Omega-3 rehash : I’ve looked here on... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Omega-3 rehash

Kaliber
Kaliber

I’ve looked here on the group and especially in Google checking to see about omega-3 which my GP asked me to take to lower my cholesterol. She asked me if I knew any contraindications with my complex array of meds and supplements. Here on the group there seems to be mixed thoughts about it and when I type “ omega-3 and prostrate cancer 2020 into Google I get back pages of articles that say omega-3 perpetuate prostrate cancer 47% , 74% and numbers others. Lots of articles from cancer centers that say it advances PCa. Problem is that I can find almost as many articles that say it’s beneficial. Overall, in 2020 seems like Mayo days it does boost prostrate cancer but others say not.

What to the brains here say ... like I’ve seen that Nal says he uses it ...etc. based n the 2020 info what is your recommendation. Thanks guys ...

121 Replies
Hidden
Hidden

Is that you Kaliber? Or another picture of one of your biker friends after a friendly night out at the local watering hole?

Just eat a can of sardines 3 times or eat salmon 2 times a week if you want omega 3...you'll get other benefits as well like good protein.

If that is you...I suggest you stop answer wifey back otherwise she'll close the left eye.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Hidden

No back talk to wifey “ the hammer “ or else. Yayahahahaya you have to sleep sometime and she doesn’t. Yayahahahaya. that’s what you call rugged good looks. You can’t see my 3’ bromine bleached blonde ( daily jacuzzi bromine burn ) pony tail in this view. That’s me alright. Hey I’ve been there before , like you said. 😂😂😂😂

About the photo: after third serious surgery to get rid of the cancer that popped out on my forehead, you can see another just starting on my nose. 8 more, an entire flush of doozies , popped out on my right forearm. All of them surgically or cryo frozen off now but not without some collateral damage and a couple on my arm are taking forever to heal but looks like they are dead now as well. Just an example of the Nasty crap associated with us PCa guys. No one ever wants this.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Kaliber

check this out: I am taking this stuff. One benefit might be reduced covid symptoms: ajmc.com/view/study-finds-v...

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to GeorgeGlass

Got my first moderna shot this week at Kaiser , scheduled for 2nd one in 4weeks. I’m already over 80% protected. Still got to get wifey vaccinated too, she only 62 and they haven’t gone that low yet. 😊😊😊❤️❤️❤️

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Kaliber

good luck bro

Kalibur...Some important facts: (1) Weight loss causes cholesterol to fall. (2) Lower calorie intake and higher calorie expense causes weight loss.

(3) High fiber foods cause lowering of cholesterol. (4) Walking and exercise increases good cholesterol (HDL) (5) Garlic lowers cholesterol by 7% according to German studies (Careful if you are taking blood thinners because Garlic is natural blood thinner.

AND ,Now the most important fact:

Prostate cancer cells use Fatty Acids to grow.....FATTY ACIDS....Please note it. And Omega 3 has fatty acids in it. Only a small amount (a handful of nuts, avacado ,flax seeds or pumpkins seeds) can easily provide enough omega 3. Avoid excessive omega 3 as your total fatty acid intake promotes cancer cell growth. Fight on ...my warrior friend !

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to LearnAll

Right on brother ... that’s exactly what I’m looking for. Great. I appreciate it very much. 💪💪💪👍👍👍❤️❤️❤️

noahware
noahware in reply to LearnAll

"your total fatty acid intake promotes cancer cell growth"

But do we really KNOW that? If so, how do we know? Because all that I have read (so far) indicates that it is not clear to researchers if PC needs DIETARY fatty acids or if it simply needs the requisite components (amino acids, etc.) to synthesize them de novo.

I am not saying your claim is necessarily incorrect, but if you have any papers or other references to look at, I have been looking for such evidence. If it exists, it would strongly suggest that keto diets are NOT appropriate for men with PC, and would promote progression.

dhccpa
dhccpa in reply to noahware

Good question. More and more I'm reading that, while there are things we should be consuming and things we should avoid consuming, our TOTAL caloric intake is just as important. Hard to overconsume fresh veggies.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to dhccpa

it's not easy to overconsume fresh veggies either. without other things, it gets really boring.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to noahware

My reporting that fatty acids are most preferred food for prostate cancer cells is based on explanation provided by Dr. Mark Scholtz ,well known Prostate Oncologist. There is a full video by him on you tube where he clearly explains why people get confused about what fuels prostate cancer prefers. This confusion comes from the fact that most other types of cancers utilize Glucose as the most preferred food. So an average person believes that ALL cancers use Glucose as a fuel. This is inaccurate as Prostate Cancer is unique in the sense that it uses fatty acids as number 1 preferred fuel, followed by amino acids. When prostate cancer really gets very advanced, it develops ways that now, it has developed capability of start using Glucose as fuel. This happens after the cancer cell colonies have become big and have installed their own blood supply ( neo-angiogenesis) At that stage, prostate cancer starts behaving like all other cancers.

As for Keto, there are other indirect benefits like weight loss and effect on Insulin resistance etc. The most beneficial diet, IMO in PCa is one with a lot of Fiber, minimum fats and adequate amount of proteins. Mostly Unprocessed, Unpreserved ,Raw, Natural foods.

I am not allowed to post video here by Dr Sholtz. You can go to YouTube and type "Does prostate Cancer feed on sugar" By Mark Sholtz MD and you can watch the explanation.

Jalbom49
Jalbom49 in reply to LearnAll

I enjoyed your post. I recently saw a study on a lecture on YouTube from Australia where the Psma scan has been available a long time, where both psma and tagged glucose both showed prostate Mets , sometimes not in agreement.

But according to Dr Sara Halberg, in a lecture, eating a higher saturated fat diet does not result in higher levels of saturated fat in the blood , I e triglycerides . If anything a higher carbohydrate diet results in higher sat fat. In her words, you are not what you eat .

Sarah is chief medical officer for Virta

Health, dedicated to. Defeating dm .

