrow night:
Red Meat Not A Health Risk: Yeah, it's... - British Heart Fou...
Red Meat Not A Health Risk
MichaelJHHeart Star
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MichaelJH
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124 Replies
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That's good news, I've almost given up red meat since my HA . A nice piece of lovely lean fillet might be the order of the day.
Only one final thought, as red meat has been demonised for so long, and is now found to be innocent who is the silent assassin? 🥩🥩🥩
Well....
There maybe more than one name in the frame...
Stress is the modern day killer..
Do carnivores die from a diet of red meat ?
I suspect dairy produce because I have been vegetarian for most of my life and still got blocked arteries.
You may well be right.
The problem in trying to analyse the effects of nutrition is that you're always working with imperfect data.
With a drug trail you can give it to sample group A and give a placebo to sample group B, within a reasonable period of time you'll get a result which strongly points in one direction.
With nutrition you can look at a group of people for years, but at the end of it due to the diverse diet they will all have it becomes difficult to assign an illness/disease to a foodstuff.
Of course if you locked people up and force fed them on a particular diet you would probably come up with some good pointers as to what causes cardiac conditions, but that's unethical and illegal!
It's an interesting article, which is going against the trend of many years.
I suspect the answer is that we should read these findings and all the other reports that come out, make our own mind up and do what we think is best for us.
I'm happy to be locked up & force fed chocolate in the interest of research! Although the occasional gin would be appreciated!
I'd be happy to be locked up in a Hotel Chocolat shop!
Me too....
I have a confession to make I also like Port which I feel goes better with in particular dark chocolate.
Could this be one for you:
My mother worked in a sweet factory, she said the workers soon got sick of eating the products 😂
How's about this:
It's me, I'm afraid - I act with a murder mystery company 
And here we have the answer.
Red meat is OK, just keep away from Alison, she's the one with the big dagger! 🤞🤞
And thanks to my HA last year, I know exactly where to put the dagger...
The consensus in the vast majority of studies on red and processed meat reach a conclusion contrary to to the title of your post. In addition, it is well documented that those who abstain from meat in its entirety have lower rates of both heart disease and cancer than omnivores.
The Killer word is processed
But we’ve always smoked, salted etc to preserve food through the winter months. It’s the c**p they feed the animals, also pump them full of medication to get them bigger quicker😳 Pesticides on crops and veg 😳
So true....and now check out the environmental impact!
The planet's main problem is overpopulation increasing the demand for everything from fuel to apples, and overloading the infrastructure from railways to hospitals. Too early to do a2z...
I think I’ll stop there. There’s lots we can all read (if so moved!) in the respectable literature about red meat consumption, health and the environmental impact.
I totally agree, Strange how no one ever mentions the obvious overpopulation issue - guess its related to the 'capitalist' mantra of ever expanding growth!! Either that or everyone has gone totally mad, its been the elephant in the room for decades!
A good description of overpopulation:
And probably have pernicious anaemia
Not surprisingly, a very large majority of vegans/vegetarians supplement vitamin B12 and this is not an issue.
I know of some who take no supplements 😥
They are the very small minority that I referred to, and quite foolish imo.
To me if any diets that requires a person to supplement it (unless there are medical issues) cannot be a healthy balanced diet!
I believe the criteria used to identify if a diet is healthy or not should be based on health outcomes. The fact that those abstaining from meat have statistically significant reduced rates of both heart disease and cancer is what is relevant. The criteria that you use to base your statement on has little relevance considering the abundance of evidence which supports the bountiful benefits of a whole food plant based diet. The fact that vegetarians, and vegans in particular need to supplement vitamin B12 for optimal health is a small price to pay for all of the benefits that this diet affords them and in no way is it any sort of determinant of what constitutes a healthy diet. You have basically stated that vegetarian and vegan diets are not healthy, which I believe you know is patently false.
I am in no way advocating that a vegetarian/vegan diet is the best diet for everyone, however that is the case for some including myself. We are all different, and must pursue the diet that we as individuals believe is best suited for our own personal health, and I believe that we should be able to debate such things without posts denigrating the diets of others that differ from our own.
• in reply toChicagoGirl1961
Very eloquently put chicagogirl1961.
I am not as you say denigrating your diet but expressing a personal opinion, which is mine and mine alone. Whilst someone who is lactose intolerant taking calcium supplements makes total sense supplementing by choice does not add up to me but it is a personal opinion as I have said.
