Morning all,
I have recently been diagnosed with PAF and started on warfarin and a low dose beta blocker . Can anyone with a similar diagnosis tell me if I have to advise the DVLA of this problem, as the Cardiology consultant I spoke to didn't mention this.
Thanks,
Huffnpuffer
This is an emotive topic and a well covered one in older posts. If you look at my profile under posts responded to you will pick up quite a few of the posts.
Personally I did notify them and filled out the form (see my responses for completion information) and also notified my insurance company. That way if there is a problem or issue in the future you are covered because they have said yes. Someone else I know notified DVLA around the same time as I did and got a response within a couple of weeks. In my case they took about 4 or 5 months because they had made checks (presumably with Consultant and GP).
More importantly with my insurance company (and particularly when I changed companies at renewal) they were happy that I had the DVLA OK notification.
By notifying you remove the problem that a police officer or insurance company says that you should have notified them and then problems ensue with your licence / insurance.
Thank you PeterWh, I am a new member here, and will check out the older posts regarding my query.
Dear Huff,
A while ago I would have agreed entirely with Peter's post but recent changes to the law have changed my view. Funnily enough I was looking on DVLA website this morning on another matter and checked my facts as things do change from time to time. Unless your arrhythmia causes incapacity or distracts you whilst driving then you no longer have to advise DVLA or fill in Form H1. Unless a medical condition needs to be advised to DVLA then you would not normally need to advise your insurance company . Proposal forms usually include the question "do you suffer from any medical condition which has to be advised to DVLA?" So, unless you are incapacitated the answer is no and unless completing a new application they would not need to be advised.
Should your status change then obviously you would need to.
Two years ago you would have had to complete H1 which was a waste of time since question one was " has your doctor told you not to drive" after which the form was irrelevant but this has now all been changed . Happy days
Bob
Bob. I had revisited the website in light of the update. However my view hasn't changed and I personally would still notify them.
Just because of the nice revised words DVLA have now put up (possibly to save them administration time and costs)!!! By notifying DVLA a person clearly established a baseline. A lot of it is to do with the fact that we have as a nation become much more litigious and because of computer systems are extremely prevalent and people less freedom and knowledge. Also insurance companies will find ways of getting out of paying if they can, especially where significant sums are involved. At the end of the day the only thing that is fact is anything that is in writing. I bet the medical records of the vast majority of us do not have a statement written down from the GP or consultant "Fit to drive"!!! Also the reality is that I think that it is over 25% of all GPs and Consultants will retire in the next five years - so they may not be around to help. I admit that I am probably one of the luckier ones where DVLA did a cross check so it is actually on my GP's or Hospital's records.
If you are unfortunate enough to have an accident (even if it is not your fault) then the police will check with DVLA and if the particular constable is unsure they will certainly go along the lines of it should have been (they may not know about the revised plans). Also there will declarations to insurance company and possible research into your medical history and records (and they will go back to childhood), examinations, etc will be undertaken by the insurance company (both sides) and possibly their lawyers. If you have a DVLA letter then the key will be what has changed since then.
However if you don't have one then the cost of obtaining consultant and GP letters and reports is down to your pocket unless you have taken out specialist insurance (note legal cover on motor insurance policies won't pay except possibly where an accusation has been made by the other parties involved). That could typically cost you £1,500 to £3,000. Also a smart and devious lawyer may also say well in 2014 the law was X and you didn't notify which you were legally required to. Yes in English law you are innocent until proven guilty however the cost of proving yourself innocent is normally down to you unless you can claim from another insurance company!!!
Slightly off the track but a few years ago a friend was in a motoring accident and there was quite a lot of car damage to both cars but NOT anything significant re personal injury claims. Both drivers claimed that the other was 100% responsible (not unusual). It turned out that both cars were insured by the same insurance company. Anyway the insurance company decided that the best means of resolution was to go to court and instructed two sets of solicitors and two barristers. In fact my friend was adjudged not to have any blame so they got their no claims reinstated and a big cheque back (because in the interim their premium had gone up AND they had paid more because of reduced no claims discount. However the number of days that my friend had spent attending court, medicals, lawyers, etc, were quite a few.
