Vagus nerve

[Marymara]

Hi everyone, I think iv worked out, we are all trying to work out what we should not eat to trigger AF, I don't think its what you eat, I think its the vagus nerve being triggered by any foods, any one agree.

[meadfoot]

I have told my EP over many years that its not necessarily the food itself which triggers my arrhythmias rather it is the activity of eating and swallowing. Sometimes its gas in my oesophagus and stomach which kicks off my arrhythmias too. This happened to me this morning when I got gas while eating my cereal.

He believes me thank goodness and understands the mechanics. Its taken years to get it accepted by my medics. Finding a solution though is another matter altogether. I am very careful with my diet too to minimise foods or drinks which exacerbate the issue.

[Cavalierrubie in reply to meadfoot]

I agree Meadfoot. Even my ectopics are accompanied by gas. In fact, when l have a build up of gas, it’s when l know l am in AF. Such a complex, mongrel condition. TBH., l certainly can’t fathom this mystery and conclude that it has a mind of its own and that it’s a combination of many things going on in the body that we are unable to piece together. . For example, cheese can be a trigger for me but not always. …. Not being defeatist, but why waste time trying to find out and not succeed? I think getting on with life is the best cure.

[Marymara in reply to Cavalierrubie]

So good to hear, people in agreement.I read on here time after time trying to work out the food that triggers AF, when I had my first episode it was after a cheese and pickle sandwich, went to A&E ,doctor said it was probably the pickle, somehow I didn't believe him, I didn't eat any cheese for a year just in case, I was younger and scared, but have come to believe through experience, nothing to do with what you eat, unless certain foods make a lot more gas maybe,Iv yet to work that out.

[Cavalierrubie in reply to Marymara]

The good old motto for AF “Everything in moderation.” Apart from that, we do the best we can for ourselves to have the best quality of life. Until they know the cause, they can only treat the symptoms. We live in hope, but don’t think this will happen in my lifetime. Look after yourself.

[Cliff_G in reply to Cavalierrubie]

Yes, it's complex and over the years I have also learned that it's not just gut =>> heart but if the heart is irritable for other reasons, it can also be heart =>> gut. That's when the wind starts. If I was under control on Flecainide my gut problems were usually pretty absent, but again if I created a bad gut problem then it woudl set off the burps, ectos and fib.

[mjames1 in reply to meadfoot]

Sometimes its gas in my oesophagus and stomach which kicks off my arrhythmias too.

If you haven't already, you should look into the low FODMAP diet. Not a cure, but It has helped many, including myself, with arrhythmias.

Jim

[meadfoot in reply to mjames1]

I am very fortunate to have an excellent EP who on agreeing the connection between heart and gut refereed me to a consultant gastroenterologist at his hospital who ran many in depth tests. They now work together to my benefit to try to minimise the symptoms. The gastroenterologist put me on low FODMAP diet via his dietician back on 2021. I modify it to my bodies reactions ongoing. Given the oesophagus proximity to the heart its little wonder they can interact to our detriment is it. Happy days. Stay well.

[Cliff_G in reply to meadfoot]

"Its taken years to get it accepted by my medics"

Unfortunately not finding its way into the AF Guidelines, though.

[meadfoot in reply to Cliff_G]

Too true.

[Singwell in reply to meadfoot]

Same here.

[meadfoot in reply to Singwell]

Horrid isnt it.

[secondtry in reply to meadfoot]

Are you a quick eater?

[meadfoot in reply to secondtry]

No I am so slow I lag behind everyone else eating.

[secondtry in reply to meadfoot]

That's interesting. I only ask because someone here recently mentioned it as a possible contributory issue. I eat far too fast and am guessing that may produce too much gas in my system as I swallow too much air with the food 🤔.

[meadfoot in reply to secondtry]

Thats why I eat so slowly so as to avoid gas. I also try not to talk mid eating as taking in extra air while talking adds to the gas issue. My gastro consultant told me that.

[BenHall1]

Well this subject is all in vogue now..... it certainly wasn't when I was first diagnosed back in Jan 2010 ... when by Sept 2010 I had firmly identified food as the trigger for my AF events. BUT - it wasn't just food it was the ingredients .... food in itself is a vague, wishy washy term .... it is very much the ingredients, how they are treated in the cooking process and even how the wretched stuff is grown by farmers etc ! and what the farmers put on their crops with insecticides !

My start point was my symptoms, diahorrea, burping, intestinal gurgling and intense pain on the left lower ribs. The pain was the worst of all and actually kicked off the AF. Went to my GP who had me tested for IBS and Coeliac Disease. All clear. He offered me more tests I refused. Instead I consulted a Nutritionist .......... the best move ever as good as I am totally clear BUT I really do have to be incredibly careful as to food I eat. Food carelessness will do anything to me, my gut, and INFLAME my Vagal Nerve. I can go years without a problem, but a moment of carelesssness with a choice of food will do it. TBH, I abandoned many foods however, some I have been able to return to in recent years. 14 years is a damn long experiment with food stuff !

Based on my experience ......... a GP is pretty useless in this setting, even crack hot shot consultants I wouldn't trust .... a Nutritionist is the way to go.