Eating a ketogenic Carnavorish diet, my Atherogenic index of plasma is in the lower third.

You can check your on on Dave Feldmans Cholesterol Code website where you enter your values and get a readout of multiple indexes.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to Jalbom49

She is right because EXCESSIVE amount of carbs do get converted into fats in the liver.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to LearnAll

I'm not discounting what you stated but it's the issue for all cancer patient is we have "normal cells" in our body that don't die and continue to grow. That is very hard to treat because you need treatments that do not impact the real normal cells.

I use diet to maintain a overall health.

I try to maintain what is considered a low-fat diet...but on the higher end...around 50 gms/day...

My macros are approx 50% Carbs, 25% Protein and 25% fat.

Majority of protein intake is plant based and my fiber intake s usually around 40gm/day

Wild caught fatty fish (sardines, salmon, etc) are a health choice pca patients...just eat them 2 - 3 times a week at most.

I enjoy a steak occasionally but no longer eat my favorite...Cowboy Ribeye at Longhorns medium rare. ( I found it be better than at Sullivan's or Mortons).

I can't be worried about whether eating this or eating that will impact my cancer because none really knows...all I know as of today my psa < 0.01 and my T < 1 ng/dl.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Hidden

to add to your point, I try to eat really healthy everyday, but there are only so many foods that fall into that category. When you start eliminating everything that has been suggested as potentially bad, then you find that there is barely anything left to eat other than vegetables, and if that is all you eat, then you end of with anemia and other problems.

noahware
noahware in reply to LearnAll

Sorry, you are missing my point. Let me explain more clearly : "that fatty acids are most preferred food for prostate cancer cells" in not what I am disputing. I am in complete agreement that PC prefers fatty acids! My question is, do they prefer a DIETARY source for them?

Because that statement "that fatty acids are most preferred food for prostate cancer cells" in no way confirms that the fatty acids need to come directly from dietary fat. So then the question is, what is the evidence for or against the possibility that PC require NO dietary fat at all?

It may be intuitive that PC must get its fat from our fatty diets, but I have read that PC creates what it need via de novo lipogenesis. So that would suggest at least a POSSIBILITY that PC might progress, or regress, entirely independent of levels of fat in the diet.

If PC cells are capable of creating their own fatty acids (and other "fuels") as needed, from whatever raw ingredients our bodies provide, then what really matters is the SIGNALING via all the metabolic pathways. Diet clearly influences that signaling. But the foods that provide the most "grow!grow!grow!" signaling would seem to be protein foods, not fats.

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to noahware

I do understand what you are trying to say. But, lets go to basic physiology first. All three major foods, carbs, proteins and fats ...are interconvertible in the LIVER. Individual cells other than liver cells (hepatocytes) do not have capacity to convert these foods into each other. Cancer cells utilize the available foods...but have preference for fatty acids. Because it takes effort and energy to utilize non fatty acid foods. It takes longer and is less efficient.If we eat any food in excess, liver will convert that food i first into GLYCOGEN (a big collection of tightly packed glucose molecules) . Once Glycogen storage in liver (approx500 gms) is FULL, the rest of the additional foods are converted into fat (lipogenesis) and this extra fat is deposited under the skin (SubCutaneous Fat) and over the organs (Visceral fats) and some float in blood as cholesterol and tryglycerides.

By having freely available ,huge amount of fatty acids in body, esp in blood (as tryglycerides) we are facilitating cancer cells to use it freely and generously. To use fiber-laden, carbs which release slowly (for example from apples, Guavas etc.) ,the availability of preferred food i.e. fatty acids are restricted to cancer cells.

One of the ways ,daily regular vigorous exercise slows cancer growth is by burning up tryglycerides and thus making them less available to be used by cancer cells. After I increased my walks from 4.5 ,miles a day to 6 miles a day one month ago, my tryglyceride levels fell down from 98 to 64. Interestingly, my HDL went up from 52 to 61. The only thing i added to my diet was 1/2 avocado in breakfast.

BMI and Body fat percentage are worth monitoring. Keeping BMI at 22 is the goal. Low Fat Body helps !

noahware
noahware in reply to LearnAll

"By having freely available ,huge amount of fatty acids in body, esp in blood (as tryglycerides) we are facilitating cancer cells to use it freely and generously. "

Sure, but keep two things in mind:

1) the existence of a huge amount of raw material means nothing without the cellular signalling that drives it TO BE USED for a specific purpose;

2) having high levels of triglycerides in the blood may arise just as easily from a high-carb diet as from a high-fat diet.

In fact, much research shows keto (a HIGH FAT diet) produces modest reductions in triglycerides, not increases!

We cannot simply assume that PC preferentially utilizes raw materials in the proportions that we ingest macronutrients. Everything we know suggests the process is far more complex. One thing we do know, dietary fat does not stimulate an insulin response. Insulin, though, is the primary hormone that tells us to take sugar out of the blood (that got there via the digestion of carb and protein) and store that sugar as FAT!

So is it carb and protein consumption, more than fat consumption, that is "telling" our bodies to BECOME fatter? It seems possible that even though fat consumption provides ready-to-use fatty acids, that fat consumption is not necessarily telling our PC to grow.

I am not saying that IS the case. Just saying, I would like to see more scientific research on the PC signaling that better tells us what is going on. Even Dr. Sholtz hints in another video that the reason to limit animal products might be because of the animal PROTEIN, not the fat.

The fat-eating Inuit population at one point seemed free of men with PC. Limiting dietary fat remains primarily an INTUITIVE approach. If dietary fat was used by PC as readily as you suggest, I think by now we would see reports of at least SOME men on high-fat keto diets with PC progression linked to those diets. I have yet to see such reports, and it would be vital for men on this forum to see them if they exist!

