R-Lipoic Acid - Are there any counter... - Advanced Prostate...

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R-Lipoic Acid - Are there any counter indications or reasons not to take it?

cesanon profile image
33 Replies

R-Lipoic Acid - Are there any counter indications or reasons not to take it?R-Lipoic Acid apparently helps with neuropathy. I seem to remember someone here saying that there are countervailing side effects or reasons why you might not want to take it. Any thoughts?

33 Replies
smurtaw profile image
smurtaw

The only possible drawback is that it is an antioxidant. Maybe aoxs are good for prevention and possibly they are bad for progression of existing cancers. But the evidence isn't very strong. I would do what you need to do.

Others probably know more than i do though.

cesces profile image
cesces in reply to smurtaw

"Maybe aoxs are good for prevention and possibly they are bad for progression of existing cancers."

I have always wondered if that was the case.

You are the first person I have seen to express that speculation.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to cesces

ROS (opposite of aox) is therapeutic. We know this to be true. And it is SOC to reduce or eliminate aox sups when you do RT or chemo.

The evidence isn't strong but if we look at biology and DNA damage, aox should be good before we have cancer but bad after. The opposite is true for high ROS. Bad and then "often" good.

Cooolone profile image
Cooolone in reply to smurtaw

Yes indeed, there's information supporting both sides of the argument. Interesting rabbit hole to deep dive into is the "Oxidative Stress" environment and it's effect upon cellular function.

This go round with radiation I just completed, I laid off the AOX and tried to oxidize as much as possible. Daily walks and also sucking down some oxygen (canned), prior to and post, each therapy session, lol. No proof of anything, just my own thoughts, to pump up the Ox a bit ;) even of just a small bit. Lol

Good stuff ;)

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Cooolone

I think that a targeted ROS generating therapy (such as RT) is the time to oxidize. There is some evidence supporting this.

Trust your thoughts Cool. They worked well.

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to smurtaw

Russ, would you mind commenting on my message of the possible prudence of quitting all aox? If there is a small risk of cancer progression for each, one or two or two of them just might actually cause this.......?

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Purple-Bike

No hard data but I'll take a guess.

Perhaps cycling them. So take a lot of aoxs for a while in hopes of preventing other cancers from rooting. And aoxs might be good for general cellular health.

If cancer is showing high activity, try to swamp it with ROS. For example, high dose melatonin. 20 mg or more (I take 60 mg at night).

The ones you mention:

Curcumin, EGCG, and lycopene have a little evidence that goes beyond aox.

Melatonin: low dose (10 mg) is pro.

Nattokinase and low-dose aspirin might reduce cardiac risk. I take them during high T (I also take a statin - or red yeast rice, and metformin during high T).

Zinc is used by T via ZIP9. I am going to try 15 mg/day during high T.

Membrane ARs (mAR) reside on the outside of the cells. Intracellular ARs (iAR) are located in the cytoplasm of the cells. Initially, most of the PCa cells have a high mAR to iAR ratio. Activation of mAR is beneficial, and it upregulates calcium which helps contain the PCa cells. ZIP9 is one type of mAR and it doubles as an androgen receptor and zinc receptor. Activation of mAR by testosterone induces apoptosis. DHT is an agonist of ZIP9 mAR but does not promote zinc concentrations as well as testosterone and therefore doesn’t foster high levels of zinc mediated apoptosis. Bicalutamide and enzalutamide are ZIP9 antagonists.

ZIP9 functions both as a mAR that signals through G proteins and as an androgen-dependent zinc transporter and is an intermediary in androgen induction of apoptosis and death of PC-3 prostate cancer cells.

a) Scopus preview - Scopus - Document details - ZIP9, a novel membrane androgen receptor and zinc transporter protein

scopus.com/record/display.u...

b) Vitamin D and testosterone co-ordinately modulate intracellular zinc levels and energy metabolism in prostate cancer cells - ScienceDirect

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

c) Identification and Characterization of Membrane Androgen Receptors in the ZIP9 Zinc Transporter Subfamily: II. Role of Human ZIP9 in Testosterone-Induced Prostate and Breast Cancer Cell Apoptosis - PMC

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

d) ZIP9, a novel membrane androgen receptor and zinc transporter protein – ScienceDirect

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

e) 1-24 mg Zinc reduced progression, higher amounts did not: Post-diagnostic Zinc Supplement Use and Prostate Cancer Survival Among Men With Nonmetastatic Prostate Cancer | Journal of Urology

auajournals.org/doi/10.1097...