That's not what it says. Not easy to survey but eating red or processed increases the risk of bowel cancer. I'd rather not have bowel cancer
What it says in a nutshell is that 6 people in 100 will get bowel cancer anyway! Eating red meat means that another 1 person out of the 100 could also get it. (Explanation from BBC News last evening ) I will just carry on with my varied diet and enjoy what I eat!
That means 500,000 people with avoidable bowel cancer
Unfortunately there are many other potential risks from not eating red meat too! A varied, balanced diet with moderation in everything is probably the best approach!
Absolutely agree!
That additional one case per 100 individuals, is statistically significant, increasing risk be more than 16%.
I found lamina_128 's
explanation of statistics including relative risk and absolute risk very helpful.
It was posted a couple of days ago in this thread.
I have a friend who got bowel cancer at 33 years old and diet was mostly white meat (fish) and fresh veg/fruit.
In 1983 there were two female deaths from bowel cancer in the 16 to 23 age group. Sadly our daughter was one of them. The other was a nurse in Nottingham.
Our daughter had a bowel polyp when she was six. No one then realised that some families are more likely to be prone to them and should have checks from time to time. They can take fifteen years to become cancerous. One GP I had said when we were leaving his area that he had always meant to have me checked and to ask my next GP to arrange it, When I asked him and the one after I just got a blank look and a "Why"
The great difficulty is that it is not easy (and perhaps well nigh impossible) for lay people like me, in spite of having done a research module in my degree, to sort the sheep from the goats.
Good research or bad research? Sound conclusions or unsound?. As usual moderation in everything may prove to be the most acceptable path.
If you look far enough you can always find somee research to support your own beliefs. I know this because I love butter!!
I had a very old Scottish doctor who I asked the secret of his longevity. He replied moderation in all things and an excess of Whisky.
Or maybe gin?
Not for a True Scot. He had to finally retire when his wife died as she was his driver
In an interview on TV a 90-odd year old Frenchman said that he credited drinking 3 litres of red wine a day for his longevity. I'll drink to that!
Hi, l worked in a office arranging funerals many years ago and the chief coroner in Bristol told me the biggest cause of death was stress! Also in the chapel of rest an old lady laid in a tweed suit and in her coffin prior to being buried, her relatives put 200 fags and a bottle of whiskey, She was 99 years old when she passed away and enjoyed her vices every day, so enjoy people!!!
Well you heard right, meditation can help, practice QiGong it has wonderful health benefits, I am off all of my meds.
Hi, sounds good but what is it please? l have never heard of QiGong. ls it something to do with Buddists? Sue.
It is part of the Tai Chi exercises. "Trust Me I'm A Doctor" found that it gave a good workout without strain or pain. Shibashi is a QiGong routine: youtube.com/watch?reload=9&...
There are QiGong classes all over the country. Age UK in your area might be able to advise you on that. They run the classes round here. You don't have to go out, it's very gentle and easy to learn. It takes about 20 minutes. Just follow the video. My tutor says it can be done every day. I hope you enjoy it. I use it as a "warm-up" for Tai Chi.
l laughed loudly when you mentioned l get in touch with Age UK l don't belong to that club just yet. l ride on the back of my Husbands fast BMW motorbike, wear jeans, high heels, and don't have too many wrinkles, no whiskers, or grey hair, also my bladder is in remarkable shape after two kids, no leaks!!! Thank you for the information and making me laugh. PS, l'm just off to go skateboarding at my local park, hee hee.
Kefalonia1
You made me smile the imagine of you skateboarding in high heels🤣
Don't forget the leak proof bladder 😂
Indeed!
I am not quite ready for Age UK either. My pelvic floor kept springy by Tai Chi and yoga 😂
OMG the Tena Lady Bikers!
I will stick to the 59 Club and Three Rivers Chapter. The Widow's Sons wasn't for me!
How did we jump from rump steak to tena ladies! 😂
Via bikers in high heels, pelvic floors and leak proof bladders! My thread has been hijacked!
I was gonna write about all that but wasn't sure my bad eyesight was up to it 😂
l thought l recognised a kindred spirit, are you called Mandy on weekends? hee hee.
😂
Quickly and with much deserved humour!!!
