The PURE study , the largest worldwide study show results contradicting old less well constructed diets
More on epidemiology regarding meat - Advanced Prostate...
More on epidemiology regarding meat
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Jalbom49
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52 Replies
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Let the online epic battle begin, keywords "red meat."
This is the "beauty" of medicine. To every study claiming X there is at least one saying the exact opposite.
I have not found this to be true for most SOC protocols...that is why they are given SOC respectability. Then again for certain research on topic A or cure A, what you say is true...though usually the studies have many design differences, so not comparing apple to apple.
Another observational study. Still waiting for well-done studies on diet. Until we have such studies there are reasons for great humility for anyone who tells other people what they should eat.
IMO (this is my reasoning to myself), if we wait for large Human population Double Blind Placebo Controlled Study's, we will never have them. Where are the large Human population Double Blind Placebo Controlled Study's for cigarette's???? One does not need this type of study to accept a finding is true & cigarette's is an example. Right now evidence is accumulating meat, especially processed meat, as well as red meat, whole eggs and dairy, have health drawbacks to their use long-term ..... IMO (this is my reasoning to myself), one does not want to be the last person to accept this with the evidence accumulating despite the lack of funding (to my knowledge, the "vegetable lobby" does not fund studies to promote vegetables, whereas, the the Meat, Egg & Dairy Lobbies do), AND the alternatives, an extremely low-meat diet of mostly WHOLE FOODS OR a B-12 supplemented vegan WHOLE FOOD diet with a source of omega-3 fats, are not bad for populations & are seen in very long-lived populations (Blue Zones).
I for one am not waiting for the last word (last study) on this.
Just an opinion. You (individuals in this group) are entitled to yours. This is NOT directed at "Gremlin" or any other individual. This is just a personal statement of some of the reasoning why I have chosen the path I am taking. Individuals in this group will have different opinions & reasoning ..... this is some of mine.
I am a sceptical by nature person. IMO the problem with "evidence" about diet is that they do not come from biochemistry science. They always come from nutrition epidemiology studies (which is not real science, IMO). Real science have two phases:Phase 1: generate a hypothesis
Phase 2: test and verify the hypothesis in experiments.
Nutrition epidemiology only do phase one. They never do phase two.
Thats why they are not reliable, IMO.
Have you ever heard a biochemical explaining why meat is bad?
Can someone explain how the Masai people of Africa lived well on a diet consisting of only milk and meat.
Masai--lived well for how long??? I believe the Masai average lifespan is around 45 years.
Phase 1 --- animal products are not maximum life span promoting ..... lots of reasons why probably the best known is nitrates in meats.
Phase 2 --- do a lifelong study ..... lots of problems with getting humans to comply with a life-long diet let alone the 70 or 80 yr window required.
Meat & milk saved the European population during the "little ice age" (from the 16th to the 19th centuries) ..... well at least the lactose tolerant portion of the population. Crops failed but grass grew and cattle ate grass .... humans could not.
I understand your wanting more complete biochemical evidence & eventually we may get this.
However, my reasoning (to myself) goes something like this: In the face of mounting evidence against meat, eggs & dairy (at least at the population level) AND the fact there seems to be no downside to a WHOLE FOOD B12 supplemented vegan diet which has an adequate source of Omega 3's, I have concluded the safest way forward is a WHOLE FOOD B12 supplemented vegan diet which has an adequate source of Omega 3's ..... I am not waiting for the last study to confirm meat, eggs & dairy have some poor long term health effects. If I am wrong there seem to be no downsides.
Just some of my reasoning.
Almost every food has been statistically linked to cancer. Most experts say that observational studies are 80 to 100 %
Wrong.
Typically regards to meat you will see a risk ratio of something like 1.15 to 1.3.
Unfortunately this degree of correlation is fairly meaningless. The best evaluations of cause from observational studies use the Bradford Hill criteria.
Here anything less than a risk ratio of 2 is effectively noise, and 2 is only useful if everything else lines up perfectly. A risk ratio of 4 is preferred and 9 is better.
The food questionnaires nutritional epidemiology use is the most unreliable. More than one scientist has called for the closing of all departments of nutritional epidemiology.
What the general public thinks is evidence is actually junk.
But it’s a free country and you are entitled to your beliefs.
There are essentially no risks & growing evidence of benefits to a Whole Food B12 supplemented vegan diet ...... additionally ALL the "Blue Zones" are areas of low meat consumption. I concur the meat, dairy & egg evidence is not ideal but long term human dietary evidence usually is less than optimal. Evidence against meat, dairy & eggs is growing and possible B12 vegan downsides are vanishingly low. I believe I have assessed the risks & benefits correctly. I am comfortable not waiting for the last definitive study.
