UK NCRN Pomi-T study

[jimbay]

Hello Brain Trust, what is the conventional wisdom on Pomi-T and this study? ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

I'm not much of a supplement guy, but this study appears convincing. Has it been duplacted?

[Tall_Allen]

The only ingredient that hasn't been shown to be ineffective is sulforaphane.

[jimbay in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thanks, TA. I read all your great posts after I posted. Next time I'll search first and post later (if necessary).

[Currumpaw in reply to jimbay]

T_A is correct in that alone, sulforaphane is the most effective.

Each of the ingredients in Pomi-T alone did little alone, however, when combined the power of synergy was shown.

Watch the video. Note that this study was funded by a nonprofit. I worked in pharmaceutical manufacturing for a multi-billion-dollar company for years, unique in that the company had seven licenses to operate the business. No company that manufactures drugs would fund a study of herbs, vegetables, fruit and leaves.

youtu.be/E-uE3MVS8H0(Not working as expected?)

Currumpaw

[Teufelshunde]

Not sure I agree with Tall_Allen's conclusion. It appears he feels the difference in results in the PomT study is due just to sulforaphane. I think Dr Greger's video is instructive. However, in the below Phase II with just pom juice, PSA doubling time went from 15 months at baseline to 54 months for guys like me with BCR. This doesnt happen by chance. And no side effects. I know there was not a control group (what idiot would volunteer to have a 50% chance of getting no treatment when they are getting worse and could possibly die? Not me) so the supposed placebo effect did all this? I'll take my chances and down 8oz of organic pom juice each day. I also do daily BROQ per RCT dose so have the sulforaphane covered also.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/168...

[Tall_Allen in reply to Teufelshunde]

I am just stating facts,. Not something one can disagree with.

[Teufelshunde in reply to Tall_Allen]

Pom juice showed effect in Phase II study I attached. Not something one can disagree with.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Teufelshunde]

When it was tested against a placebo, Pom juice failed to show any improvement.

"Compared with placebo, pomegranate extract did not significantly prolong PSADT in prostate cancer patients with rising PSA after primary therapy. "

nature.com/articles/pcan201532

[CAMPSOUPS in reply to Tall_Allen]

Randomized, double blind. Can't beat that.

I think I will pass it on to my wife although fortunately she got off the pom juice hype several years ago lol.

[Teufelshunde in reply to Tall_Allen]

Your quote is for pom extract not pom juice. There is a difference. Two other items. First, how would you explain mean PSADT going from 15 mo to 54 mo ? This does not happen on its own. Ever. Second, we have seen synergies in other combinations of items, including drugs.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Teufelshunde]

(1) "Your quote is for pom extract not pom juice. There is a difference."

In fact, they tested pom juice:

"Consumption of pomegranate juice as an adjunct intervention in men with advanced prostate cancer does not result in significant PSA declines compared to placebo."

(2) "First, how would you explain mean PSADT going from 15 mo to 54 mo ? This does not happen on its own."

In fact, it does happen on its own. That's why placebos are used.

"These data suggest that calculated PSADT in BRPC may naturally increase over time in the absence of therapy and may be influenced by duration of PSA follow-up. As a result, single arm trials could show false significant increases despite the lack of active treatment of these patients. Placebo-controlled RCTs including clinical endpoints are recommended to screen novel agents in men with BRPC to mitigate bias because of natural PSADT variability."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

(3) "Second, we have seen synergies in other combinations of items, including drugs."

But never when the individual components had no effect. We screen out useless drugs that way.

[Teufelshunde in reply to Tall_Allen]

Here is the title of what you posted for me to look at: A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study of the effects of pomegranate extract on rising PSA levels in men following primary therapy for prostate cancer. IT SAYS POMEGRANATE EXTRACT! Yes, I realize there was juice also which i feel did well.

Ok, how many of us on this site have had PSADT increase like that from doing nothing? Please speak up now since I dont believe that at all. That is an increase in PSADT of over 4 years. Something changed.

And I know the placebo group in this study was doing something. They knew this was bad having short PSADT and changed something. Maybe they started on sulforaphane?

And while PSADT increased in extract group less than placebo group (4.5 mo and 1.6 mo), the juice group increase was 7.6 month . So PSADT goes from one year to close to two years. Yes, I will take that increase by just drinking an 8oz glass of organic pressed pomegranate juice any day of the week. The docs may call it "insignificant" but I think all the ones on here with BCR would be happy to get that increase. So in my book it does work.

We can argue about the degree it works, but you are being dishonest by saying it does not work when the data shows it does increase PSADT.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Teufelshunde]

I just posted the German trial using Pomegranate juice. I guess you didn't look at it.

Your putting anecdotes ahead of large numbers of patients is just your searching for confirmation bias. Your "book" has nothing to do with actual evidence. Trials have to compare to a placebo. The only one being "dishonest" here is you - you are lying to yourself.

[Teufelshunde in reply to Tall_Allen]

Nope didnt look. Didnt need to. Had enough evidence to make up my mind. I figured out what our disagreement is all based on. I am not dishonest and neither are you. I am not lying to myself and neither are you. It is not confirmation bias. Have to run but will post later so we can discuss my theory if you are so inclined. I do appreciate you and your input.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Teufelshunde]

When you intentionally ignore the highest level evidence available, it is confirmation bias. Not interested in any further discussion unless you are prepared to follow science. On the upside, I don't think drinking some juice will hurt you.

[Rolphs]

I use BROQ and PomT but also fresh fruits and vegetables when possible including POM juice. As long as it doesn’t feed the PC beast my philosophy is to take these things . Having randomized studies to back up efficacy is of course preferred but sometimes anecdotal evidence is all that’s available. 👍

[Teufelshunde in reply to Rolphs]

BROQ has RTC.

[de-luke]

I've been taking Pomi-T for about 3 years, my MO recommended it. I get the Pomi-T on Amazon 3 bottles for $71. I take two caps in the morning.

I'm not sure if it has an effect on my PSA, it still it doubling. But perhaps it is slowing it down. I may change the dosage to one cap three times a day.

[Teufelshunde in reply to de-luke]

Why not use BROQ at study doseage when it has been proven to basically stop progression? Available on Amazon or broq.life.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/259...

[Rolphs in reply to Teufelshunde]

Thanks for the link to the study! I What is RTC? Semper Fi.

[Teufelshunde in reply to Rolphs]

Randomized controlled trial. This is what everyone considers the gold standard. I think it is better (depending on outside influences, etc which most tend to ignore) so a study like the pom juice one is hard to argue against rationally.

[Tall_Allen]

Each has shown no effect.

[de-luke]

Because I use the Pami-T caps and the bottle doesn't break down the ingredients by amount. It might be the same as the BROQ study. I might be able to find it somewhere. Any way the caps are convenient and I don't have a weight small amounts and get each ingredient.

[Teufelshunde in reply to de-luke]

The sulforaphane in BROQ is like 10-20x the amount normally avail in the other products. You know when you take this. It is strong, which is why it probably stops BCR in its tracks.

[Tall_Allen]

No. As I said, sulforaphane had activity in a Phase 2 trial.