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to noahware

My bottomline is that it is not carb, fat or protein....its the total caloric intake minus total caloric expenditure....If we can keep our BMI at or below 22, we will be fine. Eating less food of all kinds ...and burning a lot of calories is what matters at the end of the day....Balanced diet with ideal body weight is probably safest way.\

Once again, I would like to emphasize that I do not believe any diet is a substitute for medical treatment. Dietary changes are just supportive and complementary to medical treatments.

Jalbom49
Jalbom49 in reply to LearnAll

I had struggled with obesity since childhood. Using the approved methods even with heavy exercise I could not control my eating until I started low carb in 2013 and am now 95 pounds down from my max .

I could lose weight But it would come back. I currently am successful almost eight years. An article in I believe BM J

Showed using standard methods after ten years there was a 99 percent failure rate.

Part of the problem is that sugar and grains are addictive with exorphins and endorphins stimulating our pleasure centers like cocaine.

Since more than half the population is overweight and either diabetic or insulin resistant I believe there is good reason to restrict carbs.

Recently the Pure study, a worldwide epidemiology study showed saturated fat has no effect on cardiovascular disease and if anything a protective effect for stroke.

I have no beliefs on the effect of diet on prostate cancer, but for everything else keto or carnivore may reverse diabetes or autoimmune disease .

Personally I have reversed diabetes and Grave’s disease. The second after I gave up grains.

So I avoid processed foods with seed oils and embrace saturated fat, just the opposite of the AHA advice.

noahware
noahware in reply to Jalbom49

" sugar and grains are addictive with exorphins and endorphins stimulating our pleasure centers like cocaine"

Nailed it. Even if one is NOT prone to obesity and diabetes (and I appear not to be), one can be prone to the addictive effect of simple carbs (as I certainly am). Even too much is never enough.

Like many others who try to cut back on an increasing consumption of alcohol, I found my easy success came because I just ate more carbs, and so could drink less of the alternate version of "relief." Trading one addiction for another, as it were.

While "just don't drink" can surely work, "just don't eat" is a bit tougher. But "just don't eat simple carbs?" It can be done! Congrats to you for sticking with it. I love hearing examples of it working.

Jalbom49
Jalbom49 in reply to noahware

I haven’t had a problem with alcohol, just the standard American diet ie SAD diet.

It’s pretty standard in keto world that HDL goes up and triglycerides go down. When you go low carb you almost invariably go high fat.

Thus it would seem to me to lower the saturated fat in blood plasma keto is the way to go. A prostate cancer deposit would see the local plasma sat fats, but I can’t see how it would see how much dietary sat fat you ingested.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Jalbom49

I've read those books too and I agree with you. The AMA is a disgrace and they are led by big agriculture. Their guidance has killed millions of people.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to LearnAll

you dont jog or do sprints, you just walk and were able to improve those lipid score improvements?

Jalbom49
Jalbom49 in reply to GeorgeGlass

I rode my exercise bike a lot , but for years going to the gym for hours every day did nothing for my weight or metabolism. Only when I went low carb and dropped my insulin levels did I have success.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Jalbom49

I have done both the gym and the cardio. Cardio is harder now due to artery plaque caused by genetic history/low HDL. I remember as a 2nd Lieutenant I ran miles everyday up and down hills, 10:35 2 mile runs and my first blood test result I ever looked at was HDL 29. The only think that seems to affect my HDL is wild salmon although I never did a journal to be sure. I need to start doing longer distance jog/walks like some people say works for them 40-60 minutes continuous. I am low carb. Started it after I got the cancer.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to LearnAll

this is a tangible post. I like when people use test result numbers. good info

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to LearnAll

but if you avoid #1 - intaking omega 3 then wont the cancer jump to option 2 and 3, earlier, and thus potentially cause the mutation and spread of cancer at an even faster rate?

when you say fat, do you mean the unhealthy kind, or all fats? It seems that nuts and avocados would be healthy and beneficial to us.

No advice on omega 3 but I like the pic.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to treedown

Kewl .... I’ll introduce you to my plastic surgeon, “ hack’em up Hannah “ if you want. Thanks big guy.😊😊😊😊

Hi Kaliber,

Here is a survey from 5 years back:

healthunlocked.com/advanced...

Of interest:

"C. STUDIES - Neutral."

"D. STUDIES - Negative."

"E. STUDIES - Positive."

Take your pick

-Patrick

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to pjoshea13

Yayahahahaya yayahahahaya.... exactly what I’m finding too. But what LearnAll says makes perfect sense too. Funny post Patrick, I appreciate it. 😂😂😂😂

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Kaliber

My cardiologist prescribed me vascepa. I take it, I researched it extensively and arrived at the same conclusion as Patrick, which is inconclusive. Moderation of omega 3 is probably best, in the form of low mercury, high fat fish like rainbow trout, which I eat once a week - 1 fillet, or lake trout. Sardines and alaskan wild salmon are ok but my functional medicine doctor told me they are still high in mercury due to the large scale contamination of the oceans worldwide. Maybe the sardines from scandanivia are lower in mercury than alaskan salmon but i have not seem the recent tests. My mom also calls it prostrate as well. I tell her its prostate but it's sub-conscious programming. I hope your face and head heal up and you do well with your treatments.

Jalbom49
Jalbom49 in reply to GeorgeGlass

Mercury binds to selenium which has a protective effect. If you are concerned you can take a selenium supplement, as I have done . I eat a lot of fatty fish and recently started on cans of Islandic cod liver in its own oil.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Jalbom49

then does the selenium carry it out and excrete it when you crap? I eat a brazil nut daily. selenium is contraindicated for out PCx so I dont want too much of it.

Jalbom49
Jalbom49 in reply to GeorgeGlass

I don’t know how you excrete a mercury selenium complex. It could be by urine.

If you eat Brazil nuts every day you may be at risk for selenium overdose. And certainly any Mercury In fish should not be a problem.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Jalbom49

I only eat one brazil nut per day I thought that was safe. I said the same as you but the fuctional med doc thinks the fish mercury is risky but he may be wrong

Jalbom49
Jalbom49 in reply to GeorgeGlass

He is probably unfamiliar with the Mercury/Selenium index . You can look it up. Most doctors are too busy to keep up.