For many other folk drinks, hot or cold, alcoholic or non alcoholic will do it. Unfortunately, the mindset in medical UK has a relatively closed mind to research compared to the USA which is more advanced in its approach to the conundrum of AF, Vagal Nerve, and food problem solving. Things are improving, but slowly .... in my view the UK is still at the mindset of ........... "well, we've always done things like this" .....

John

[Marymara in reply to BenHall1]

I don't understand why sometimes the same food starts my AF but sometimes it doesn't???

[Cliff_G in reply to Marymara]

"I don't understand why sometimes the same food starts my AF but sometimes it doesn't???"

Marymara, see my post about the balance involved

[MikeThePike in reply to Marymara]

Simple, its not the food that's triggering the AF.

[RF260 in reply to BenHall1]

Very interesting about the rib pain..I had heart attack in April, then from memory sometime in June I started getting pain in my left side in the rib area which I put down to muscular from painting a ceiling... Then last week went to see GP as had been getting chest pain (which I think was trying to reduce doses of Amlodopine and bisoprolol and has now largely resolved since doses are now back up) and GP said irregular heartbeat, confirmed by ECG , so is the rib pain likely to have been an early symptom of AF ? Thanks

[Cavalierrubie in reply to BenHall1]

I agree with your reply John. I am of the opinion that those researching for the cause of AF should probably be looking at the gut and digestion. Additives in our food that are unnatural must be toxic to the body. Long term ingestion must be unhealthy and could cause many problems, not just AF. It would be a catastrophe for the global food industry and world order if this was true. Call me small minded, but there are times when I think we should be going backwards instead of forwards if this is what is termed as progress!

[secondtry in reply to Cavalierrubie]

Food choice on the surface should be relatively easy to improve but isn't. Only this week my favourite local independently owned posh deli was uncovered - I ordered a salmon quiche & Persian black rice salad for an event and was astonished and the bad ingredients included. One more place not to visit!!

[Cavalierrubie in reply to secondtry]

😊I think if you eat healthy foods most of the time and prepare your own meals with natural ingredients then the odd meal out is probably ok, but then you need to check what is actually in the meal. Perhaps go for the blandest one on the menu and don't overeat. It is difficult, I agree, but this is how food preparation has become. All ready meals have preservatives etc. Perhaps local chippie next time you have a treat? 😀

[Cliff_G in reply to BenHall1]

Afib, wind etc., and testing foods was how I found I was wheat intolerant. Ironically, when I gave up wheat totally, instead of my fib going away I went into nearly permanent AF and had to go get an ablation!

[MikeThePike in reply to BenHall1]

What I don't get is all this talk about food per se when we have been happily eating the same foods all our life before we had problems. So what exactly changed? It can't be the food.

[dunestar in reply to MikeThePike]

I have the feeling it's the food in combination with some underlying issue with the heart. For a while now my ECGs have shown up "left axis deviation" which is something to do with how the electric impulses run through my heart. I think it's the two together which cause the problem.

[BenHall1 in reply to MikeThePike]

Food is a generalisation. It is the ingredients and how they do or do not impact and inflame the vagal nerve. One tiny example is that I can eat hard cheeses with no side effects BUT soft cheeses upset my gut and have tipped me into AF.

[mjames1 in reply to BenHall1]

In general, hard cheese, contain less lactose and are more FODMAP, friendly than soft cheeses. For me and many others, lower FODMAP foods are the safest re afib.

Jim

[Cliff_G]

Yes, but not just the vagus nerve.

Anything which affects the vagus nerve can set off an AF attack, usual culprits are after food, particularly a large meal or particular foods for some folk, at night, anything which slows your heart rate (some drugs incl beta blockers which are felt by some (including me) to be contra-indicated in vagal AF), in the recovery period after high heart rate exercise, straining on the toilet. Conversely, if you're in AF, anything which puts your rate up can sometimes stop an attack - I used to go and run up a couple of flights of stairs at the office and it would often convert me.

But, it's not just the vagus nerve, it's the balance between the adrenergic/sympathetic drive making your hear go faster vs the parasympathetic/vagal drive making the heart go slower. Over many years I observed that it was when these got out of balance my AF would kick off. This balance and the trickiness of it is why you can't always reproduce symptoms on demand.

If you're interested, look up Professor Coumel, the French Cardiologist who first described it (he stressed he didn't "invent" it). There's a classic book on AF by Falk and Podrid and he wrote a chapter in some of the earlier editions but they got replaced in later editions. Also some papers around, not sure if there any on the web

[secondtry in reply to Cliff_G]

Thanks Cliff, Prof Coumel has been mentioned before, I need to do my homework on his studies.

[Cliff_G]

See

academic.oup.com/eurheartjs...

and

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Article by Coumel but paywalled onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...

[108cat in reply to Cliff_G]

Hi Cliff

Thanks very much for the link.

