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Kardia - does it detect Atrial Flutter

I know this has been mentioned before- I still haven’t purchased the Kardia mobile- I am having what you might say normal/ 😕 problems after my second ablation. Five weeks post ablation I talked to my EP s nurse - told her RHR was still high , BP ok and re- affirmed my apprehension about continuing on Amiodarone- Dr called back and said I should get an EKG- sure enough I am in atrial flutter so now scheduled for fourth cardio version since ablation 😩. Normally I feel the fib- but really not feeling this flutter/ just wondering if Kardia would detect the flutter?.

Oh she did say they will be adjusting my meds (again) since they are not working. and not to worry still in my post ablation healling period

Thank you for your replies- I am appreciative of the opportunity to hear from others- wish we had a local AFIB support group. Be nice to sit and talk over water- just kidding- coffee is probably afibbers choice - although I drink decaf tea and coffee

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Kardia does show flutter if you know how to interpret it but not worth getting for that. Flutter is just felt as a fast HR because the impulses from the atria are blocked in a regular way.

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Thank you

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Tantaanna,whereabouts are you? I've often wished for a support group too!

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I am in the US - southern Minnesota

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Oh....sadly I'm in the UK! Sex

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Hi tantaanna I found an app for my samsung phone called heartbeats which records problems with arrhythmia, personally I have found it quite accurate with diagnosing my AF problems the arrhythmia nurse was quite impressed the the printed readout I showed her, I paid £4 something for a months trial when I was going through a bad spell of AF that allowed me to print and save the results, after my ablation I paid for another month same price just to check or you can £25 for a year.

Sorry for the long winded explanation but this app has been good for me to put my mind at rest.

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I have never experienced flutter, so I wouldn't know what it looks like or feels like. However, the Kardia is designed to 'detect' Atrial Fibrillation, and does so, but not to detect flutter. I am confident that if you know how to read the trace it will SHOW flutter, but probably returned "unclassified" as the result. Indeed, if used carefully the Kardia will show all sorts of heart arrhythmias, if you can read the trace. I'm with Buffafly on this, not worth it just for that.

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Flutter is quite easy to spot.....the pattern is like a sawtooth .

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Are you in permanent flutter? Is it high hr? I developed fast re-entrant flutter 9 days after my ablation( right atria) It was not regular, i was on flecainide and the higher dose i was put on slowed the rate but made it more random - like a bag of ferrets in my chest. I did not need a kardia to detect something was wrong - I was very asymptomatic and beathless. I had a second ablation 1 month after the first to correct the flutter. I was advised by my ep' s registrar that it is a much simpler procedure as compared to A fib. A lot less risky and 95% succesful. Seems to have been a success ("so far " as homer Simpson would comment).

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That's just how I felt a week after being given flecanaide and taken off bisoprolol at same time...knew something was up,but not sure what...bag of ferrets exactly!!!

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Think the answer is "it depends". The Kardia is a great device, but simply not as precise or detailed as an EKG.

I had ablations for Flutter and Fib about 3 months ago. Only a couple, relatively short, arrhythmia issues since, one of which was a couple weeks ago. My resting HR had been running at 65 or less after ablations, but moved up to around 100. Sent my Kardia results to both my GP and my EP. Both thought it looked normal on the surface, but the EP said it wasn't quite detailed enough to make a complete analysis and had me in for an EKG since HR had moved up so much.

The more detailed EKG showed a form of Flutter, that was just not noticeable on Kardia, and hard to see even on the EKG. Apparently only about 10% of patients ever present this type of flutter, so not seen commonly....but my EP and two other EP techs were looking at it, and explaining to me how it could be seen recurring on the EKG. It was a "small recurring blip" on EKG...so just couldn't see it on Kardia readout...all the large waves were clearly visible on Kardia, and were normal.

Despite the fact I needed an EKG in this instance, the EP's still had very favorable comments about Kardia. They are happy to look at a Kardia reading before having one in for an EKG, since apparently it tells them all they need to know in many instances. My situation was fairly unique. From the explanations they provided, it sounded like Kardia would normally show any major issue that affects the "larger" waves on the EKG...it is only the less pronounced ones that may not be adequately displayed....but also those are apparently the less troublesome ones, typically.

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barbaras, I have heard similar but the problem is that if your flutter episodes are very short like mine (under an hour) the chances of getting to a a 12 lead ekg machine are slim. At least Kardia documents things at the time. If I was in more permanent flutter, a 12 lead certainly would be a good idea. Another way to document would be with Zio Patch which would not only capture the event, but what happened right before the event. Not sure if the Zio's tracings are any better than Kardia's but again it does have the advantage of capturing you going both in and out of the event which can have diagnostic value.

Jim

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I actually wore the Zio Patch for a couple weeks, for the same reason....incidents didn't happen frequently or last long. EP knew I had flutter, but suspected might have Afib as well...and wanted to know before doing an ablation so could address both at same time.

