Dieting and juicing

[supmy62]

Hello i,m new to this.I ordered the Clint Paddison program has any tried the celery and cucumber juice cleanse? If so do I eat anything else for the two days or just juice. and also after the two day cleanse, When I start day 3 with the buckwheat and quinoa how many days with that do I eat that for the whole day or do I add on. Thanks in advance.

[andyswarbs]

When I started I spent a whole week on the detox phase. 5 days of total respite from pain was not something I wanted to give up. But your body needs nutrition. Be aware that pain comes back with almost everything you eat. Stick to the program and you will get great nutrition. Then soon enough your body will begin to tolerate the initial foods. Sadly the pain continues because you will introduce more foods all of which will cause pain initially. This is all covered in the comprehensive documentation.

Good luck.

[Hidden]

What are you trying to "cleanse"'exactly and how? These cleanses and "detoxes" have no scientific basis. It's sheer quackery.

[LucindaLinda in reply to Hidden]

RhI100

What do you think about EBV and it's effect on the body?

[Hidden]

Respectfully: How do you KNOW it works? Because you or they, claim to feel better after you/they tired it? Correlation does not imply causation: just because two things occur within a similar time frame does not mean one caused the other.

It's nonsense. This is extreme closed minded behaviour.

"Don't knock it till you've tried it" otherwise known as the special pleading fallacy, does not alter the fact it has no evidence of efficacy or any grounding in science.

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In short, It's bullshit.

You can't bring these people back down to earth, because they KNOW. They think they've seen results. All you'll get if you challenge them for anything remotely logical and rational is a very long line of fallacious arguments.

[Hidden]

"When my physicians are flummoxed by my 'no-grounding-in-science' progress "

That's your interpretation. We aren't flummoxed by such cases. It sounds like you think you're outsmarting" us. If that gives you a sense of victory and improves your wellbeing then so be it. Alas, In reality, we know that conditions come and go. Some of them clear up over time. Sometimes there's other factors. Sometimes the problem was more psychological in origin to start with....

😉😍😊😂😘😬😁😇😆⭐️😀👌👌👌👄 (I thought I'd throw these in because you seem emoji happy.)

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"For a growing number of us...."

Anecdotes and appeal to the masses: Anecdotes aren't on par with data. _______

"Could each of these medically trained 'people of science' be reading our lab tests incorrectly ('think they're seeing results') & mistakenly assessing/ determining that reducing/ weaning off meds is the appropriate course of action for each of our cases? 🤔"

I'm not saying there isn't changes to your lab tests. I'm saying these changes/improvements are not the result of the [insert voodoo here] you claim.

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"Oh well, perhaps the living, breathing, walking, 'actual' results of 💩 ..."

Again , you're missing the point.. anecdotes and confusing correlation with causation.

I feel genuine concern for you. You've clearly been duped.

My concern is that people will seek this kind of alternative "treatment" in place of actual medicine and therein lies the real harm.

[Hidden]

Hi. Thanks for your reply. First, diet and life style changes are advised to any patient with diagnosed illness, or not. So eating your "5 -a day" and exercising has known health benefits. You'll feel better too and that has a profound effect itself. Let us not underestimate the power of wellness.

But there's no evidence, or even rational reason to assume, these juices and detoxes or whatever are of any benefit on top of a healthy diet and lifestyle. Rheumatoid arthritis is caused by an inflammatory immune response.

There are some people who think eating turmeric is beneficial because it has anti-inflammatory properties which they assume will help inflammation. They don't understand why this reasoning is simplistic.

It might make people "feel" better and maybe feel more in control, like you're actively doing something. (Hold this thought, I'll come back to it later.)

Bottom line: Autoimmune diseases such as RA, aren't affected by diet; as in, diet won't change the course of the disease. However, healthy eating is still important as I mentioned.

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"gawd-given horse sense. "

Common sense.....actually isn't that common. Unless you have training in science, medicine, epidemiology and statistics, how do you know what's best for your health? Research isn't about reading a bunch of articles on the internet. Us humans aren't logical by nature, we evolved to be story telling animals and we favour the subjective (anecdotes) over the objective (data). We are prone to a number of illogical reasonings and the infallibility of human error such as confusing correlation with causation.

Health care workers and particularly scientists are trained to reason with logic and evidence base.

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"For it to happen repeatedly -- at the point where we can control it -- 'play it like a fiddle' 🎻 🎶 -- speaks to something quite different."

logically thinking, if it were that simple, why do you think we bother with expensive and time consuming double-blind studies? Come on, it's more complex than that. Surely you realise this?

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"Perhaps if one had the luxury of time, to actually 'listen to' & 'work with' patients who are using these dietary/ lifestyle approaches, it might be an eye-opener 👁 for the genuinely interested in the medical community. "

No, we are interested in progression and advancements in treatment. Do you really think we would spend all these years training to ignore it? Logic should dictate that there are research scientists paid to find treatments. Do you think they'd ignore something as simple as this?

(And don't fall for the: "you can't patent nature" we can and do all the time, just not in the crude form: think willow bark- aspirin. )

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"A 'pattern' has emerged -- not only in individuals -- but across many people."

