Vagal AF

[Blooto]

What is Vagal AF? no medic has ever mentioned it to me, they diagnosed AF and thats it! However I have always suspected perhaps wrongly that beta blockers actually made the AF more frequent over time until it became permanent.

[Hidden]

Hi Blooto,

Vagal AF refers to AF brought on by a dysfunctional/inflammed Vagal Nerve (VN). The VN can also have a loss of vagal tone.

Suggest you do a bit of 'googling', Google, Vagal Nerve, also Google Vagal Nerve schematic Diagram which will show you how the VN wanders through the body.

The VN is basically an information superhighway communicating to and from the brain and a number of organs, significantly the heart and digestive system. So some food or drinks taken can 'upset' the vagal nerve and bring on an AF event. Food eaten in large portions and/or late in the evening can bring on an AF event between 2 and 4 am while a person is asleep. However, sleeping on ones left side in many people can also bring on an AF event.

Just wondering why you blame the beta blockers for making the AF more permanent ?

The problem with 'Western Medicine' is that it is all about specialisation and if 'something' doesn't fit the mould/discipline of a cardiac consultant then ye are doomed. The VN is more likely to be understood by a gastroenterologist than a cardiologist - although that seems to be changing a little.

hope this helps,

John

[Blooto in reply to Hidden]

Im not blaming the beta blockers as I cant be sure, but my AF was infrequent, however after being prescribed beta blockers it seemed to worsen quite quickly. If i had my time again I would of prefered to just take warfarin and see what happened regarding the AF.

[Hidden in reply to Blooto]

Hi,

My feelings are that beta blockers would not make the AF worse. The speed and accuracy of AF diagnosis and treatment started is more likely to influence how AF behaves, moving forward. If your medical team are slow with diagnosis or are in denial that a sufferer has it and it takes weeks or months (as is often the case) to diagnose it and start treatment, then the natural progression is, yes, it will worsen of its own free will .......... and that assumes you have no other cardiac issues.

In my case, from initial onset to diagnosis and start of treatment ......... 9 hours. I haven't read of anyone's experiences being that quick. I feel (but cannot prove) that such a speedy and accurate diagnosis stopped my hearts electrical circuits being well stuffed up, in other words, my medical team were that quick AF never got a chance to get a grip on me.

The thing is when I was diagnosed nobody said anything about vagal AF. So, my consultants first line of action was Bisoprolol then Warfarin. I've been on both ever since (8 years plus). It was only many, many months after diagnosis that I began to relate the onset of AF to food I'd eaten. Then I read some comments on the previous, old yahoo website, about vagal nerve. Then it began to make sense. Ever since, and with the help of a Nutritionist I've worked on the basis, calm the digestive system, calm the vagal nerve and the heart will calm itself naturally. It has worked now for three and half years except for the one glitch when I was sleeping on my left side.

[CDreamer]

You may find this helpful

psychologytoday.com/gb/blog...

There are people with vagal AF - ie AF will often be triggered by lying in a particular position and wake with AF or it may be triggered by certain foods, eating a large meal or exercising.

I am not sure if beta blockers will make AF worse, I very much doubt it as they are often first drug prescribed after anticoagulants, not nice drugs to take and certainly if you have asthma or vagal AF not recommended.

Lifestyle changes, avoiding triggers and nutritional advice can all help reduce the AF burden by reducing inflammation - vagal nerve inflammation is often rooted in gut flora inbalance.

Look for the Dr Gupta - York Cardiology not the US guy - videos on Vagal AF on YouTube or on this forum, he often talks about vagal AF and there are several websites devoted entirely to Vagal AF. Also look at the STARS website - part of the AFA who run this forum and read up on Autonomic Dysfunction.

[Ianc2 in reply to CDreamer]

Would you have any more information on Gut flora imbalance?

[CDreamer in reply to Ianc2]

Probably too much PM me with your email & I can send you some detailed information.

[secondtry]

John has given his usual excellent reply.

These days you have to expect to get involved with your diagnosis and treatment as a lot won't be mentioned by your cardiologist or EP, the good news is your have found this Forum, which has proved an essential part of the 'jigsaw' in mine and many others current quality of life.

My take on the Vagus Nerve is that through stress, digestion issues or infection/inflammation the nerve can get over stimulated, which in turn increases the risk of an AF episode; other factors may contribute to reach the trigger point. In addition, as the VN has to travel through the pinch point of the neck to get to the brain many here find lying on the left side in bed is too much pressure on it and is to be avoided.

[Bagrat]

Have a feeling I've read beta blockers not a good choice for vagal af, ? affect vagal tone but alas for the grey cells can't remember where I read it.

[seasider18]

Any kind of GI distress can put pressure on the nerve and irritate it, with a hiatal hernia being a frequent culprit. Poor posture along with muscular imbalances can also cause the vagus nerve to misfire, as can excess alcohol or spicy foods. Stress can inflame the nerve, along with fatigue and anxiety.

At one time surgeons used to sever the vagus nerve (Vagotomy) on patients with peptic ulcers. It cured the ulcers but led to worse problems

The vagotomy reduced the acid secretion and ultimately led to the deficiency, which, if left untreated, caused nerve damage, tiredness, dementia, paranoia, and ultimately death.

[Buffafly in reply to seasider18]

😱!!!!!! And as a fashionable treatment went the way of lobotomy, haemorrhoidectomy and early tonsillectomy I presume.....

[djmnet]

I've also read that the use of beta blockers in patients with vagally mediated AF is not recommended as they tend to cause paroxysmal AF to progress to permanent AF.

[Blooto in reply to djmnet]

Yes I thought that so the AF should be diagnosed more carefully as to whether its Vagal or not and only then decide on the drugs to be taken.

[Hidden in reply to djmnet]

As I said to Blooto just now, with me nobody diagnosed vagal AF. I was diagnosed with paroxysmal AF .... in 9 hours - I've since treated the vagal nerve with a less damaging diet and my AF has not worsened - it has now over a period of 3 and half years gone, except for one incident (Feb 2018) lasting around 5 hours brought on by my sleeping on my left side.

All that said, I regard AF is the least trustworthy thing I can think of ( except for politicians) and I am ready for anything