Parasympathetic Nervous System - Vagus Nerve

[CDreamer]

As many of you know along with AF I suffer from a relatively rare (we think?) condition called Myasthenia gravis which is a neuro muscular condition which most people haven’t heard of but has a similar affect to MS but through a different mechanism.

For over 7 years I have been chasing missing bits of how Autonomic/AF/Myasthenia were connected and it turns out I knew all the time but was just lacking a little basic neuro science knowledge. Well there’s a surprise!

Acetycholine is a neurotransmitter the lack of which is the underlying cause of Myasthenia gravis so I take a drug which is an Acetycholineterase ie:- Choline + Acetic acid Co Enzyme.

Way back I noticed that after about 2 years taking this drug most of my symptoms of Autonomic disorder disappeared ie:- PoTS, low blood pressure, frequent tachycardias, brain fog etc. No idea how or why, it was just an observation and if I search for it (which I intend to do as one advantage of blogging is that you can revisit all of your posts) I will reread.

Now what has all this to do with AF? I am still not too sure however - the new bit of information is Acetycholine is the main neurotransmitter of the Parasympathetic Nervous System.

If you still haven’t a clue what I’m talking about - you may be aware or heard of Vagus Nerve.

Anyone who believes that there AF is triggered by food reactions or posture, rest or exercising is likely to have some degree of vagus dysfunction and vagus nerve is part of the Parasympathetic Nervous System and what is the main neurotransmitter of the Parasympathetic Nervous System? Acetycholine.

Now unless you have Myasthenia gravis or you have been poisoned by nerve gas (the drug is part of the antidote) you won’t get prescribed the drug BUT there are specific foods which are thought to increase Acetycholine so I found this article quite interesting as I have recently had to nearly double my dose of the drug I take to keep pace.

healthline.com/nutrition/ac...

Anyone with vagal AF may also be interested.

[Hidden]

Thanks for that CD .... I've saved your post to return to later in the day 🙂

[Finvola]

Interesting CD - so many things are interlinked and the role of the vagus nerve plays such a large part. Well done with your research - may it help many.

[baba]

Myasthenia gravis is a really horrible disease.

[CDreamer in reply to baba]

It is but I am lucky in that the meds work for me and for the last few years although not in remission, I am medically stable, more or less. Back in the day before a lot of the modern drugs about one third of people died. My uncle, a GP who retired back in the 1980’s, hadn’t heard of any of the medications I take but then very few GPs ever come across it.

It was just an observation that back in about 2016 I happened to notice that since taking the Acetycholineterase to control the symptoms of Mg, all my Dystomia symptoms lessened and disappeared as well.

[CDreamer]

All you’ve said is relevant and important. What is interesting however is how come some people are reactive AF/BP/Heart rate wise when others not?

What I am wondering though is what’s happening or not, at the chemical level to make the Parasympathetic Nervous System over reactive and on constant alert. A feeling I know that many will resonate with. That feeling is a sensation alerting that something is wrong & in the early days I called it my ‘pre-cursor’ to an episode of AF.

What if all the time the alert was ‘I’m not getting enough Acetycholine and being a system which relies upon a good supply to work - warning - I’m going to go haywire- literally?

I always called it an adrenaline rush but then adrenaline is part of the Parasympathetic Nervous system.

[jeanjeannie50]

Wow, thanks for sharing that CD. It's interesting to see what foods could help too. I'll certainly be increasing my intake of them in the hope it will improve my AF, as well as my dreadful memory. I had just put an egg on to boil before I saw your post - it's a sign!!!Lol. 😊

[CDreamer in reply to jeanjeannie50]

I love eggs but they have had such a bad press since the times we were told to ‘go to work on an egg’! Nutritionalist that I consulted thought they contained the most perfect balance of protein, fat and carbohydrate of any food.

[jeanjeannie50 in reply to CDreamer]

I find I feel more alive when eggs are part of my diet. If I eat them late in the day they appear to prevent me falling to sleep that night. A few months ago I bought some extra large eggs and I found eating the yellow yolks totally repulsive and had to throw the whole lot away. I was very aware that it was the foetus of a baby chick, never had I given that a thought before. I also read that it was causing pain for the hens to lay very large eggs, never will I eat bigger than medium now. Poor hens!

[dunestar]

Thanks for this post. Lots of food for thought!

[rosyG]

Very helpful. It seems we have to eat choline rich foods to help access to acetylcholine ???

