Vagolytic a fib?

[Spud12345]

Is it ?vagolytic a fib when it occurs after you go to bed? And does it help to ?increase vagol tone and how??

[BobD Volunteer]

Vagal mediated is the usual term.

[Spud12345 in reply to BobD]

Thanks that’s it

[Hidden]

It's not the cause of vagolytic Afib Spud12345, but it can be a cause, along with digestive process causes, (spicy food, heavy meal etc). Exercise can improve tone, especially endurance training. And also singing, humming or chanting, believe it or not!

[CDreamer in reply to Hidden]

Endurance Exercise can exacerbate vagal AF - that’s why so many elite and endurance athletes suffer AF. Athletes can get obsessed with HRV - heart rate variability - which is an indicator of vagal tone but keeping exercise within tolerances is important. I’m always interested in just how many cyclists are on this forum for example.

[Spud12345 in reply to CDreamer]

My heart rate variability goes sky high when I go into a fib. But no warning prior to the spike and it’s not from exercise

[CDreamer in reply to Spud12345]

Well it will do! You will be irregular because if the AF but that’s a little different.

[secondtry]

I had vagally mediated AF and I would suggest you try last meal at 5.30pm, reduce all stress in the evening (i.e. no horror/violence movies), no alcohol and do an hour of Mindfullness/other mind relaxing exercises before getting into bed. No downside risk and it may help.

[Jpot34 in reply to secondtry]

And get adjusted at a chiropractor.

[Spud12345 in reply to Jpot34]

I go to the chiropractor once a month to Aline my thoracic cervical area which was twisted /tight from years of poor posture

[Jpot34 in reply to Spud12345]

Once a week for me for my neck, and lower back. Seems to help reduce my Afib attacks. Mine is definitely vagal. My attacks only happen when I'm in bed.

[CDreamer]

Vagal AF is when the Autonomic Nervous System of which the vagus nerve is part, is irritated in some way. This can be brought on by stress, certain food triggers, postural or exercise.

This is an excellent article explaining the whys and wherefors of why it should be considered and how it may affect the drugs or treatment plans.

richardbogle.com/blog/vagal...

Rosy G was telling me that Dr Bogle spoke at one of their AF meetings.

You can increase vagal tone through lifestyle changes but the BEST way of increasing vagal tone is by learning to breath properly through you nose, not mouth and certain breathing exercises. Cold showers help, singing, humming or chanting excellent, avoiding certain foods or beverages.

Hope that helps.

[Spud12345 in reply to CDreamer]

Thank you it is an excellent resource

[Jajarunner]

Interesting. Mine always comes on at night too !

[Spud12345 in reply to Jajarunner]

I’m going to try eating earlier do abdominal exercises and hum in the evening

[Ppiman]

My cardiologist doesn't accept that the vagal nerve causes afib except rarely, even though I do get what you describe, but usually only as ectopic beats (PACs). I was told that irritation of the vagal nerve, if it were happening, would cause bradycardia, first and foremost (which I do get but not badly).

I was told that what might well happen when lying down in bed is that the gastric system pushes up against the diaphragm which then touches and mildly irritates the base of the heart. This, I was told, is a natural process, but one that, in prone individuals, can set off ectopic beats and, from these, fibrillation.

Steve

[Hidden in reply to Ppiman]

That absolutely makes sense to me Steve!

[Ppiman in reply to Hidden]

Mine’s been off all morning, tachycardia and ectopic beats mainly, thankfully. and I’m sure it’s from my stomach being bloated thanks to the hiatus hernia.

What a life, at times!

Steve

[Hidden in reply to Ppiman]

Oh dear Steve, excuse my smiling but I ate a cheese and onion crisp (or two) too many yesterday evening and woke up in Afib in the early hours! (I have a hiatus hernia too). The question for me is "when will I ever learn?" Indeed, what a life! I'm OK again now and I hope yours settles soon too!

[Ppiman in reply to Hidden]

I’ve just bought myself a little ECG machine which arrives later. At least I’ll have something to use it for.

I’ve just had to return home as the road is blocked with traffic queuing for Tesco’s garage. What a mess thugs petrol issue is becoming.