You would be surprised at how much has changed since I was in medical school. The diet heart hypothesis persists despite thirty years of failure in trying to prove it.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Jalbom49

He reviewed blood tests every week and was the acam president. He said that the salmon raised mercury levels in the lab tests. Maybe he was over alarmist of the numbers just to get people to buy edta chelation packages which are very expensive

Are you trying to scare us with that picture? My farm land is full of buried bodies that once looked like the photo you posted.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Nonamelame

That's rude. True but rude.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Hidden

Haaaaaay now .... you should see what I look like with the bandages off and the swelling down etc. I look LOTS better in the pic yayahahahaya yayahahahaya. Love ya brother ❤️❤️❤️

No taking about those new cement slabs in my back patio. 👻

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Kaliber

Marlon Brando....I would guess..

I wish j-o-h-n would post a picture....after a visit by his ex-wife.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Hidden

J-o-h-n has tried .... but the cameras malfunction or break when he tries to get that “ shot “ 😂😂😂❤️❤️❤️

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Nonamelame

See post about slabs to xpo1 😂😂😂❤️❤️❤️

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Nonamelame

There is nothing under that bandage on my forehead .... its my homage to the performer “ The Weeknd “ . This when he wears his whole face bandaged for a performance ( not ) . Yayahahahaya thanks brother. ❤️❤️❤️

A face only a mother could love....looks like the pool cue across the nose....ouch...

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Boywonder56

Fun fact: didja know that pool cues have a tasty Lemmon wood flavor. Just say’in 😂😂😂😂😂

monte1111
monte1111 in reply to Kaliber

Karma. I was at the wrong end of a whiskey bottle once.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to monte1111

Me too before I finally realized the cap was on the other end. 😂😂😂

Omega-3's don't lower your cholesterol, statins do

Manson (below) in the only long-term randomized trial found that it did not affect the incidence of or deaths from any cancer:

nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N...

Other lower level studies have found an association with progression.

academic.oup.com/jnci/artic...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

My feeling about ANY supplement is that they are guilty until proven innocent. You have no idea what you are doing to your body and what effect it has on other drugs you are taking. A multibillion dollar industry depends on your ignorance.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Tall_Allen

Thank you kind sir ... that’s the beauty of belonging to this group ..... it has the medical brains to answer the questions . The group is lucky to have so many great knowledgeable guys here ... guys like you. I appreciate it brother , you da man. 💪💪💪👍👍👍❤️❤️❤️

sewmom
sewmom in reply to Tall_Allen

Allen, I disagree with your answer: Statins lower cholesterol. The way you eat affects your cholesterol. I lost 50 pounds eating low carb, unprocessed foods for 6 months. I also added Vit D3/K2, Mg, others + 2T coconut oil in a protein smoothie, butter to cook with, and olive oil/vinegar for dressing, WATER. My CHO numbers ended up in “awesome” ranges, though fortunately they weren’t so high above normal. But I doubled my HDL to 70, and TRI and LDL were 69 each (down about 90 pts ea) and total Cho was 169 from 239. Only with good food/oils, exercise, sunshine. Yes, I’m not a man, but was at the time (11yrs ago) with a total hysterectomy. Also my A1c was down to 5.0. Remember CARBS are what convert to fat (TRIG). There is only about 5% of population that has genetic issues with CHO. They are the ones that statins were originally developed for. The same with Acid Reflux meds, 5% of population has high acid, the rest of us have low acid and food tends to ‘ferment’ in the stomach allowing the sphincter to open and food goes up. Almost EVERYTHING that makes us have diseases is related to what we eat and activity levels. Unfortunately, the past 300 years have found ways to “process” wheat, sugar, seeds” into really BAD stuff, forced to stay out of the sun, and living with computers attached. To me, most drugs for CHRONIC conditions are the bad stuff and supplements taken as needed are the good stuff.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to sewmom

I'm glad you were able to get your numbers better through diet. I wasn't similarly able, so my doctor prescribed statins. That worked!

Statins certainly do lower cholesterol, especially LDL cholesterol. Statins lower the risk of cardiovascular events, even in adults who have never had a cardiovascular event. That has now been established as fact, widely accepted by cardiologists and other doctors. A systematic review of the research found:

"In adults at increased CVD risk but without prior CVD events, statin therapy is associated with reduced risk of all-cause and cardiovascular mortality and CVD events. Benefits appear to be present across diverse demographic and clinical subgroups, with greater absolute benefits in patients at higher baseline risk, and do not appear to be restricted to patients with marked hyperlipidemia."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

While I believe that healthy diet and lifestyle are important to maintaining good health, you go way too far. Your assertion that "Almost EVERYTHING that makes us have diseases is related to what we eat and activity levels " is particularly insulting to the 2.5 million people who have died from the pandemic, not to mention all the people who have died of cancer. Blaming the victim is morally reprehensible.

SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX in reply to Tall_Allen

Just Started statin ...numbers came down right away!

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Tall_Allen

A little over-the-top IMO. You're entitle but that doesn't make it right to be so rough.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Hidden

Judging by her lack of profile, she has no experience with men with APC.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Tall_Allen

I understand...I read her post to you and it was too simplistic Diet alone doesn't always get it done. I take candesartan (Atacand) to control BP since by mid 30s. it runs in the family so I do understand where you are coming from.

Do you have any info on ADT + Zytiga and CSS? There is plenty on OS and PFS but I find it hard to get info on CSS.

The reason, and maybe I'm wrong, is that being only 55 I'm more interested in CSS vs OS...I also make the assumption that a increase in PFS will also yields a increase in CSS.

Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen in reply to Hidden

In LATITUDE, deaths at 3 years of f/u due to prostate cancer occurred in 20% of the men taking abiraterone+ADT and 32% of the men taking ADT-only. (The 3-yr overall mortality was 28% and 39%, respectively). They usually don't report CSS when they have long-term OS on a clinical trial because of the difficulty in sorting out the cause of death. For example, knowing that cancer takes a toll on the heart, if a man dies because of a cardiac event, was that the cancer or the heart?

It is certainly true that abiraterone slowed progression and increased survival.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to Hidden

This is a decent article. I didn't start on the zytiga because i have coronary artery disease and low volume disease. This study said there was no significant difference in OS for low volume people although the graph shows more survive with Zytiga after the 36 month mark. I probably should have done the docetaxel at NIH at the beginning but I was in shock, despair and angry about shitty treatment I got across the street from them. I'd kind of like to add something to ADT now but not sure what the best option might be. Maybe the chemo. It's been 4.5 years. urotoday.com/conference-hig...

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to sewmom

some good info in there. What is the biggest factor in raising your HDL? Wasnt exercise part of your regime? I think coconut oil may be bad for prostate cancer due to the Lauric Acid promoting cancer growth.

Hidden
Hidden

I just picked up on your last sentence of your original post...If brains are required to respond, you will not be getting a response from Monte or j-o-h-n. But would love to see them post a picture of themselves on this site...I'm in need of a new target for my dart board.

😏

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Hidden

I always kinda come off kinda biker like , seems like .. probably with good reason .... but I could probably shock everyone here if I could find some of my pictures of me in my full black robes , turquoise rakusu around my neck and my antique skull bone ( real human bones ) mala ( necklace ) . I’m a retired , Buddhist lay minister ( married priest ) from the Soto Zen Order of Buddhist Contemplatives . I conducted the meditation group here in town , in behalf of the monastery, for many years. Pictures rarely do anyone total justice yayahahahaya yayahahahaya. I attended the Abby for a couple decades and been a devout trainee since the early 70s. I retired from my job as the supervisory biomedical engineer at the local Veterans Medical Center when I was 49 and finished pursuing my religious work for the monastery after that ...until I “ retired “. I have lived a variety of totally different lives in my lifetime... guess I’m a product of all of that. Probably most people go through many changes in their lifetime. I sure have.

😊😊😊😊❤️❤️❤️

LearnAll
LearnAll in reply to Kaliber

Well..Kalibur...Your ZEN like demenor is reflected in your attitude towards life . Body is not what we are....Body is just like a cloth..the soul wears...and like the clothes get old, torn and discarded...the soul goes and gets new body.No one is immortal..we are in this journey at different points but will end up at the same destination..whether we have prostate cancer or not.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to LearnAll

Yea I spent decades doing the typical Zen thing / persona you come to expect from robed priests. I’ve “ retired “ now ... I sit on my porch in my bib overalls , leaned back in a wooden chair , whittling on a stick. That’s it.

🌈🌼🦋🌸🌻❤️❤️❤️

monte1111
monte1111 in reply to Kaliber

What do you do with that stick?

MateoBeach
MateoBeach in reply to Kaliber

That explains so much. Thanks for the perspective on your interesting journey. Curious about what your human bone Mala looks like. Must be a tantric branch of Zen? I am a Shaiva Tantra sadhaka and meditation teacher (Acharya) in my retirement. But my own left handed praxis to ride a Honda Africa Twin instead of a righteous Harley. 😆🙏🏻

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to MateoBeach

Yea my mala came from Tibet in the early 20th century, during the 1905 rebellion there. It has 108 beads carved like skulls on one side. It was brought back by the famous Crispo family of Monterey Ca. They were world travel collectors and when they passed , their son opened up an antique shop right there on cannery row. I bought it from them in the early 1980s. I once let the once acclaimed world guru of mushrooms, Jim Dug-o-vic talk me out of it on devotee grounds. Then after he died a horrible death , his family brought it back to me asking to me “ release them “ what ever that meant. Everyone that ever owned it is dead or dying yayahahahaya yayahahahaya. Some claim it’s extremely hot , “ empowered “ , if you subscribe to that. I am trying to find the best home for it. I’m not discounting anything about it ...I’ve never “ used “ it for anything except personal practice ... but I’d be worried about someone having it and misusing it like Jim dug-o-Vic did. Malas are malas to me ... they are all about whatever practice they are currently used in. Universal tools for universal practice. Kinda “ a high voltage battery is a high voltage battery” , no matter what machine you stick it in. Yayahahahaya

If it’s got two wheels on the road it’s good ...it’s all good yayahahahaya. Now I have a Hardly A Davidson , three wheel ew-38 e-scooter ....electric moped . It does the legal e-bike limit of 20 mph and will drive for 25-30 miles on a charge. It’s specially modified to speed control down to mimic mobility carts. I can zoom up to the shopping center 2 miles away , at 18mph , in the bike lanes , then switch it down for side walk driving ... then drive up to a market trigger the electric doors , switch it down again ...and drive up and down the isles at .5 mph shopping. People kinda look at it , looks like I’m shopping on a motorcycle yayahahahaya. But they never say anything. I can’t walk much but I can find “ workarounds “ to keep my mobility up. When Covid is over and / or my wife and I have our shots ( I have my first ) ....I’m looking at renting a mobility lift van ($110 a day ) and taking my trike to the zoo, to the hike and bike parks and to Monterey to enjoy their luxurious hike and bike trail system. Im still trying to find ways to overcome stuff thrown at me ... I’m not dead yet , I’m going to Jack my QOL as much as I can yayahahahaya

💪💪💪🌈🦋🌸🌻🌼❤️❤️❤️

MateoBeach
MateoBeach in reply to Kaliber

Agree about the malas. My Kashmir Shaivism tradition uses Rudraksa seed malas since forever. You have to be careful with religious artifacts that have been taken out of tramples improperly. I don’t know exactly what the juju is but they deserve respect for sure. Are you in the Monterey area now? I fly to Monterey this Sunday for spine surgery at the Monterey Peninsula Surg Center on Monday. Will be hanging around through Wednesday before flying to Cabo Thursday. Staying at Casa Munras Garden Hotel. I am fully vaccinated now if want to say hello in person. Would be nice.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to MateoBeach

