There are experimental treatments that help better control afib or even cure it, like gene therapy. But information is scarce.
From what I understand, there isn't much interest from big pharma to create a pill that cures afib.
Cath labs and drugs like DOAC are like the golden goose for the pharma industry and medical professionals. It would be a bad business for them to cure the afib with just one pill.
I fear that the journey to cure afib is not a difficult one but they make it difficult in order to get more money from patients.
Does anyone have any information about experimental trials or even more, someone here who was part of clinical trials or who managed to fix their afib with less conventional methods like stem cells treatment ?
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I wish I had your hope, but after twenty years in the game I wouldn't hold my breath. We know what AF is but not why AF is. In order to "cure" it one needs to know why it happens and that is the $64,000 question.(sorry showing my age there).
we don't need to know why AF is in order to cure it. there are many things that we don't know but that hasn't stopped scientists to make outstanding innovations. take electricity for example. it's still a mystery. yes, we know that electricity is the flow of electrons from a positive charge to a negative charge (conventional current) but we don't know how is it possible that electrons "know" about each other and we don't know the force that makes them want to move in order to balance the charge, and how do they know exactly how many to move to be just right, no more, no less but just right to achieve perfect balance. we have no clue what happens at the quantum level.
yet we managed to exploit this physical phenomena and build so many applications.
I don't think there is someone who has the cure for afib and keeps it in a locked box.
But I think that some group of people have a strong lead about a potential cure but they don't pursue it because that isn't going to generate too much money for them
I disagree that there is a potential cure for AF and they haven’t pursued it. Those group of people would become billionaires and if “greed” comes into it they are hardly going to keep it to themselves. The same has been said for a cure for cancer.
To me, it is logic that the cause has to be found in order to stop it happening in the first instance. I think we have to know the reason why things go wrong to put them right. Like a car engine. Of course, there are also parts that wear out!
AF is such a complex condition and each individual has unique symptoms. Because of this l would imagine there would have to be different approaches to a cure, if ever one was found, just as there are different treatments at this moment in time. If there was a cure, it could still entail life long treatment so……
You have lots of hope and we all wish for a cure, but is it a false hope? One day a cure could be found, but none of us will live forever.
There isn't a magic pill to cure AFib altogether because there are so many potential reasons , some in combination in one individual , which can cause people to develop AFib.Unless , you had AFib temporarily as a severe symptom of another illness or infection , AFib can be corrected with treatments , it can be managed with treatments , you could be very lucky and your self care and medical treatment could leave you AFib event free , but you would still have the potential to have your AFib triggered.
Even if you are AFib Event free and everything is being successfully managed most people would still need long term preventative treatments ( either as Self Care or as essential medication )to reduce their risk of other health issues.
Having AFib isn't just a matter of a one pill deal , one pill would not fit all.
Trust me , if Big Pharma could find the pill that could be the " cure" they'd make it and market it , and make a fortune off it, just as they do for other new treatments.
Yes, but Atrial Fibrillation is a condition that will continue to affect many, many people for every generation so they would more than make their money , especially in comparison to other medications that they make for rarer and " orphan" conditions.
Yes, there isn't a magic pill that cures afib. But does big pharma really want to make one ?I don't think they would make it. They run the numbers and see that is a better profitability to keep us sick.
At first I thought is Thyroid Cancer caused AF which caused my stroke so reversing medical issue thyroid cancer surgically removed AF would go away.
Why only rapid H/Rate day as my normal H/rate avge is 47bpm.? But my AF is persistent as it was diagnosed. Symptoms discussed prior to stroke could have been ponting at AF then - sweating and resting during exertion.
But calcification of 2 lymphs and another area in that vicinity, could be cancer still there. Hospital surgeon investigating. Another CT scan with contrast in May. Papillary cancer grows 1mm year. If still got cancer another chance of AF disappearing.
Yeah ... well, good luck with that. I addressed and researched my own AF misfortunes. In doing so I found my paternal side ( genetically speaking) seemed predisposed to AF and its assorted associates in crime and also food.
I decided I couldn't do much about genetics but I could about food. Trigger identified .. trigger sorted all helped by medication for life = one AF event every four or five years. At 80 now that'll do me. TBH and selfish, I don't care about the wider world, just care about me ............ dun me own thing - got me own results. Sorted !