That image would probably not be very good for virtual friends on here with heart issues.!!!
You don't have to be old to do Tai Chi. The younger the better. If footballers did Tai Chi they wouldn't get as many injuries. If everyone did Tai Chi there would be a lot less stress and related disease in the world.
Ah Grasshopper you are older now than you were when you were younger!
When we leave Europe I will be stopping my favourite French butter
I am a believer of a little of what you fancy does you good. I am also Scottish so it may a Scottish thing. But I don't drink at all any more lol
seasider18• in reply to
Also a Scot but I gave up on Whisky a long time ago for Red wine. It must be a South Coast thing as I'm in East Sussex. There is a 3/4 full bottle of an expensive Whisky in the cupboard bought on a flight back from Oslo in 2003.
I am new to all this and find the contradictory information more than a little confusing. Looking at older threads there seems a lot of You Tube clips of nutty professor style diets often out to sell books! Day 2 of my Mediterranean diet. Sticking with it to see where it takes me. 1.5 lb lighter this morning!
Ok... but be careful, this is a mani stream media story, like Saddam's WMD, climate change, etc. I don't trust any of these people. The meat industry is big and influential.
So because something appears in the mainstream media it is likely to be fake news. Therefore statins must be good for you as the Daily Fail said they were bad!
Statins are bad change your diet so you don’t need them.
Many on this forum have been on them for years. Side effects are exaggerated on social media and you just make a statement like "statins are bad". It is also not relevant to this thread.
So are you saying there's no climate change? Next you will be saying man didn't land on the Moon 50 years ago!
Climate has always changed, but there is no evidence to show man has had much to do with in. The earth has remained the same temperature for the past 18 years and has risen only 1c since the end of the last mini iceage, 150 years ago. So the 1c is a natural upcycle.
There is no evidence that man has been on the moon either, funny we can apparently photograph black holes trillions of miles away, but we can't photgraph a moon buggy 250k miles away. Plus 24 conveniently camera shy American astranauts.
Yes its all a bunch of cobblers,but don't worry about it, the tooth fairy help kids through their trauma, so why not fairytales for grown ups?
Relax it is all part of the game.
Back on topic... there is some evidence that animal fat is good for your health, after all the French eat more than most nations and have one of the lowest rates of CVD in the world.
Interesting! You say there is evidence animal fat is good for you but the link for Rip Esselsytn's diet was 100% vegan!
Yes, it seems there are many methods and as I have said the French with their very low rates of CVD is evidence that aminal fat is good. So given the evidence I don't think either system is wrong. There are many on this forum alive and well after many years on the meditereanian diet too.
The main thing is that you dont worry about it and don't eat processeed crap.
Out of interest which diet do you follow?
Since my HA I have started every morning with an Esselstyn breakfast, I eat as much of his stuff as I can, but due to scary weight loss and very low cholesterol readings I threw in fish to start with. In the past 2 months I have had a little beef, an odd croissant a few buscuits which I alter by getting a pack of oat buscuits and covering then in 95% chocolate. Apart from a little red wine, olive oil (from my own vines/trees) and an odd meal out that is it.
Esselsytn with an increasing amount of cheating.
That is not what I said, it may be a true story with lots of completely imparial long term evidence, but the MSM is full of lies, so treat it with caution.
Verify the story from the full report from an independant source, if you can. And I repeat, the meat industry is very powerful and influential.
I think by msm you mean the mail, sun and express and not the decent organisations. Mail readers are blaming vegans, they tend to blame vegans for everything
No I mean "main stream media." Listen it may be true, Vegans have a lower life expectancy than meat eaters or veggies and eating steak is certainly the best way of eating red meat.
Sillyfroggy's mum was right.
You are actually 100% wrong. This for example. nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/v...
So how am I 100% wrong, or wrong at all, I said Vegans live shorter lives mainly due to their high consumption of oil? The veggies in the article arent all veggies anyway.
This diet seems pretty good to me from Dr, Esselsytn's son. webmd.com/diet/a-z/engine-2...
Good link. Some weighty research was needed, to counteract the anecdotes!
‘A little of what you fancy does you good’ my mother used to say. The key word being ‘little’.
The meat thing isn’t directed at us though! Just bowel cancer. I also think a little of what you fancy...