Thanks BobD.
I agree with PeterWh. I notified DVLA and my insurance company in writing and both said that unless my doctor had advised against driving, they were content. In the case of my insurance company, I asked for my letter to be included in my insurance file.
In the event of a traffic accident - even if you are totally blameless, a 'good' lawyer will attempt to cast doubt if you have an undeclared heart condition. Better to be safe than sorry.
Ever the cynic there is the view that if you advise them of something that you do not need to then you must be covering something up! Good luck on getting a letter from DVLA saying that you have advised them of something that you do not need to. It is a personal choice in my view.
And I was always the one telling people to do it. There was until recently great confusion since the advice to medical practitioners was ALWAYS that it need not be notified and in fact Dr Matt Fay told HRC in October 2104 that we did not need to advise DVLA of AF. It was my intervention at that meeting which raised his request that the anomaly be corrected (advise to drivers was that it should be advised) that seems to have changed the DVLA website and my personal view.
I also very much doubt that police would go looking for medical conditions unless the accident suggested that one or other driver was incapacitated. See original terms and conditions.
Bob
The problem that I see is that AF can cause dizziness in some people and the previous and present systems of DVLA notification put the onus on the driver to notify them or not. I'm a total cynic perhaps but I believe by notifying and stating on my form that my GP has not directed me to cease driving that I have fulfilled my responsibility.
The police may have to investigate if a party to an accident has the type of lawyer who digs for 'dirt' and makes an accusation as to the fitness of the other driver because of a condition which could have caused the accident and which has not been notified. That happened here recently and was an attempt to raise doubt and deflect blame - it failed fortunately.
That is not uncommon. Also if it is unclear as to who is to blame or if it is a you only accident the police will always investigate deeper. It certainly used to be that they asked each driver and each passenger / witness if they are taking prescription or over the counter medicines or taking recreational drugs (believe it or not the driver involved in an accident I witnessed answered yes!!!).
I knew of someone who ran into the back of a car that an old man was driving because she wasn't paying attention (so it was her fault and she admitted that) but her legal team argued that because the male driver had poor eyesight and was on medication he should have not been on the road and therefore she couldn't be held liable and that was agreed. She kept her no claims bonus and the excess was awarded to her. This was about 15 years ago now so not sure if this ruse would still apply today (I suspect not). I personally wouldn't have gone down that route from choice but it was out of her hands as her insurance company's solicitor / barrister handled the case.
BOB. Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that there are about a million people in this country suffering from AF to a greater or lesser degree. If all of us wrote to the DVLA they would be unundated just by AF patients alone!! I have had AF for over 22 years and was told by DVLA that if I was receiving treatment and regular monitoring and was largely symptom free then I was free to drive. I have always told my insurance company who have never had a problem with my AF. Common sense dictates that if you have an episode you would not drive until symptoms have subsided and you feel back to being fit enough to carry on your normal life. Anne
As I said, whilst it was once a requirement to advise DVLA this requirement has now been removed unless you are incapacitated by your symptoms. I agree with your sentiments but feel that if others feel so strongly then it is their affair but I shall continue to work within the current laws and guide lines.
As an aside, it is terrifying how some people are still allowed to drive when they are clearly unfit to do so. There is for example no requirement for opticians to advise DVLA of customers with poor eyesight. Nor is there any test or minimum standard for reaction time. One elderly chap near here was found to have a reaction time of THREE SECONDS following an accident. I think the police have quite enough to worry about frankly.
I agree that we are far too lax in this country re older drivers. It did not used to be the case since in the late 60s and 70s (at least) a driver had to go to their GP and optician to get medical form signed to renew their licence after (I think) age 70. I know that because of both my grandfathers. However that was not fool proof because at least some "tame" GPs signed the form so as not to upset the patient. That happened with one of my grandfathers who got his renewed quite a few times and he could not see properly because of cataracts / operations and class 1 diabetes. However he never did actually drive (thank goodness).