Epidemiologists would shriek at this statement. This brings me back to conversations I've had with those opposed to vaccines who (still) think the MMR causes autism. This is one of the most popular argument techniques they use, "we can't all be wrong, we've seen a pattern" otherwise known as appeal to the masses and confirmation bias: "Our child was given this nasty vial of toxin filled evil then he started fitting and nothing has been right since. It HAS to be the vaccine! We've all seen it".

Really ? So let's look at this critically: A bunch of people with a medical condition and similar interest have grouped together on a forum. You all have one thing in common: looking for answers that science can't yet give so you look to unscientific treatments and explanations. Is that rational? So a pattern of people with poor reasoning have formed. Is it any wonder you're seeing a "pattern"? Have you taken things like age, sex, climate, genetics, ethnic group other preexisting health conditions into consideration?

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"they are indeed merely 'unreliable testimonials/ hearsay' (not 'official', scientific 'data') -- yet what else is there?"

Scientific data. There are people who look at this stuff.

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"❓ Apparently, these current diet/ lifestyle approaches are not 'formally'/ 'officially' studied -- long term (?) -- so it appears we've only 'testimonials' to go by?"

You need to have rational reason to do a large scale study that costs thousands. You don't waste funds on an idea that has no scientific basis to start with. Why would we waste money on something so implausible ?

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"❓ Why are so many sufferers seeking relief (& meeting with varying degrees of success) in the the dietary/ lifestyle realm?

(I'm going to tie these two questions in together with....)

"❓ Why would there be a proliferation of online forums, Facebook, etc. communities of people wishing to exchange ideas, learn from each other's experiences in order to help each other?"

So, earlier on I asked you to hold a thought about doing things to make us feel better and in control: I have to admit, the medical and scientific community, particularly here in the UK, have played a role in this problem: We often don't have time to sit down and explain the ins and outs of diseases to patients. Often it's a case of, " here's your diagnosis, there's nothing we can do yet, you'll have to live with it. Here's some pain relief." Even though that might be the harsh reality.

I'm also going to use my MMR/autism example earlier: why do parents go looking for answers to their child so tragically developing autism else where:

It's actually simple: They want answers.

They don't like hearing, " there's nothing we can do." Exploring other options, helps people to feel they are actively doing "something", it helps them to feel empowered: Feel in control. This in itself gives an overwhelming sense of satisfaction and relaxation and improved wellbeing but don't confuse that with efficacy of the [insert whatever nonsense here].

Ask yourself this: if the science and medical community haven't got the answers, why is it rational to assume people on these forums have?

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"For many of us RA-ers/ autoimmuners, if we wish to 'tip into flare' -- we merely need ingest some of our inflammatory/ trigger foods & experience (objectively observe) the 'direct' effect. "

You mean subjectively observe ?

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" Many of us are neither 'novitiates' 😐 nor fools 😜. Our heads are firmly, equanimous-ly 😌 in place & we've an ability to see & judge daily realities -- 'on realities terms'.😊"

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Do you have training in science, medicine, epidemiology and statistics? So how do you have the ability to, "see & judge daily realities..." [in relation to changes to medical diseases] ?

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"Oh, I don't know if this would interest you at all, Rhi100, but maybe the work of Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Dean Ornish, Dr. Michael Greger, Dr. Michael Klaper, Dr. John McDougall, et al. are physicians worth exploring -- if you're not already aware of their work.

(Don't think they're 'lumped in' with 'quacks' 🐥 . 🙃 😳 😂 Think they're legitimate, respected leaders in their fields. 👍) "

Appeal to authority. Science works by evidence. Not credentials. There are quacks in every field. Just take a look at Linus Pauling. Sadly, all the while there are gullible people listening to their nonsense, these charlatans will persist.

Respectfully, trying reasoning with logic and not emotion. Some info you may find helpful:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/ ( of course, you need to have training in how to interpret and indeed navigate scientific literature).

sciencebasedmedicine.org/ab... (there are many topics here you may find of interest)

nccih.nih.gov/

(The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) is an agency, "for scientific research on the diverse medical and health care systems, practices, and products that are not generally considered part of conventional medicine." In short, they look at so called "treatments" and look at the evidence behind it.

rheumatoidarthritis.net/liv...

Be aware though. Those who are staunch complimentary and alternative "medicine" activists will claim it's corrupt and that we aren't interested in finding cures and that "big pharma" want to suppress cures and keep us all sick in order to make money from treatments. You claim to have "common sense", so I don't need to explain the fallacious reasoning with these "arguments" do I ?😉

Best wishes

[arthritis_action Partner]

Hello, We do not advocate the use of any particular programme as we are a self-management charity - if you are considering following something, we always recommend you first speak to your GP to ensure your safety.

For information on our services, self-management, and upcoming events, please visit our site: arthritisaction.org.uk

Best wishes,

Despina

Arthritis Action Communications Officer

[arthritis_action Partner]

Thank you for posting supmy62. We do not advocate the use of any particular programme as we are a self-management charity - if you are considering following something, we always recommend you first speak to your GP to ensure your safety.

Many thanks, and best of luck.

Arthritis Action