I do not disagree with above. Observational studies do not provide proof, only suggest hypothesis for further study. I do no think we will ever have proof as there are so many confounding variables that such a study would have to be huge and would never be funded.
However, there has been an anti meat bias in our nutritional world not due to science but due to religious revelation.
Somewhere around 1868 Ellen G White, the prophetess of the 7th Day Adventists had a revelation of the Garden of Eden diet. Her movement was against all stimulants and regarded meat as a stimulant provoking sexual desire and masterbation.
The church practiced Medical Evangelism building hospitals and trained dietitians and founded dietary societies. Kellog was part of this
I do not want our food standards slanted by religion. It is hard enough to do good science.
Many of the people in the nutritional establishment who have power to set standard came out of Adventist institutions.
I learned about this from the internet writings of Belinda Fettke, and the church also openly writes about their history of Medical Evangelism.
in reply to Jalbom49
Do you really believe that Mormons influence nutritional standards in the 21st century?
I know many who have gone to school to study nutrition and not one of them would say they are anti meat because of religion.
In fact, most that I know are not anti meat.
Jalbom49 in reply to
Not the Mormons, the 7th Day Adventists. Lima Linda is one of their biggest centers.
Nina Teicholz who is trying to reform gov nutritional standards has said that vegetarians on the committees do not declare their vegetarianism as a conflict of interest.
She is the author of The Big Fat Surprise
Also it’s well established that in the 60’s
The sugar association conspired with and bribed researchers at Harvard to absolve sugar. Researchers had found the documents in a library and published in a medical journal.
Since sugar was absolved it cleared the way to demonize cholesterol and saturated fat.
So look up Belinda Fettke and read about it yourself . I was surprised when I heard about it.
in reply to Jalbom49
Mormon correction noted...but with respect to the sugar issue...I really don't think sugar is the issue..it's the refined carbs and the sugar substitute like high fructose corn syrup(hfcs) etc is the issue...I don't drink much soda at all and if I do I drink the stewarts birch beer, vanilla and black cherry sodas...they are my favorite. They use sugar instead of hfcs.
You're diet choices are working for you and that is what's most important. I tried doing a keto and while it was successful in the beginning I soon soured on it. I've since retreated back to the Mediterranean form of diet and am much happier...the only switch I made was swapping the conventional wheat based pasta. with lentil and chickpea pasta.
Jalbom49 in reply to
You are right, it is not sugar alone and fructose is bad for the liver. Did you know that regular bread will raise your blood glucose even higher than equivalent sugar. The amylopectin is bread is long chain glucose and the amylase in your saliva will start breaking it down before it leaves your mouth.
in reply to Jalbom49
Did not know that and it's probably the reason to avoid the refine carbs that are in most baked goods today and stick with the whole grain products that are now available.
I think you would also agree that for those of us that do not have a problem with blood sugar or have good insulin sensitivity, that eating a sensible diet is sufficient, Mediterranean in my case.
For those that do have issues and need special diets, then avoiding the foods that cause problems is paramount.
IMHO, blood glucose is highly individual. I've eaten a sandwich (OMG, bread!) on my way to oncology appointments where they draw blood and run a basic metabolic panel, and my blood glucose barely goes above 100. I never fast for my weekly blood tests and glucose usually comes in under 90. I've had several readings that are borderline hypoglycemic.
Cholesterol is a different story. My wife and I eat approximately the same diet. Her cholesterol is normal, mine is slightly high while I'm on a statin. Why do we always assume there's one magic diet that will work for everybody on the planet?
Hey Jalbom49!
The Seventh Day Adventist community in Loma Linda are one of the world's five "Blue Zones".
Currumpaw
I know. But there is such a thing as healthy user bias confounding epidemiology. For instance Mormons who are not vegetarian have similar statistics.
Recently I read that Hong Kong ash the longest life expectancy and eats the most meat in the world in the form of pork.
Jalbom49,
The "Blue Zones" have been studied for decades. For some odd reason humans want to increase their life span and quality of life--go figure? A "Blue Zone" is a community where not only diet but belief systems and lifestyle contribute to the longevity of those who reside within the Blue Zone. Most of those in the Blue Zones eat small amounts of meat and animal products. My grandmother was a Seventh Day Adventist. I lived with her as a child. The Mormon Church has similar lifestyle teachings.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Do Mormons Live Longer? - Dr. John Day
drjohnday.com/do-mormons-li...
The Mormon Longevity Study 1. Married. 2. Never smoked. 3. Attend church weekly. 4. At least 12 years of education. 5. Moderate body mass index (BMI). 6. Regular physical activity. 7. Proper
_________________________________________________________________________________________
As for the PURE Study--
________________________________________________________________________________________
PURE study makes headlines, but the conclusions are ...
hsph.harvard.edu/nutritions......