Yep the tantras were deep into the mystical practices. Genuine artifacts from them require proper handling and respect. There are parts of our training where we are potentially exposed to that side of things and it’s very alluring , but early on we are trained to not let ourselves be sidetracked by the magical / mystical world ...just keep our eyes forward and go ahead down the path of training. Plenty of that stuff in the celebration of Jukai to satisfy anyone yayahahahaya. I have my first shot ( yesterday ) , my 2nd due in 4 weeks. As soon as my 62 year old wife can get both of hers ....we’ll be back on the road again. We like the Monterey Tides resort , ocean side of the resort. There you are literally right on the ocean. On the lowest rooms, at certain tides ....waves can splash right on your window yayahahahaya. When fully open they have a top notch bar in the great room and their 4th floor restaurant is first rate too. Their Cioppino is wonderful ( no pesky crab legs ) ... even if it’s off the menu ...you can ask for it. Their seafood pasta is great as well. We love their room service breakfast .... nothing like woofing down about anything you love for breakfast while watching the whales feed and dolphins surfing right out your room window. I’ve got some great pictures of the whales feeding outside the resort. One guy there told me that he and his wife paid for the whale watching tour and the boat drove right over in front of the resort. Yayahahahaya said he could have stayed out on the balcony and had the same whales for free .

We live about 100 miles from Monterey in the Central Valley. The Tides’ outdoor spa and heated pool were remodeled a while back and are on the quiet side ( away from the noisy ocean ) and nice too. You can visit their web site,..... for that area they are uniquely situated and their rates are very reasonable. Always ask for the ocean side and an upper floor. Their web site has a great live web cam too. It’ll probably be April or may before wifey is fully vaccinated. Wifey and I are charter members of the Monterey aquarium, we just flash our cards at a special members side entrance and get right in. We can take in guests too. They are trying to control crowds by metering entrances but “ members , exp charter members get special access. I’ll have to figure out the mobility thing but I’m game to try yayahahahaya.

MateoBeach
MateoBeach in reply to Kaliber

Thanks. Called the Tides. Restaurant and pools Shut down now only in room dining. Will have to visit them another time.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to MateoBeach

Yea a great deal of this place is still hard shut down. Mark it in your notes there and when it cranks back up give it a try. 😊😊😊

monte1111
monte1111 in reply to Kaliber

I believe j-o-h-n is looking for a mala.

Boywonder56
Boywonder56 in reply to Kaliber

What your saying is youve lived intresting"lifes".....which is what makes us want to live...could you imagine 50 years bangin the same 16p nail.......

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Boywonder56

Ok I give ... what is the “ lifes “ part ? Its flying over my Lupron fogged head. I’m sure you are throwing something kewl in here since we all know that word can’t be used as a plural of life yayahahahaya. I’ve lived more than 6 distinctly different lives ... you are right I can’t imagine it any other way. Guess I’ll top it all off as a croaking cancer victim yayahahahaya. Wow .. what a wild ride. 😂😂😂😂

monte1111
monte1111 in reply to Hidden

There is a picture of j-o-h-n on this site. He is twice as big as I am. The first thing I thought of when I saw Kaliber's face was j-o-h-n-y get angry, j-o-h-n-y get mad.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to monte1111

Yea I think my plastic surgeon “ hack ‘em up Hannah “ was probably pi$$ed off too ... she had done this to me two other previous times in the same spot. 😂😂😂😂

I have evaluated a lot of the papers, as Patrick shows recommendations, are across the board.But I have made certain changes. Omega 3 breaks down to DHA and EPA. Most supplements have EFA as the prominent part of Omega 3. I have changed, by using only DHA, as the negative suggestions, as to Omega 3, is I found related to EFA. It is hard to find just DHA, but you can find products where the DHA is very much higher than the EFA.

There is some good science for my change--but will not present a whole outline of data from publications, and prefer to stay out of controversy.

Nal.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Nalakrats

I hear you big guy ... few dig into this stuff as much as you. Probably half the bottles in my supplement cabinet come from info you have imparted ( ie: modified fruit pectin ) The people that succeed in this game speak for themselves. Thanks for the work you put in.

👍👍👍❤️❤️❤️

Nonamelame
Nonamelame in reply to Kaliber

You nailed it in reply to Nalakrats posting. I have long gone with his recommendations regarding supplement use.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Nonamelame

👍

podsart
podsart in reply to Nalakrats

Snuffy put me on Nordic naturals ultimate omega 1280 mg omega-3, says “wild caught”,1 daily, especially when I wasn’t eating wild salmon —- does this product fall on the good side or bad these days?

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to podsart

I would prefer to eat the Salmon. but this product does have a higher value of EPA than DHA. Since I could find products with the reverse--where DHA was dominate--I made that switch, based on some recent studies---not all studies as you know are valid.I used Products similar to the Nordic Brand for years--and just made the switch. I cannot make an exacting answer, to your question. It has worked for you---I would stay with it.

Nal.

podsart
podsart in reply to Nalakrats

Thanks, what product u switched to

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to podsart

[NOW] DHA-500

podsart
podsart in reply to Nalakrats

Great , thanks

thats not music to my ears because vascepa and IWI (made from algae) are both non DHA cholesterol lowering pills. Vascepa did not lower my VLDL however, and I haven't tested IWI yet. They claim an average 25% decline in vldl. Are there any good supplements that have have the DHA. My lipid numbers overall are good (healthy diet and exercise) but my HDL has always been stubbornly low and my vldl is stubbornly borderline high-end of normal range. Maybe I need longer sessions of walking and jogging.

Don't know how true any of this is, but I have read that what is critical is not merely the addition of omega-3s, but their ratio to omega-6s. So the upshot seems to be (for those on a "standard" diet high in industrial seed oils, or in nuts and seeds in general) that lowering omega-6s is an important first step to get a benefit of eating more 3s.