27. Vitamin D and testosterone co-ordinately modulate intracellular zinc levels and energy metabolism in prostate cancer cells - PubMed

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/306...

49. Membrane androgen receptor characteristics of human ZIP9 (SLC39A) zinc transporter in prostate cancer cells: Androgen-specific activation and involvement of an inhibitory G protein in zinc and MAP kinase signaling - ScienceDirect

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

6. A Proposed Efficacious Treatment with Clioquinol (Zinc Ionophore) and Cabergoline (Prolactin Dopamine Agonist) for the Treatment of Terminal Androgen-independent Prostate Cancer. Why and how? - PMC

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...

For the most part, I cycle them. I take more ROS-generating sups during high T. And then cycle ROS and aox during low T or ADT.

It's all just a guess though.

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to smurtaw

Antioxidants have anti-inflammatory and some other benefits, and may prevent new cancer. But carry a (small?) risk of worsening progression of existing cancer. Doesn´t seem like that great a trade-off... does temper enthusiasm for those substances!

Melatonin is the one substance that seems safe perpetually. As you say, proox at 10 mg. I will go down to that from the 20 mg I have been taking.

Phew, this is a big thing! I recall similar warnings about aox from TA earlier but only now does it sink in. That it actually may be a factor. A game-changer for many supps, if one follows thru on this. Cycling for less than half of the year, perhaps......

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Purple-Bike

FWIW, I mostly take ROS for about 75% of the time.

cesces profile image
cesces in reply to smurtaw

What exactly do you take?

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to cesces

I'm not trying to be evasive, but it depends on the therapy. Are you high T, BAT, normal T, or are you doing ADT?

cesces profile image
cesces in reply to smurtaw

I am not currently under ADT or bat.

Just trying to get some insight about what Ros you take and what your strategy is.

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to smurtaw

Meaning aox 25 % of the time?

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Purple-Bike

Yes. I might reduce that or remove it. Or counter it with ROS stuff (like high dose melatonin).

But what I have been doing lately is ROS during high T. ROS during half of ADT. Aox on the other half of ADT. High T is usually shorter than ADT. ADT is PSA driven so it varies. I've never looked at an average time.

cesces profile image
cesces in reply to smurtaw

What are Ros agents that can be commonly used?

How much melatonin is low dose? How much is high dose?

What is there other than melatonin?

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to cesces

Melatonin has a dual action. In low doses, it is an antioxidant. In high doses, it becomes a pro-oxidant. Pro-oxidants create oxidation and theoretically destroy cancer cells. Antioxidants help the body heal and repair.

I used 3 NIH studies and arrived at a threshold of approximately 11mg. Below that melatonin is an antioxidant. Above that, it is a pro-oxidant. To be safe I think that the antioxidant dose should be less than 3mg and the pro-oxidant dose should be greater than 20mg.

There are some others but high-dose melatonin has the largest body of data. It has my MOs interest.

cesces profile image
cesces in reply to smurtaw

Are there any other pro oxidants that might be of interest to the other folks here?

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to cesces

High dose IV-C. 100 g + dose, high osmolarity, infused in less than an hour. Potentially therapeutic levels are going to be transient. Maybe it could be combined with high dose melatonin.

Lots of Batmen on this site. One of the possible mechanisms of BAT is ROS generation of high T. So, maybe synergistic. A lot of speculation though.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Purple-Bike

4. Antioxidants Accelerate the Growth and Invasiveness of Tumors in Mice - NCI

cancer.gov/news-events/canc...

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to Purple-Bike

Melatonin has a dual action. In low doses, it is an antioxidant. In high doses, it becomes a pro-oxidant. Pro-oxidants create oxidation and theoretically destroy cancer cells. Antioxidants help the body heal and repair.