Our own investigations into our unique food/chemicals/allergies/intolerances and the inflammation they cause in our bodies is the best place to start. Some triggers are common and most here know to avoid caffeine/alcohol/artificial sweeteners/sugar etc but I rarely see people really try to work on themselves or be willing to accept lifestyle can be the cause. Eating adulterated denatured ultra processed food and drink that disrupts our gut microbiome and endocrine system is a good place to start. Why wouldn’t you spread the word on your findings to help others though?
My mum and both of her sisters had AF - my mum from her mid30s as did their mother. So def genetic in my case.
The only trigger I’ve identified is MSG. I recall between 2005 and 2008 I had 3 episodes ALL after Chinese t/a food - I only had 3 Chinese t/a meals in that time period. I’ve avoided MSG since but as AF is progressive I hadn’t found my cure and still carried on get AF increasingly often until needing/choosing ablations in 2018 and 2023. One short nocturnal episode (Sept 24) since Jan 23. After….. inadvertently consuming MSG.
This last month I’ve tried avoiding free glutamate (no tomatoes, no fermented or pickled foods etc.) but haven’t noticed much in the way of reduction in single or short runs of ectopics.
I did get intracellular elec testing in 2010 which showed below range Mg and way above range Ca. This, I believe, is my genetic problem. Even 12 weekly IM injections of MgSO4 and oral Mg supp didn’t/wouldn’t rebalance this. In fact I actually found that Mg supps made ectopics worse.
Well here is my reply – as brief and as sensible as the editing of an earlier post of mine will allow.
Firstly, I was diagnosed with paroxysmal AF in early January 2010. By September of that year I had identified the onset of an AF event with food I’d eaten. What gave me the clue to AF and the gut was – the onset of diahorrea, massive and painful bloating, intestinal gurgling and general burping. By far and away the worst and most likely to trip me into AF was the painful bloating. So, the inflated gut sent pain to the top left side of my chest. I did see my GP who had tests done for IBS and Coeliac Disease. All clear. An alternative therapist friend of mine suggested to consult a Nutritionist – which I did.
Long story short, Nutritionist recommended I go Gluten, Wheat and Oats free. She also gave me tips on keeping a food diary. Here goes ……… Anyway, arising from the food diary came a whole range of foods that I found upset my gut - so here we go - ( MUST STRESS ITS NOT JUST FOODS PER SE BUT THE INGREDIENTS, OFTEN HIDDEN AWAY IN THE PRODUCT DESCRIPTION).
Gluten, Wheat, Oats, Runner beans, Peas, soft cheeses ( but hard cheeses are OK), Onions ( but Spring Onions/Shallots are OK), Lettuce, Tomato, bread ( but I can tolerate bread made from sour dough), dried fruit ( raisens etc), Strawberries are OK but Raspberries are not, although once in a while in moderation I can tolerate them, then I decided to go added sugar free as well. As the months and years went on I discovered heaps of other food that would upset me - processed foods, a certain brand of chinese meals (packaged takeaway meals purchased from well known UK department stores or supermarkets, also UK typical draught pub beers, but also canned beers. Some breakfast cereals too. Many, but not all, bakery products too .... so here we come back to anything with gluten, wheat or oats in the ingredient list. Roast Pork crackling only as well as Roast Duck also come to mind. Yet .... bog standard, KFC is not an issue, nor is Maccas ( as long as I don’t have bread their products).
The link in all this is the Vagal Nerve, a nerve in the central nervous system which acts as an information superhighway between the brain, digestive system and heart (and many other organs). I do suggest you Google it and also Google the VN schematic diagram which shows how this nerve winds its way through the body. I have to say this ........ I hold the view that it is a dysfunctional vagal nerve that is the cause of my AF. This view is not based on medical or scientific evidence but on anecdotal evidence only.
Now to genetics. I have to exclude my mother and father as they died from Alzheimers and Diabetes respectively. My mothers side generally were long livers, into their 90’s, however my mothers parents died from non cardiac conditions. Now in the current era my fathers side are much more interesting. Again generally long livers my Dads mother lived to 102 and except my father her 2 other kids lived into their 90’s.
My paternal grandfather died from a series of strokes at age 84 ( in 1964 ). Sadly, nobody is alive today who can shed light on these strokes. My 2nd cousin ( a child of one of my grandfathers brothers ) has the AF diagnosis however I’ve lost touch over the years but if alive he’d be my age now – 80 ish. Then there is me. Then my daughter had the AF diagnosis during both her pregnancies – it seems that now she has stopped breeding the AF has stopped. ( At least for now, she is now 41, so we’ll she how she is at 65 to 70 years of age ).