From the article:
"Based on the research the 14-member international team led by Bradley Johnston an associate professor of community health at Dalhousie University in Halifax, Canada, concluded that those who like meat should not stop on health grounds. “Based on the research, we cannot say with any certainty that eating red or processed meat causes cancer, diabetes or heart disease,” he said.
Ooh, I stand corrected. The radio only mentioned cancer.
I have noticed this many a time. The radio (particularly local) tends to prune items and can become misleading!
Who funded the research?
Hi, I'm very keen on statistics .....so looking at the numbers at the bottom of the article. Every year 40000 (approx) people get bowel cancer. If all of us stopped eating red or processed meat then 5400 fewer people would get bowel cancer - say 35000. So the probability of any one person getting bowell cancer now is (assuming 50,000,000 people in the UK) is 0.08%. If we all stopped eating red/processed meat the probability drops to 0.07% - the relative risk reduction is 12.5%, the absolute risk reduction is pretty much irrelevant. The impact on the environment is a whole different factor but health issues - not relevant in my humble opinion. But as with all our health - its a personal decision.
Thank you so much for the number crunching.
It is very helpful to have the statistics explained with such clarity.
Absolute risk and relative risk are so often misused and abused in the media and elsewhere.
Thanks Milkfairy. As soon as I see benefits or downsides of any particular therapy or drug I immediately get my Relative Risk Factor detector out. To put the data another way - theres a roughly 1 in 1250 chance of an individual developing bowel cancer now and a 1 in 1400 chance of an individual gettin bowel cancer if we ALL stopped eating red or processed meat. This is about the same as death from falling down stairs (US data).
So you'd be better off moving to a bungalow and eating bacon sandwiches
I think reading too many statistics can be too stressful. Find a good novel instead. I’m a big fan of Andrea Camilleri. His humour in serious situations lightens things.
I suspect it is a case of eating lean meat of known origin. Goodness knows what is in these factory burgers and sausages!
MichaelJHHeart Star
A very good point sir. Our local butcher will make burgers for you so you can see exactly what goes into them.
MichaelJHHeart Star
MasterChef would call that a "deconstructed" bacon sandwich! 😀
My angina, energy, and cardiac labs dramatically improved after I gave up red meat and other foods high in saturated fat. Thankfully I chose lifestyle over medications as the meds were just masking my symptoms. I am grateful to lifestyle medicine docs such as Dean Ornish and Caldwell Esselstyn for opening my eyes.
I wonder if Greggs have heard about this report -
bbc.co.uk/news/business-498...
Their sausage rolls probably contain unhealthy red meat! Probably as bad as McDs!
Possibly worse than McDs, but serious big seller!
Looking at the article is says 20% of the sausage roll is pork. If I look at Waitrose Online 54% is pork. Why the difference?
Smaller pig?? 😂
The % is of the total weight including the pastry, which I guess means the actual meat in the Waitrose is all meat, while say half the weight of the a Greggs 100g roll is pastry,then the remaining 50% , 50 grams is the bit in the middle, the meat, except they 've said that 20% is meat, ie 20g, so the other 30g is something else don't want to think about that!
Do you think people will start stockpiling sausage rolls in their freezer? Many apparently have hundreds of toilet rolls and tins of baked beans!
I feel ill just thinking about that
MilkfairyHeart Star
Anyone for Black pudding?
I'm sure you're asked this before under the post of what food do you miss most, I said cooked breakfast - sausage,bacon, eggs, beans - and you replied what no black pudding
You get vitamin B12 from red meat, best source.
This 2007 article at Cancer Research UK discusses how white and red meats are cooked and the processing. It seems a good straightforward article as we often buy meat products these days which are packaged with an array of chemicals added.
scienceblog.cancerresearchu...
I worked for awhile at a company making sausages and many other products. The meat came from abroad and covered with a preservative substance which was removed in an acid bath. After that it was cooked and dye added. If you think about it, tins of cooked meat are relatively low priced and in fact a far higher priced is paid if you get it from the Butchers or similar counters at a Supermarket.
Thanks, but yuk!
Also a huge factor is what we inherit from mother and father, Grandparents.
Bloody ‘research’ - one week coffee kills next week it’s good for your heart .. I got bored of listening to these ‘professionals’ years ago.
Sod em - have what you want when you want
In moderation.. stuff any of
The moron squad
I volunteer to be locked up to test beer.
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