It gives the best description of the two 'types' of AF I've come across since my cardiologist said I had the 'vagal type' (night time PAF due to low resting heart rate etc.) It also mentions that the two types can coexist in the same patients:

I'm beginning to feel in my case PAF isn't caused by specific triggers but many different kinds of physical/mental/emotional stress or shock, from eating an ice cream, dehydration, doing too much physically etc. I've learned so much from the different things people post on this forum, and try to simplify my life accordingly, and also reduce stress as much as possible. I know I stressed out my system over an eighteen month period a few years ago, and I think that may have caused my nervous system to be out of kilter.

I find Yogic breathing with a longer outbreath can slow the heart in PAF. There's also a practice called 'coherent breathing' which you probably know about where the aim is to balance the breath.

youtube.com/watch?v=QH8qkaZ...(Not working as expected?)

Thanks again for posting this link, very helpful.

Take care

Cat

[WildIris]

I recently had to go on prednisone for a serious allergic reaction to Paxlovid, and prednisone gave me easily triggered aFib, which made me anxious, its been so long, I wasn't sleeping and I had this awful itchy rash all over as well. Before that, (and now), I had stabilized my heart with a kidney diet, all plant-based, no sweeteners, not much processed food, moderate exercise. I just wonder what prednisone and not enough sleep do to the parasympathetic system.

[WildIris]

I don't know if I have vagal AF or not, after reading the NCBI article. I never get it at night, but most often get it after eating. I don't have heart disease, but do have an artificial aortic valve and began getting AF after the valve replacement procedure.

[Lilypocket]

Since my ablation in 2022 I have had 3 episodes of AF ( of about 1h30 on average)Triggers? Um drinking Camomile tea and nibbling on a banana and the second and third times after walking upstairs and then drinking some room temperature water. Very odd but I think the vagus nerve may have some involvement ,🤔

[Jajarunner]

My trigger is usually sleep 💤

[Cavalierrubie in reply to Jajarunner]

That’s not nice. Just goes to show how diverse and difficult this all is. You are the first person l know to experience this, but l don’t expect you are alone. Usually it’s the other way around. It must have something to do with you being horizontal? So many questions with no answers, so many theories and assumptions that prove fruitless.

[secondtry in reply to Jajarunner]

Maybe try 3 pillows.

[Singwell]

I think the key thing is- the vagus is a headliner in the digestive system. There's a reason why we refer to the job of the the vagus as'rest and digest'. It's a complex nerve or conduit really, with many pathways - mostly on the parasympathetic nervous system- but there's one older dorsal branch that apparently is on the sympathetic system (so flight fight freeze etc).

My understanding of the digestive branch of the vagus is that it is active in telling our system how much acid to release during digestion. I know this because my own vagus has been severed at the digestive end and my stomach does not make acid.

In terms of eating - swallowing, chewing etc. Most muscles of the larynx and pharynx are also served by the vagus so it's a key player in how we manage our food intake.

So if food appears to be a trigger in AF, how we manage our digestion is critical in my experience.

[momist]

Yes; everyone looks for triggers. Yes; the vagus nerve can launch an AF session, especially if you've been over hungry, and then over indulge (on anything).

I've stopped looking for 'triggers', I don't believe any longer that any one thing will cause AF. Much better to relax and stop looking, and just live your life as best you can and put up with whatever happens. Look after yourself, don't get too hot or too cold, don't take sudden ice cold drinks or huge ice creams, eat mindfully. etc. etc.

[Cavalierrubie in reply to momist]

I agree absolutely and might l just add, to be thankful that we have been diagnosed (lots are not), that it is treatable, not terminal and that we don’t have something more serious.

[Broseley]

I keep mentioning here, the effectiveness of ginger root capsules to treat vagal nerve AF. It helps relieve the trapped wind, which I find particularly after a high carb meal. Also magnesium. You can take both on a regular basis for long term relief.

[Swimsyroke]

Since starting 20mg Atorvastatin I have regular intestinal wind which I never used to have and is quite embarrassing at times so I haven't much chance then of stopping the afib symptoms

[Peacefulneedshelp]

Yes, I also agree. In fact I have read articles on this. Having a sensitivity or an allergy to a food can cause different issues in different people. have you noticed that sometime after eating you feel more anxious than usual? I do. Look at ingredients and there may be a chemical or a food additive that slipped in causing issues. So many chemicals in our food. Which in turn could trigger a Vegas nerve reaction. Just my thoughts.

[Brufti]

My wife suffers AF attacks and we have discovered that Acetic Acid is the trigger. Not natural 🍋 n juice but chemically manufactured. More and more foodstuffs contain it. We now have to carefully read ingredient labels and try to avoid acetic scid

[DawnTX]

I agree it is not what but how much. I have found it is the over eating that will very quickly give me palpitations and worse even with my pacemaker. What I am finding also is anything too cold such as ice cream. Not only do I get an ice cream headache but usually the first thing I get is a chest pain, almost as if the ice cream hit center with cold it doesn’t last long, but it happens almost every time unless I take my time with my ice cream the last time I thought it was my sangria, but then I realized I had ice in it so it was very cold. these are the two ways I find eating gives me problems. The restaurant we go to is known for being generous with the food had tried something new and really really liked it lol I cleaned my plate. I should not have next time. I plan on bringing home leftovers