You mention MSG as in Chinese meals. Interesting. I have found if I I eat a supermarket brand of prepared Chinese meals my gut plays up badly. If I eat out at a Chinese Resturant where I have the opportunity to discuss the menu with staff and then selectively choose my food then I am fine. I am finding where I am many Chinese Resturants are becoming aware of this MSG issue. The tricky bit is if I end up in a Chinese Resturant which is a smorgasbord style affair.
I apologise for the length of this but hopefully it will give you some pointers. If you have any questions - just ask away.
Many thanks for this John - quite a bit to erm... digest !!
98% of my AF has been of the vagal variety as in onset of episodes invariably between 7-30pm and 6am - typically around 4 to 5 am. So I've already done a lot of reading around the vagus nerve and agree with you that autonomic imbalance - as in inappropriate vagal dominance/overly exuberant vagal rebound - plays a big role in precipitating AF. I've always had a resting heart rate of 48-60 BPM. After my Jan 23 ablation, most days I get short runs of ATach (3 to 30 seconds) that almost always start when bending and lifting/straining and when going from hot to cold very quickly.
I haven't noticed any food triggers other than MSG. But leeks do give me lousy wind and discomfort. Tomatoes make me 'loose' ! I too much prefer/feel better with sourdough bread.
Alcohol doesn't seem to bother me in moderation.
Agree with you about hidden ingredients. 98% of the time I only buy and eat what was available in the 1960s !
John, I have never noticed anything related to food, but my main triggers (or at least the recurring activities when I have AF) have always been hard exercise, dehydration and alcohol. I wonder if some foods like Chinese takeaway can\do contain a large amount of salt and increase the chances of dehydration, more so if alcohol is also consumed?
If life was only that simple. If there was such a magical cure which could be invented, you don't think governments might like to know? The mafia? The mob? The wealthiest on the world? You think ‘big pharma’ are so clever they can hide it? That all scientists are part of that conspiracy?
An Australian scientist discovered a wonder vaccine which prevents cervical cancer. If he followed your conspiratorial thinking, the vaccine wouldn’t exist. Australia is on track to have eliminated cervical cancer by 2035.
There is no conspiracy. While big pharma might control some things through greed, there is a CEO of that big pharma held accountable. If anyone is holding the world to ransom it’s people like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, not greedy pharmaceutical company CEOs.
"The mafia? The mob? The wealthiest on the world?" - The corporate actually.
You can ask anyone who works in a corporate, that basically their main goal is how to increase their revenue year over year. At the end it comes down to just that: money.
You’re talking about deliberately hiding or preventing cures from being discovered so ‘big pharma’ can keep making money. I’m saying that there are people bigger and more powerful or simply just more dangerous than a drug company CEO. These people are powerful, rich and in the public eye and suffer from AF - they wouldn’t be idling sitting by being conned by some CEO. Here’s a list of just a few of them:
No, I'm not saying that there is a cure and that it is hidden from the public.
I'm saying that there is no motivation, no desire to invest millions of $ in R&D to find a cure when the conventional, less effective treatments, generate so much cash.
To an extent that is true but scientists live to discover, and sadly or justifiably, we as the community have to ensure we support research through funding so that desire ends in a discovery - just like our Aussie scientist and his vax cure for a cancer which affects a lot of women. I support our research facilities as much as I can.
I sadly think it is extremely common that drugs/cures are not only not used but doesn’t even get to testing at all due to cost of testing and lack of profit potential.
A simple personal example is the off patent drug Naltrexone, used in low dose as LDN it has many applications alas no huge profits to be had hence hard to get trials and therefore hard to obtain for treatment.
Another one is Feceal Matter Transplants, currently can’t be patented so no profit hence hardly any trials. Only “allowed” for treating difficult C-diff infections currently. I’m aware of a local charity whom raised nearly 0.5 million pounds to run an initial trial privately.
I don’t have the answers, I understand in a free market profits matters but (so called) healthcare, in my book, should also care about the people and go beyond mere lifelong “plaster” solutions and strive for cures. Well actually focus on prevention in the first case. Rant over
You can also ask anyone whom actually works in medical and pharmaceutical research to know that it isn't just down to money.There are hundreds of potential " cures" for numerous conditions that have millions ploughed into them that you probably never hear about because they don't manage to fit the standard of safety and get past animal trials, And many more that aren't safe after early human testing.