[CDreamer in reply to rosyG]

Basically yes. The actual science is complicated & I am struggling to truly understand it but acetycholine & Parasympathetic NS is mentioned in the Dr John Day book The AFib Cure - which is what put me on the trail. It’s quite complex but anaesthestists seem to be much more aware of how it works, simply because it’s important in use of GA during procedures.

The problem in Mg is that the immune system destroys acetycholine & the receptors at the nerve synapse. Heart ganglia have been mentioned. As you know - I like to know how everything works!

If I find an easy to understand graphic I’ll post.

[rosyG in reply to CDreamer]

Sabine Enerst did ablation trial of GP ganglia. Worth looking at that.Ganglionated plexi are small areas of vagal tissue in heart

[CDreamer in reply to rosyG]

Yes I remember that, thanks for reminder, I’ll have a look.

[manabouttown]

Very interesting. So are you saying that eating liver is good at preventing AF?

[CDreamer in reply to manabouttown]

Not at all and I can’t understand how you got to that conclusion from my post, which was about Auotonomic Dysfunction - which AF could be a part of if vagal.

I’m suggesting that Acetycholine production is the most important neurotransmitter for Parasympathetic Nervous system, part of which is vagus nerve.

If you have vagal AF it may help to be aware of foods which boost Acetycholine production, which may mean a better functioning ANS which may reduce that sense of doom which many have with AF and may help the ANS be not as reactive thereby lessening some people’s symptoms.

[CDreamer in reply to manabouttown]

PS - Concerning your previous post on Flecainide and BP. You had a question about BP systolic/diastolic and whether or not Flecainide could alter diastolic which I think Carneuny came back with something that is starting to be talked about MAP = mean arterial pressure which involves a calculation between Systolic/Diastolic pressures as a possible indicator for heart events and Pulse Pressure. I just found a link when looking for something which gives an explanation which reminded me of your question and thought you may find it of interest:-

mayoclinic.org/diseases-con...

Please note the word ‘might’ but maybe worth speaking with your doctor about?

[Auriculaire]

Thank you CD . This is very interesting. Fluoroquinolone antibiotics are not supposed to be given to people with MG as it can lead to a life threatening exacerbation of the condition. People without MG who have reactions to FQs often have severe disturbance of the nervous system with onset of autonomic disorders. I wonder if they interfere with acetyl choline production? I will have to do some research on this and maybe eat more liver!

[CDreamer in reply to Auriculaire]

Exactly. We are still joining up the dots.

There are SO many substances that interfere and are dangerous for Mg'ers, including Magnesium and quinine in tonic water and anything with anti- is always suspect. There are quite a few antibiotics which are very dangerous and when I go for infection if it's a GP I don't know we have to go through a long list to find an effective one I might tolerate. Similar for anaesthesia and sedation - I didn't recover from ablation after sedation which led eventually to my diagnosis. I've only been in a life threatening situation once - during an AF episode on a train station and it's very scary when you cannot speak, open your eyes or indicate because you can't move. Thankfully my husband was with me, I had felt it coming on and managed to get a tablet down me whilst I could swallow and the Paramedics eventually cottoned on that this was in addition to my Heart problems.

Thankfully the drugs act in a matter of moments so all returned to normal within about 10 minutes but very scary.

[Auriculaire]

That sounds awful. Quinine is interesting. The original quinolone (before they added fluorine to help penetration) antibiotic nalidixic acid was discovered as a contaminant in a batch of chloroquine. It goes back to the core quinoline ring which is toxic and in my opinion is a very dodgy base for "medicine".

[belindalore]

It's so interesting to read your posts. You have so much information. And it seems there are so many different things that affect the vagus nerve. Many reasons why the vagus nerve may not function as it should. Your illness being one reason. Then there is genetic . As John6 said, our posture. If sometime in our life the nerve was injured in some way. Being overweight, alcoholism, doing illicit drugs, on and on. The sad thing is not many Drs even consider the vagus nerve being connected to Afib. That I don't understand. We always say the brain is the computer of the body. To me it's the vagus nerve. Someday I hope Drs will be Drs again and not just throw pills at patients. In the meantime thank goodness for people like you CDreamer. You do so much research and help others at least have an idea what could be causing their problems. You really put many, many Drs to shame. And they should be shamed. And maybe quit trying to be Drs and become ditch diggers instead. 😌Take care.