I have also read that the fish-based 3s (salmon, sardines, herring, etc.) are far more bioavailable than the plant-based 3s (flax, walnut, etc.) That was the assertion of Snuffy Myers, among others.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats in reply to noahware

Correct! I try to lose the Omega 6's

Nal.

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to noahware

what nuts and seeds are high in Omega 6 and should be eaten in smaller amounts and which are lowest in 6?

As an aside, do we even know if "lowering cholesterol" in and of itself gives us a significant survival benefit? There has been a lot of controversy in recent years about how the levels actually correlate with heart disease, etc.

MY own LDL and HDL have been a bit high at times, but my PCP has always said, "you have nothing to worry about, your triglycerides are REALLY good." So I don't even know if I SHOULD worry, but I know I don't!

I lean more and more towards the idea that we need to reduce industrial oils (= fried foods and chips) and processed junk carbs (white flour and sugar) and that our "elevated levels" will not end up killing us. Plenty of recent evidence seems to suggest those oils and carbs may play as big a role (or bigger) in heart disease as saturated fats.

timotur
timotur in reply to noahware

As far as BCR goes, this study presents the following:

Elevated serum triglycerides were associated with increased risk of prostate cancer recur- rence. Cholesterol, LDL, or HDL were not associated with recurrence risk among all men. However, among men with dyslipidemia, elevated cholesterol and HDL levels were associated with increased and decreased risk of recurrence, respectively.

So a lower reoccurrence risk could be associated with lower lipids.

cebp.aacrjournals.org/conte...

GeorgeGlass
GeorgeGlass in reply to noahware

I've read several times that triglicerides to HDL might be the most important ratio but I seem to have a lot of trouble raising HDL. Two years ago I raised it from 29 to 39 but I'm not sure whether it was from wild salmon, more exercise on the cardio machines or both combined. I dont think it was from vascepa or other supplements. The crestor definitely does nothing for my HDL.

I have been taking fish oil capsules for years, also on a statin of 10 mg, I take it to protect my heart, still eat fish, sardines in water on a sandwich. Did it cause the cancer, who knows always ate healthy, exercised, hdl has been in the middle 50s but the triglycerides are higher due to the meds as is my BP. I did stop the extra vit E, that supposedly raises the risk of cancer but another of other things do to so you do what you feel is right and hope for the best. My sister died from lung cancer but never smoked, ate healthy, exercised and did the right stuff. My mom had kidney stones twice so she cut out the calcium and dark green vegetables, only ate cabbage and cauliflower, she wanted ne to not take calcium but with this disease I would be much worse today.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Muffin2019

Thanks for your input brother. 😊😊😊❤️❤️❤️

I'm sorry to hear about your sister :( There are so many possibilities to what causes the cancer. Could be enviornment, water, stress, toxins, genetics etc :(

IMHO

Walk an hour a day. Eat a balanced diet, keep weight down, careful with any supplements, if on ADT then a little extra calcium, and you should be good to go.

Hang in there Kaliber

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Fightinghard

Hi fightinghard ..... I get monthly blood work and my calcium is holding 9.5 to 10 so Im good there. Walking again is pretty much a non starter . Adt has mostly put me in a wheelchair, I can barely walk 20 - 30 feet . Even in the house I kinda roll around on office chairs because I can’t stand very long or walk very far. Thanks to adt my bp ( and bg ) is poorly regulated .. so when I’m resting or little physical exertion, it is about 128/74 - 134/76 ( with medications ) But when I walk ( say ) the 30 feet out to my truck in the driveway my bp jumps to 210/115 . It’s complicated to deal with. Adt is keeping me alive tho ... when I talk to my oncologist about , or try to ,discuss my loss of mobility, ... he just says my psa is good ( undetectable) and gives me a little hug and launches into the conversation about am I finding ways to spend with my loved ones, have I settled my affairs ... etc. . He is very careful not to instill false hope in me. When DXed my first recommendation for care was direct entry to hospice. A whole table full of docs tried to steer me into hospice .... that was 26 months ago. At a psa of 1400-1600 was my oncologist highest scoring patient at the time. My blood work was extremely grim and I was losing 17 pounds a week. My skeleton paved with mets literally everywhere , everywhere except soft tissue. No more scans for me now , says I’m way past needing those anymore. My oncologist seems to delight in me as a medical Curiosity ( medical freak ? ) of some kind. My GP is struggling to manage my screwed up bits and pieces ... everyone seems happy with my current circumstances except .... even my wife yayahahahaya. It’s easy for them to say .... I’m still alive but it extremely difficult for me to endure all this. Alive is better than dead..... more time with my wifey.... that’s the best part.

Thank you brother 💪💪💪❤️❤️❤️

Fightinghard
Fightinghard in reply to Kaliber

Hang in there brother. You are an inspiration to the rest of us Wishing you all the best

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Fightinghard

❤️❤️❤️❤️

Hi Kaliber, wishing you all the best with your continued fight. But no more burgers buddy 😉.

Phil

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Lettuce231

I met your cousin “ cabbage “ down at the farmer’s market recently ... said he was ahead of you. 😊😊

For 15-20 years before being DXed I was , by choice, on a strict keto diet. 50 carbs and 1000 calories. Before that I used meds for bp and bg but keto allowed me to stop using any meds at all.

Then right before I was DXed I started loosing 17 lbs a week and my wife freaked and started loading me up with carbs and calories trying to stem the tide of loss. Since my group of doctors wanted me to go directly into hospice with my initial DX ... they were all for me carb loading as well. I kinda begged for some kind of try at a treatment...anything at all. I didn’t want to just lay down and croak. My wife totally freaking out too. Oncologist kinda shook his head but started me on adt.... the rest of them with “ that look “ on their faces.