I would certainly favour medical tests at aged 70 and then every three years except eyesight certificate annually until 80 then annually because of the safety risks, particularly eyesight (I am in my 60s now). Often people don't realise that it is some time since they had their eyes tested or that their eyes change - one of my friends mother hadn't had an eye test for over 10 years and was so surprised how much better she could see when she got her new glasses!!! She was still driving (though they did confiscate her keys between finding out and her getting the new glasses.
I know some of this will be controversial!!!
Now you're scaring me Bob! True though. I watched, only this morning, an old chap reversing into a two car space. Back and forth several times, taking aim and finally ended up with his bonnet three feet in front of everyone else. On leaving, I notived his front bumper was almost obliterated with scars and scratches.
Makes you wonder sometimes.........!
Totally agree with Bob. The basis of the DVLA queries is one asking if you have any condition which affects your driving ability. If i am currently in NSR then there is no requirement to say yes. I had to advise the DVLA that I suffered from glaucoma - but only because it was a straight question and it had been officially diagnosed. I passed their test. A friend of mine has glaucoma and eyesight twice as bad as mine yet has never sought treatment and therefore not diagnosed. He continues to drive. I don't think he should - but in all things we must regulate ourselves and if I were back into AF, I would seriously assess whether I should drive or not.
Thankyou for your reply, Finvola.
I notified them a couple of years back, even though my EP said that I was (a) perfectly OK to drive and (b) that I did not need to advise DVLA. I also asked my insurers about it and they replied that as long as my doctor/cardio said I was OK to drive then I would be insured and that was all they needed.
With the new wording on the website, with my situation then personally, I would not now advise them. But that's me not you.
Koll
PS. My call to the DVLA was not particularly pleasant and the guy I dealt with was a complete p*ll*ck, sorry for the swearing. I also got something wrong with the form, and they then wrote to me to say that I had to refill the form in and that if I didn't my licence to drive would automatically cease in 30 days time. The 30 days had already started by the time I got the letter. That would have been my livelihood gone. And a good job I wasn't on holiday.
That's why I always do things like that by email or letter.
Doctors asked if I drive and I said yes - they made no further comment .
Two additional comments to stir into the pot. When you get to 70 (it comes remarkably quickly) there is a different procedure, and you have to apply to renew your licence. Although you can now do this online, you can only drive while waiting for the renewal "if you have the support of your doctor to continue driving" (wording taken from website).
As to insurance, a contract of insurance is a contract "uberrimae fidei" which puts the onus on the insured to declare anything that the insurer might consider relevant in quantifying the risk. A bit like confession for Catholics, it doesn't work unless you are completely frank.
I thought long and hard when renewing my license coming up to 70. Did it well in advance which was a mistake actually. Because my boys are in motor sport I decided that I couldn't be asked to drive their truck around so never bothered with the medical and extra £100 etc it would have cost to renew my top end licenses. Consequently I lost all bar the normal car, van and caravan licenses FROM THE DATE OF MY APPLICATION not from my 70s birthday. Small detail but worth remembering as I am now no better off than they are and restricted to 3.5tonne GVW. Now they are having to do HGV training. ha ha.
Yes that MIGHT is the key word. How do you know in the future? You can have in persistent AF for years and then bang something happens. Also you may swerve to say miss an animal and hit someone and if that person didn't see it you can be sure that a momentary lapse due to Af will be the outcome. I am 100% certain that a medical consultant preparing an expert witness report (who may NOT be an EP) will never say that AF cannot cause short term distractions / disturbances or blackouts.
I recently asked my EP the same question and was told no need to inform DVLA. I take Bisoprolol and instead of warfarin take a newer anticoagulant Eloquis. I have the same condition as you. Hope this has helped answer your question.
Thank you Florence-Nightingale, you have put my mind at rest, I appreciate your reply.
DVLA / Bus Driver / Frustration
Dvla notification
DVLA
Declaring AF to DVLA