The Zio Patch did, in fact, pick up Afib in addition to flutter, several occurrences but only one that I "felt" since the HR increase was much less than for flutter.

My understanding is that the Zio Patch is extremely accurate. It is connected via Bluetooth to a cell phone like device that you carry with you. It uploads data to servers periodically, which is accessible by EP daily....and if something dramatic is picked up, a text message is immediately sent to the EP. Cool technology...but wish didn't need it:-)!

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Hi Barabas, That is the newer AT version that transmits data to your EP. More commonly used is the XT version which records everything but the data is not analyzed until you mail the unit back. Curious, what was the length of the afib episodes that the zio patch picked up? Also, did you get notified your EP while you're wearing it? I may try the patch in the near future but I think I'll go with the older XT version, otherwise I will get nervous every time my phone rings!

Jim

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The EP doesn't contact you unless whatever is transmitted is beyond monitoring limits that he, or Zio, establish...so he never called me after the events since they were "normal" Fib or Flutter events and HR didn't go off the charts.

However, after 7 days of wearing it I contacted him for some other reason, and he had been receiving daily reports, and told me he already knew that I had an AFib event. He told me I could quit wearing it then, if I wanted to, since he had already confirmed what he suspected, but I went ahead and wore for full 14 days just in case it recorded something of further significance (which it did not).

Carrying around the "cell phone" type unit is a little bit of hassle...essentially carrying two cell phones for two weeks.

I didn't know there was an XT version, but that sounds fine and would have been fine for me. Much better than a Holter monitor which I wore for 3 days some years ago.

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The two units are identical but the XT doesn't come with a transmitter. If you go to their web site you won't even see the AT unit because it's so new. Besides flagging anything dramatic, I suppose another advantage of the AT is so that the doc knows if he found what he's looking for so he can either terminate early or tell you to wear it longer. Personally, it would stress me out knowing I'm being real time monitored, but that's me. Glad it worked out for you.

Jim

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Best of luck, Jim! Sounds like you have very short episodes, similar to what I experienced.

Now realize that I had an incident or two a year at least going back 5 years, but didn't last long enough to diagnose...and really didn't matter since didn't cause any issue other than "feeling weird" for a few hours.

I may have jumped the gun with ablations, but it seemed the episodes were becoming more frequent, and after wearing the AT monitor for a couple weeks which recorded several events, decided to proceed with ablations.

Fortunately, the med tech seems to be moving quickly in this and other areas, and hopefully there will be a permanent, reliable solution in next few years, even if ablations don't work permanently. That is what my EP is saying, who appears to be on the "leading edge" of new procedures, studies, etc. Hope he is correct:-)!!

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It's becoming clear I've probaby been having at least some of these very short episodes for years as well but that was before I had the Kardia. I'd be interested to hear more about the "permanent" solution in the next few years. Is this a new kind of ablation? Also can post who your EP is, or if not appropriate, could you send me a private message with his name and location. I'm not ready for ablation now but the time may come.

Jim

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To see Flutter waves reliably, it is best to record Lead II. That can be accomplished by sitting upright, placing one of the metal electrodes on you left knee and holding the other with your right hand. You can use your left hand to push down the side on the knee.

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You will probably get an "unclassified" reading if you have flutter. You can then email the ekg to either Kardia's analysis service (for a fee) or to your doctor. So, "yes" it will detect aflutter but the automatic software will not make that call which is probably for the better as my understanding is that even doctors can disagree whether certain ekg's represent flutter, afib, or another type of SVT, even with a 12 lead. At least you will get it documented.

Jim

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I have a Kardia and it does not detect atrial flutter in the sense that it does it flag it up explicitly. However, if read by a medical professional, the ECG trace might indicate atrial flutter. Strictly, all the Kardia does is to indicate *possible* atrial fibrillation.

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Although the Kardia algorithm is specifically set to recognise the Atrial Fibrillation 'pattern' rather than anything else, it is I think still possible to get a good idea of other kinds of arrhythmias from the recordings we take.

In case anyone hasn't found it , if you open the Kardia App on the homepage and go to 'settings' (little green bars top left corner) then select 'Heart Education' then 'Arrhythmia Library' it gives named examples of the different arrhythmias which can then be compared with your own recording. Atrial Flutter is included in the library.

I find It fascinating how different all the arrhythmias appear on the recordings, the layman with practice can get an idea of what they are looking at. There are lots more examples of different arrhythmias recordings on the internet including AF with the missing 'P' waves.

I don't think Kardia is allowed to say that a recording is definitely AF I guess for legal reasons.

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Thank you - haven’t purchased yet as still on med after ablation- five more days. Then hoping for no episodes at least for awhile.

Hard not to feeling 😟 anxious

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