So anyway it’s 26 months past all that, my oncologist thinks I’m a medical Curiosity / freak and his first patient to ever do this. Adt caused all my body chemistry to destabilize, esp my bg and bp. Plus it caused my weight to nearly instantly jump 60-70 pounds .... seemed like almost overnight. I’m pretty much crippled by adt. I talk about going back to keto but none of my medical care group seems to hear it .... my wife and my care group seems good with my over weight issues. My impression is that my medical care team expects me to croak any minute , thinking it’s better to enjoy eating than waste the agony of keto dieting to no future in it. ...they still have me pigeon holed in that hospice DX and have looked past me now. Only my GP is left trying to juggle my blood work etc.

It seems kinda surrealistic ... kinda lost in a cloud of contradictions .... Lupron fog doesn’t help either yayahahahaya.

Whadda you think ....no more burgers ? What do you think you would do in my shoes ? .... under my circumstances.....go for low ? For sure I dunno . I like to think I’ll be around for a while .... I’m a minority in that thought ....

💪💪💪❤️❤️❤️❤️

monte1111
monte1111 in reply to Kaliber

Lettuce, cabbage, ahead. Very funny.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to monte1111

J-o-h-n made me do it 😂😂😂

Lettuce231
Lettuce231 in reply to Kaliber

I'm so sorry about your predicament, I don't like the way that you've been left to find your own way, it seems very unfair and not the least bit caring.

We care for here our brother, I hope that you weren't upset by my humour, you can Slug me if you like 😬.

Cabbage is a very distant cousin, but our most famous family member is Curly Kale, he does great " green grass music "

Me and Mrs Lettuce send you our love.

Phil

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to Lettuce231

Hey just a “ heads up “ brother ...... I appreciate it yayahahahaya yayahahahaya. No ” dressing “ down here . ( slug me !!!! Ewwwwwwwwwwww yayahahahaya) Your humor is well rooted. 😂😂😂 I really can’t complain , my psa has been at <0.1 for 26 months now .. I’ve escaped hospice for that long, so far. I realize they caught me real late and usually people in that condition are basically untreatable and go quick. I’m a freak “ super responder “ ...who knew. I think my team has never had a super responder before and , more than anything, they are watching to see what happens. They aren’t expecting much but don’t have a clue what happens next with a guy like me. My poor GP is struggling to keep my chemistry within reason ...the adt the main thing scrambling them up yayahahahaya. I think my doctors are just trying to be careful that I don’t read more into my possibilities .... like my First GP said in that grim voice ... “ you’ve got a LOT going on down there “ yayahahahaya.

I really appreciate all the great brothers and sisters here on the group ...member medical knowledge is the best and most up to date available ... lots of tough soldiers all fighting the same war together. Thanks for your good thoughts from the “ bunch “ .

😂😂😂😊😊😊❤️❤️❤️

I quit my supplementation of Omega - something I took a LOT of for my arthritis - due to the anti-inflammatory response that it provides.

To manage my arthritis, I've used a bunch of herbals - which does the trick nicely - I didn't notice the 'removal' of omega 3 as having negative effect on my condition(s) - so it stays off the list.

My assessment is based on the fact that enough articles point to statistical evidence about PCa progression and omega3.

I suspect that 'advocates' for omega aren't aware of the PCa link(s) - so they would continue to think it is a good thing to consume.

I'm done with omega3 supplementation - as usual, it is buyer beware and keep up with the revelations and developments when it applies to supplementation and new / currently known interactions. It's about keeping plugged in to forums like these where this information and data becomes available.

Wishing you the best on your journey .....

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to RonnyBaby

I hear that brother ...that’s exactly my thoughts too . If you know that you throw fertilizer on flowers... you expect them to grow yayahahahaya. Im still waiting for my GP to get back to me ..I’m gonna shove it off on her and let her earn those big medical bucks yayahahahaya

Love ya buddy ❤️❤️❤️❤️

RonnyBaby
RonnyBaby in reply to Kaliber

Just following pjoshea13's link pointing to numerous articles (5 years ago) that were numerous and typically contradictory of each one.

It was like watching (aka reading about ) a ping-pong game.

How are you supposed to come to any type of conclusion with that Tower of Babel ?

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to RonnyBaby

No ....that’s his point. The thinking about all that is all over the place yayahahahaya. He certainly has a good point , and you can see it still reflected here too.. ❤️❤️❤️

RonnyBaby
RonnyBaby in reply to Kaliber

AGREED - 4 sure ......

I've seen this debate before many times. Cancer, like nutrition, is not an exact science.

I asked my Doc once about "Choline" and if it's bad to consume since it's in Eggs and Chicken. He said prostate cancer is going to look for ANYTHING to eat. He just said eat clean and you'll be okay.

I'm going to just go with that.

Sounds wise to me .... thanks for your input FBM , I appreciate it. 😊😊😊❤️❤️❤️

Cant wait to see the after picture's!!!

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to SPEEDYX

My wifey “ the hammer “ said she likes the “ before “ pictures better. oUCH ! 😂😂😂😂❤️❤️❤️

SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX in reply to Kaliber

😂

When I had hernia surgery I was told "don't worry, but your testicles will turn blue". They didn't mention 13 inch swinging d*ck would turn blue, and then black. I was thinking about starring in a porno.

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to monte1111

Uh tmi tmi tmi tmi tmi tmi tmi ....and dreamer ... 😂😂😂😂❤️❤️❤️❤️

To solve the "should I or shouldn't I" worry about ingesting Omega-3 affecting my Pca, I have come up with a great solution. Hook one sardine (preferably one in olive oil) on a string and swallow it whole and then retrieve it by pulling up on the string. This way you get your Omega-3 without getting it..... (This also works with sausages) ....

I have seen some references about me in this post, and would love to respond to them but I can't think of anything funny... so here are some I.O.U.s

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 02/24/2021 11:42 PM EST

Kaliber
Kaliber in reply to j-o-h-n

Probably lose a lot of weight that way too yayahahahaya.

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