Sep 08, 2017 · Last week, The Lancet published results from the Prospective Urban Rural Epidemiology (“PURE”) study that made headlines: “ Study Challenges Conventional Wisdom on Fats, Fruits, and Vegetables ;” “ PURE Shakes Up Nutritional Field ;” “ Huge New Study Casts Doubt
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Currumpaw
Yep...I noted the mistake...I always thought they were the same...but now I know they are not...In my area of PA we don't have many of either denomination so I'm not that familiar with the distinctions.
monte1111 in reply to
Green means go, red means stop.
in reply to monte1111
Keats?
monte1111 in reply to
Sure. Keats gave us the Keto diet. I think mutton is way up there.
in reply to monte1111
Baaaaaaa-baaaaaaa
monte1111 in reply to
I think j-o-h-n would say baaaaaaa-baaaaaaa-banana
in reply to monte1111
Then again he might be upset we are picking on his favorite farm animal.
monte1111 in reply to
I am sure it is chickens. I saw a very disturbing movie one.
j-o-h-n in reply to
There you go again....... talking about 4 legged Greek lovers..... OPA!
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Friday 02/26/2021 11:45 PM EST
monte1111 in reply to
PA? My mistake. I thought you were The Boy from New York City.
in reply to monte1111
Me...I wouldn't be caught dead in NYC. That's where AOC lives.
Nice day in Sea Isle City.
Sun is peaking through at it must be a balmy 60 right now.
I'm having fun toying with that cesces character. Endless fun.
monte1111 in reply to
Don't you think she's kinda cute? You're in Jersey? Beware of garbage trucks. Be sure to pick your toys up when you're done.
in reply to monte1111
A little breezy but still nicer than home in PA right now.
monte1111 in reply to
Looks nice. Much better than snow and ice. I hung out in Harrisburg once, until I was caught and thrown into the Philadelphia brig.
in reply to monte1111
Up until she opens her mouth👄
monte1111 in reply to
That's the best part. Reminds me of The Rocky Horror Picture Show, which reminds me of j-o-h-n.
in reply to monte1111
I'm starting to become concerned about you. You seem to be associating every thing with j-o-h-n. Has j-o-h-n's face appeared on a three dollar bill? If it has, It's too late for you. You're a goner.
Nal,
You were a teenager in 1890 so I believe you called her Ellen
Humor is equally important for longevity.!!!!
To me that is the weakness in the vegetarian diet...the reliance on supplements.
We, as a species, did not develop from supplements but whole foods available on a daily or weekly basis (Distinction because starvation was probably a normal state for many until farming was developed) . We wouldn't be here today without meat...so I'm not at all convinced, while there are benefits for certain diseases, that vegetarians are healthier and live longer than non-vegetarians
CalBear74 in reply to
Read Buettner’s “the blue zones” a major study of longevity in cultures around the world. In the US the one group that exceeds norms in longevity is the Seventh Day Adventists. Plant-based diets are common among those living over 100. Buettner is not Adventist, he is a National Geographic writer. It is an excellent book.
in reply to CalBear74
Plant based and vegetarian are not the same.
CalBear74 in reply to
Yes of course they are not but many people following Dr. Greger at nutritionfacts.org refer to plant-based diets. “Vegetarian” is still popular with Adventists. I am a vegan but I occasionally eat seafood, especially lobster. Violates kosher and vegetarianism. As for Ellen G. White, I would recommend Walter Martin’s The Kingdom of the Cults.
in reply to CalBear74
A diet is a personal choice and I am steadfast in my assertion that if you need to take a supplement as part of your diet, your diet is missing something.This is a general assertion that does not exclude exceptions based on one's on nutritional issues with certain foods and therefore a supplement is required to maintain optimal health. Having dozens of supplements is a problem with diet IMHO.
There seems to be an assumption that new cells are only made from what we eat. But my understanding is that the body breaks down dead cells and in the process provides the raw materials for new ones. A good example is iron. What was in dead red blood cells is used to make new ones, and unless there is ongoing blood loss out need for iron intake is minimal.
Just a thought, probably most applicable to protein intake.
Hey tom67inMA!
Telomeres.
How Antioxidants Can Support Telomere Length and Overall ...
blog.invitehealth.com/antio...
Currumpaw
Eat a “heart healthy diet” is what my Dr told me. That can be a big variety from vegan to lean meats with fruits and veggies. Pick one that works best for you and helps you feel good and get busy livin.
After a diet of beans, rice, corn bread and in season fruits during my childhood, I now eat foods that people on TV eat while sitting in four star restaurants. I'm not going to bother rebuilding a boiler on a ship that's sinking fast.
Looks like I misinterpreted your reply as engaging in the discussion, but on a second read you carefully avoided giving any specific advice whatsoever. Well done 
1-800-EAT-MEAT.........
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Friday 02/26/2021 11:49 PM EST
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