I used 3 NIH studies and arrived at a threshold of approximately 11mg. Below that melatonin is an antioxidant. Above that, it is a pro-oxidant. To be safe I think that the antioxidant dose should be less than 3mg and the pro-oxidant dose should be greater than 20mg.

tango65 profile image
tango65

Smurtaw is right. This is some information supporting what he has clearly expressed:

cancer.gov/news-events/canc...

cesces profile image
cesces in reply to tango65

HmmmSo that means you should not be supplementing with vitamin C?

That's my go to vitamin.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to cesces

Are you supplementing with oral vitamin C? It might not hurt but it probably doesn't help. Most decent studies don't show much either way. Oral is only going to produce aox. Not high enough for ROS (including liposomal varieties despite the marketing).

Some speculate that high-dose IV-C might produce ROS and be therapeutic. I'm not certain about this. In part because the highest serum concentrations are transient.

cesanon profile image
cesanon in reply to smurtaw

I do 2 grams of Vitamin C per day just for general health principles. LOL

Cooolone profile image
Cooolone in reply to cesanon

Liposomal?

FRTHBST profile image
FRTHBST in reply to smurtaw

I have read one theory behind possible efficacy of high dose IV vitamin C is that it becomes a powerful oxidant when delivered directly to the bloodstream at these more concentrated levels. Most non cancerous cells have enzymes to deal with this, some cancers do not and the resulting caspase cascade induces apoptosis. It doesn't work with every cancer, but can in some cases be beneficial. One good aspect is vitamin C's low toxicity, so to try one is only out some $'s.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to FRTHBST

The theory is that it becomes a powerful oxidant like you said (ROS generation).

It does have low toxicity. But it takes over an hour in a chair to get a good infusion and hundreds of dollars. And the wear and tear on your veins can be difficult to deal with. I know of one guy who ended up getting a chemo port so that he could get IV-C 3x a week.

You can measure serum levels with a glucometer.

FRTHBST profile image
FRTHBST in reply to smurtaw

That's interesting about wear and tear and measurement with glucometer. Was it effective for the guy you knew? I did try it for about 8 months 2x a week. I understand some people have had it even more frequently than 3x. And it did set me back about $400 a week(ouch-that hurt more than the needle). It was not long after my diagnosis and I was exploring every avenue that didn't present a clear physical downside. In my case I don't think it had any great effect.

smurtaw profile image
smurtaw in reply to FRTHBST

I don't know if it did anything. His PSA was <0.01 and stayed there. I think he did it for about 6 months.

cesces profile image
cesces

I'm interested in it for neuropathy.

KocoPr profile image
KocoPr

ROS concentrations for cancer patients is a conundrum.

On one hand you want your mitochondria working efficiently by lowering ROS., but if we let enough free radicals clog our mitochondria our good and bad cancer cells die. During chemo, and radiation we are building up ROS to help cell death along especially on the faster growing cancer cells, but hair, gut/mouth, and skin cells also die. I can see not taking antioxidants during this time. My consternation is I always here prostate cancer is a slow growing cancer so in order to supposedly kill our PCa cells we are slowly aging all of our cells faster than a high or normal antioxidant healthy diet would do.

I did stop taking all of my mitochondria support vitamins, and am reluctant to take R lipoic acid. I even stopped my B12 self injections. I do take a multivitamin but once or twice a week depending on how im feeling.

For your peripheral neuropathy

I had peripheral neuropathy before cancer diagnosis and i was fairly healthy with normal glucose levels so it wasn’t diet related. I asked for a B 12 panel and it came back normal it include homocysteine but they did not include methylmalonic acid (MMA). I got the MMA test and it showed that i was not metabolizing my methylcobalamin.

Here is a good nih article from 2016 on B12, peripheral neuropathy, Himocystein, and Methylmalonic acid.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike

What Russ writes, and the article posted by tango65 indicates even though it is a mouse study, is disconcerting. Many of us are taking often strong antioxidants for antiinflammatory and low-level evidence of anti-cancer effects. Curcumin, EGCG, melatonin, lycopene, nattokinase, zinc... you name it. If there is low-level evidence that these could aid progression of existing cancer, wouldnt prudence dictate that one not take these?

cesanon profile image
cesanon in reply to Purple-Bike

While not exactly a good trials for our purposes.

It is certainly logical, isn't it.

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