Big Pharma wouldn't be able to put out the medications it finally manages to discover and formulate without millions of investment. And often those millions come to nothing.
the autistic and adhd etc diagnosis jump is easily explained by the open availability of diagnosis now . In the 80s only the most errant children got any attention from child psychiatrists. Look how many undiagnosed dyslexics there were.
And obesity is entirely explained by junk processed food and lack of exercise in modern western lifestyles.
We also have an increase of fat children number. At about 1980, we had 1 fat child in 100 children, nowadays, we have 1 in 3 children. We also have very high percentage of children with diabetes2, what was not known before etc.
I agree very much about "big food". In an attempt to attract customers, restaurants (at least in my country) offer very big meals. My wife and me always share one portion and are not able to finish even half of the portion. The food at restaurant, being of excellent quality and being paid for, has to be eaten to the end (by many). So, whoever feeds at restaurants, is in danger of getting fat with the time. I would restrict, by law, the portions of the food and thus preserve the health of the people.
Another reason people get fat is "being bored", meaning not having what to do (in a flat, usually). Whatever you try, whatever you do, you always bump into fridge and open it... So, during the whole day, we eat because there is a stupid program in the TV, because we are angry with the neighbor, because we have nothing better of to do, because we want to have something giving us the pleasure...
It took me years to get a diagnosis for my son. I disagree it’s the awareness that explains the rise in numbers. Autism traits are very specific and I don’t remember one child throughout my school years with those very odd presentations. Now, everyone knows or is related to someone or several people with autism.
This is true but it is also the case that what is called Autism now is wider than what was called Autism then. The evolution of Asperger's into Autism is one example. Sadly I remember quite a few children in my school years that got no help when it is obvious now with hindsight that what they had then was Autism.
Yes, that is the point exactly.It wasn't that they weren't there it's just that nobody , including the medical community knew enough about the conditions to know what they had.
The same can be said about PTSD , everyone had an eccentric or three, mainly male , after the wars, nobody realised they were like that because they were struggling after what they had lived through.
The go to none medical diagnosis for anything mental health based over the years was " eccentric" . I've been called it 100's of times myself😆😆😆
Oh dear … a site for sensible discussions - around d a medical issue - always gets overtaken by the conspiracy theorists / anti big pharma, who pile in with their facebook ‘facts’ or data supplied by their friend Maureen, a school dinner lady , who knows someone who’s sister had a heart attack three weeks after being vaccinated. What you always find is that if you actually drill down into their claims , they are made up or actually wrong . What’s so sad is that this started with Andrew Wakefield over a quarter of a century ago with MMR . He was proved completely wrong and yet even now he is out there with a following of disciples. All not medically trained.
No conspiracy theorist here. I'm only searching for data on experimental trials.
Like data on xenotransplants trials, they work on it for 20 years or so but data it was unavailable. It just now made the news that they successfully made a kidney transplant from a genetically modified pig to a human.
Last year they did a pig heart transplant to a human. The pacient lived for 2 months but died because the pig heart had a virus that they missed during screening. The team said they learned a lot from that and they are more confident now than never that they can successfully develop heart pigs compatible with humans.
All eyes are now on the kidney trial transplant patient. If she lives and has a normal life, this might become mainstream and could soon be a "cure" for many terminal patients: pig organs.
Sorry no info about new trials. I think the best chance of finding a'cure' to help the majority is likely to come from the 33K members here.
In my case, I believe stress in all its forms as part of life today is the principal root of my AF. My AF is vagally mediated and is closely linked to what's going on in my mind first and gut second.
However, acting effectively on this hypothesis is not easy. I am working on ways to either reduce stress or cancel it out with another activity. In the meantime, I have to contribute to Big Pharma's profits (with begrudging gratitude) by taking Flecainide 😁.
Meds to influence the vagal nerve, with its all-important effect on AF would almost certainly bring a lasting cure.
But this path is not researched, because ablations are the cash cow of the cathlab. It’s as simple as that.
Companies like Boston Scientific, who design and produce catheters spend fortunes on seminars, videos, trips, and wining and dining of cardiologists to promote their equipment.
