White cell count and neutrophils low?

[konichiwa12]

I had my 4 weekly check yesterday. The nurse text me later to say that my white blood cell count and neutrophils results were low. She said my immune system may be compromised and I should avoid large crowds and socializing. Is this correct?

[LearnAll]

It depends on how low the white cell count is. If they are in low normal range..its a good news. Why? Because it indicates that there is no infection or inflammation.If White Cells count is below 3.5 and going lower, it can be matter of concern. A better way to assess is by calculating Ratio of Neutrophils to Lymphocytes (NLR) Divide total Neutrophils by total Lymphocytes and if it come below 3.0, its good. It is indicator of degree inflammation and when cancer starts to grow, inflammation also grows.

[Tall_Allen]

How low was it? That may be related to the pelvic lymph node radiation.

[Mascouche in reply to Tall_Allen]

How long after radiation does it take to get the lymphocytes back to normal?

[Tall_Allen in reply to Mascouche]

It's very individual. Just monitor periodically.

[konichiwa12]

Thank you for your replies gents. I have asked for the information but not received it yet. I stopped getting the comprehensive list of results last July for some reason but then it was around 3 and the NLR ratio was around 3 so "normal" (but a year ago!).

[6357axbz in reply to konichiwa12]

Was NLR ratio part of your normal blood work readout?

[konichiwa12]

No but LearnAll suggested it was a better indicator so I just worked it out. I get the white blood cell count and the neutrophils level, A divided by B = C.........

[6357axbz in reply to konichiwa12]

I thought it was ratio of Neutrophils over Lymphocytes. Did you not use Lymphocytes in your calculation?

[konichiwa12]

Sorry, my mistake. Yes I used Lymphocytes.

[LearnAll]

There are actually 3 different Ratios...we need to calculate each time we get our Complete Blood Count results.

(1) NLR (Neurophil to Lymphocyte Ratio) : Absolute Neutrophils Divided by Absolute Lymphocytes. Should stay Below 3.0.

(2) PLR (Platelets to Lymphocyte Ratio)...Total Platelet Count Divided by Absolute Lymphocytes. Should remain below 120.

(3) LMR (Lymphocytes to Monocytes Ratio) . ..Absolute Lymphocytes Divided by Absolute Monocytes. Should remain Above 3.0.

These Ratios are not only indicators of how things are going at that point of time inside body...they also can be used as prognostic biomarkers.

[DJBUNK in reply to LearnAll]

LearnAll - Do you have any further information on the significance of the biomarkers you list? My last CBC resulted in values all exceeding the thresholds you state (NLR = 3.15, PLR = 155, LMR = 2.6). My doctor reviewed my CBC test but wasnt concerned with the values so I havent worried about them until I read your post.

[LearnAll in reply to DJBUNK]

Your Ratios are not bad at all. They are pretty close to ideal numbers ...although not ideal. These ratios are a snapshot of that particular moment and reflect degree of inflammation and state of immune system. High inflammation not only initiates but also propagates prostate cancer growth according to lot of studies. Our goal is to keep these ratios as close to ideal as we can by anti inflammatory dietary items and keeping immune system in good condition. To verify further, you can test C Reactive Protein level which is a sensitive marker for systemic inflammation.

To improve these ratios further, either you need to reduce inflammation by lowering neutrophils or boost innate immunity by increasing Lymphocytes.

[Justfor_ in reply to DJBUNK]

Don't get seriously concerned because numbers coming from doctors should be taken with a grin of salt.

Regarding NLR I have read a number of "studies" ranging from less than 2.5x for ok, to more than 3.5x for caution. So, 3.0 is somewhere in the middle. With PLR the situation is much worse. I have found "cutoff" values as dispersed as 100.7 (yes, you read correctly, "precise" to the first decimal point) and 210. Only by quoting 100.7 I dismiss this "study" as total crap, produced by a person totally incompetent for this. I am a retired engineer and know that in order to quote any value, the measurement procedure involved into which should be, at least, one order of magnitude more accurate. Supposing everything being absolutely errorless with the data acquisition (which of course isn't possible, but for the argument's sake) only the number of samples (the cohort population) demand tens of thousands of cases for a statisticaly valid 4 digit final result. It is a "disease" of our times for people to believe that since a computer or a digital readout may offer a long stream of digits they are at the same time correct.

The reality is the SI-SO protocol (Shit In -Shit Out).

[Canoehead in reply to LearnAll]

LearnAll, I think this is very good info, but I am biased, because all three of my ratios are better than your “ideal” numbers. Looking back at test results from when I was first diagnosed, this was not always the case. Despite what others (TA) may say, I choose to believe that my diligent use of multiple anti inflammatory supplements is working for me.

I also concur with other posters that unless something in your CBC results is way off, oncologists seem oblivious. When I had mild anemia, my MO said, “blood work looks great.” The only time he ever commented on anything unusual was when my liver enzymes spiked after I first started on Zytiga.

Thanks for posting.

[LearnAll in reply to Canoehead]

I am happy that you believe in antioxidant, anti inflammatory dietary supplementation. I do too. There is plenty of studies about their benefits. My ratios have been in ideal range. (latest NLR 1.4,PLR 54, LMR 3.4) Also, keeping CRP very low helps.

[konichiwa12]

PSA 0.507 from 0.457Neuts 1.72 normal range between 2 and 7

WCC 3.2 normal range between 4 and 10

Doctor told nurse no action required.

[Herman_PSA_OK]

I recall you saying that Papaya Extract does a heck of a job raising your platelets fast. Tried it and sure enough it did. What also works to tweak your white blood counts is two capsules of Shark Liver Oil. You can pick that up at LifeExtension online. It was mentioned in the book, How to Starve Your Cancer. It worked for me as well to get my levels back into the low normal range.

Herm

[Purple-Bike in reply to Herman_PSA_OK]

Herman, what would be the dose of Papaya Extract to aim at in order to increase white blood count? I find little about that.

[Herman_PSA_OK in reply to Purple-Bike]

The Papaya Leaf Extract is used to raise the blood platelets and depending on the brand you choose will determing the dose. I've taken one or two tablespoons per day with good results. You will not usually feel anything. So, without a blood lab, you won't know. Life-Extension has labs you can order online and use LabCorp to draw your blood.

The Shark Liver Oil is for increasing your white blood cell count. I have taken two capsules per day for a few weeks. When you take it in about half-hour later you will feel a warm body flash like a very mild Lupron shot side-effect for a minute or so. Hey, you'll feel your immune system kick in. The warm feeling is the strongest the first few times you take it and afterwards you get use to it. Compared to Lupron, it's a walk in the park.

Note! You really don't need to take these two medical hacks for a very long time. Two months or much sooner is more than enough time to get results. You'll know the first few weeks if you are moving the needle or not.

[Purple-Bike in reply to Herman_PSA_OK]

Thanks, Herman. My platelets are in the mid-normal range, in the middle between the lower and upper referance range, whereas my white blood cell count is very low. So I will just try Shark Liver Oil, right? I found a couple of references on papaya extract raising the white blood cell count, but without any details.

[LearnAll]

Isolated low White Cell Count is not enough to make any definite conclusion. As for Bone Marrow Suppression and/or failure, one needs to see all different cell lines such as Red Cell count, White Cell Count and Platelet Count. If ALL THREE are going lower than normal value, ,then..It is a matter of concern.

[konichiwa12]

I've been here before with my doctor. All he has previously reacted to is PSA. I was worried as I got mixed up thinking it had gone up by 0.5 but it was actually circa 0.05. I just know I'm not a long term survivor so I want to blah blah blah ??????