[Jpot34 in reply to Ppiman]

Your doctor is clueless! Vagal Afib is real, and chiropractors can help.

[CDreamer in reply to Jpot34]

Chiro has both stoped AF - temporarily - and inadvertently triggered it - but luckily was quickly able to reverse it. I’m hyper mobile so keeping my spine aligned has been essential! Chiropratice alone doesn’t help longer term though unless you do the rehab & maintain good posture.

[Ppiman]

Well, I hope not! He performed a successful ablation procedure on me. Also, he's a leading clinician in the cardiology department of a major UK teaching hospital. You know, I understand your emotion, but, really, I do doubt that he is clueless.

Also, my experience with chiropractors doesn't mirror your own; in fact, I have come to doubt that they can know what they are doing at times, since they work with a general, as opposed to a particular, awareness of an individual's physiology and anatomy. My cardiologist, on the contrary, has access to my echocardiograms and to a stress gadolinium MRI imaging scan to inform them of the particular aspects of my condition.

I understood from him that pressure on the vagal nerve is a medical reality but is unusual, something that can be caused by tumours and large hiatal hernias. Such vagal irritation would lead to inhibition of the sympathetic nervous system, the consequences of which would be classical peripheral vasodilation, bradycardia and hypotension.

I would think - from what I have read - that arrythmias other than bradycardia are more likely to be caused not by vagal irritation but by other mechanisms. One that is of interest to me, having a hiatus hernia, is physical irritation of the heart from the diaphragm, rather than from the vagus nerve.

The diaphragm can naturally become forced upwards by a swollen stomach and gastric system (i.e. from certain postures, individual anatomy, the presence of gastric and intestinal gas, etc.); other causes can be from swallowing where the oesophagus can physically compress the atrium, as well as from gastro-oesophageal reflux disease which can cause oesophageal movement leading to the same physical irritation of the heart. These gastric effects are well documented and can cause ectopic arrhythmia, which can lead to tachycardia and fibrillation.

Not clueless!

[CDreamer in reply to Ppiman]

As far as I am concerned as my Chiro was the first to diagnose my Myasthenia and pushed to get me the right help, has helped me with coping with so many conditions and incidentally trained for 9 years before being gaining his license, longer than my GP.

I trust my Chiro who is savvy enough to know what he can help with and what and when to refer and works with hospital doctors, not against. Thankfully both my EP and Neuro agree that at best he does no harm (unlike many of the medications prescribed) and at best improve my QOL in a way that they just cannot.

If you have never suffered from spinal misalignment consider yourself very lucky as you cannot understand the very many problems it can cause including vagal AF.

[Ppiman in reply to CDreamer]

I don't doubt you have a very "savvy" chiropractor, but I would say that you are lucky and, in general, surely there can be no comparison between them and a medical specialist? Access to clinical diagnostics is a prerequisite of much modern treatment and chiros don't have access to this, at least in the UK. Our friend's daughter has MG and I know from their and her experience how difficult it was initially to diagnose. Luckily she seems to have a mild case now, or, at least, it is in remission.

I do have both cervical and lumbar issues, thankfully, currently stable, and my experience with a chiropractor was that, while he was an excellent chap in every possible way, he couldn't help my neck problems at all. To be fair, he didn't charge me for the half-dozen or so sessions. My wife's back troubles are worse, but experience was similar, except that she was charged a great deal overall, with no success.

Steve

[CDreamer in reply to Ppiman]

Obviously it depends and my Chiro does have X-ray so can at least check but it is a different practice altogether so I agree you can’t compare but I do believe that each can complement the other’s practice if both parties are open. Adjustments are not a cure all either but along with rehab exercises - which his wife specialises in - they’ve really helped me but we each have different difficulties and experiences.

[Ppiman in reply to CDreamer]

I think you've been lucky. At the end of the day, to have someone looking after us who is rational, intelligent and educated - as well as caring - can be a wonderful thing.

There must be great swathes of what he does, however, that are objectively unexplainable.

Steve

[Spud12345 in reply to CDreamer]

Agree