My friend cardiologist is a subscriber to their promotional messages. Fun fact: in these messages they admit that there is a 2,1 % risk of ‘serious events’ and also that there is a considerable risk for narrowing of the pulmonary vein.
Moreover, they admit that in the best case scenario, the succes rate is only around 75%. (Much less in practice) . One fourth of the procedures thus will yield no solution at all.
I agree that there is no motivation for companies to invest in r&d for a cure when cath labs generate so much money.
In my country most people have to pay for ablations. The cost is 10k-15k euro and considering most of them need 2-3 ablations to see some good results, that's just so convenient for them, isn't it ?
Here the average salary is less than 1000 euro/month so we need to spend our life savings for ablation procedures.
As someone whom has various cardiac conditions that are affected by the vagal nerve and autonomic dysfunction I can say that there are definitely devices being tested and used , and medications tried to control these issues.They are not effective on their own and they will still only be useable on a daily basis when they find the most efficient ones , unless they finally create a workable implant ( which still wouldn't work for everyone).
Vagal treatments would still only be an ongoing treatment for AFib sufferers and not a " cure".
Vagal stimulation, and it's corresponding potential overshoot of heart rate in autonomic Dysfunction happens because of what you do everyday.
Curing one specific incident , just like curing one set of episodes of AFib does not prevent it happening again, only lifestyle changes can reduce that potential risk or delay the potential of AFib being active again.
Doubtful "human greed" is preventing a "cure" for AFib being discovered.
AFib may or may not be caused by a myriad of different things and doesn't present the same way in everyone. Not unlike many other diseases that may have one cause, or may have multiple causes, and can be only treated not "cured".
Pharma has no real interest in cures there is not a lot of money in it? However, how many have been cured with a CV or Ablation? We now have the Electro pulse thingmajig?
I am a complicated soul with too many conditions one of which is IPAH we are trialing all sorts of drugs in the hope it will give us a few extra years or even a cure. I have been hospitalised because of safe GP/Consultant prescribed drugs on more than one occasion. My wife has been told twice I was not going to survive the night! They got that wrong. Is that a cure? My local Hospital in 2012 gave me a life expectance of 6 to 9 years! They got that wrong. Have I been cured? I was borderline Diabetic a quick change of diet put me in the right range without drugs. (had a bad reaction with metformin) Have I been cured?
I take a total of 31 tablets a day. These keep me upright and going in a limited way and for that I am thankful. My point is we have to live with what we have in the best way we can and hope that the powers to be realise that healthy people work better.
From another complicated soul with too many conditions in one body requiring a myriad of pills and gadgets to keep me alive , I thank you so much for saying that.I'm imagining you also being tempted to bang your head on a brick wall whenever you see these debates.
Have as healthy a day as you can , and let's keep defying the odds , take care , Bee
There's an interesting video posted on YouTube today (31/1/25) on No Carb Life channel, 'Carnivore Fixed Everything in a Few Months!' Brian talks about his experience of going on the carnivore diet, and how it has put his fibrillating heart back in sinus rhythm.
I agree with all those above who say that scientists need to understand why AFib happens before it can be cured - otherwise how would they know what to target? It’s possible, of course, that they could discover this while researching something else, as in your example of electricity. But a lot of research has gone into treating AFib and managing it successfully, which is why a lot of us are on medication such as amiodarone, flecainide, propafenone etc. The idea that there could be a one-off pill to cure AFib seems way beyond the bounds of possibility. For example, I have always had a degree of arrhythmia because I have a short PR interval and that is just the way my heart is structured. So I need to be on long term medication unless I have an ablation, but it is very successful. And don’t forget that ablation is a “cure” in many cases: there are a lot of people who have one ablation and that’s it, but for obvious reasons you won’t usually find them on fora like this. So I’m glad for all the research that’s been done on developing new and improved forms of ablation, and I don’t think for one minute that the aim is to keep them coming back rather than to cure.
Actually ablation now doesn’t get you off of anticoagulats. . The latest research surprisingly says that ablation doesn’t lower stroke risk. I know that doesn’t make sense, but look it up or talk to your doctor. Ablation makes symptoms more comfortable for people that are uncomfortable when they have a fib, but it doesn’t allow you to get off anticoagulants. So I wouldn’t really consider it a cure because the only reason I would do it is to get off anticoagulants. Also, one and done ablation is only a 50% success especially after a few years. The percentage goes down from there. It’s a tough spot we’re all in. All the best!
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