Folic acid, Vitamin B12 and PCM.

After blood work for neuropathy, I was found deficient in folate and B12. The neurologist recommended folic acid 1 mg every daily and vitamin B12 1000 mcg every day. I have read that both folic acid and B12 may accelerate PCM. Does anyone have any experiences taking these supplements?

[noahware]

For what it's worth, I went on a rather extreme keto diet right after dx (declining any treatment), and in a few months lost a bunch of weight and saw PSA drop from 20 to 13. My PCP was impressed, but said I was slightly anemic and should take some B12 and folate.

Now stupidly, I did not pay close attention to suggested dosage and took a "more is better" approach. (I can't recall how much "more" at the moment, but could reconstruct that info, if it helps.) I also become MUCH less strict in my diet, adding lots more protein as well as flax and soy milk. A few months later, my PSA had doubled to 26. Did a little research, and found a case study of B12/folate mega-dosing causing PC progression in a man, then fixed when he quit.

There is no way to know EXACTLY why my PSA declined and then bounced way up. I dropped both the vitamins and the soy/flax foods, but kept the higher protein/higher cal diet, and a few months later my PSA was still rising. So stopping the vitamins did not reverse PSA progression... but, why would it, absent any treatment at the time?

Here is that case study:

jmedicalcasereports.biomedc...

[EdBar]

I don’t have experience taking them however my MO Dr. Sartor, strongly advised against taking B12. He said prostate cancer loves it.

Ed

[Hidden in reply to EdBar]

This is valuable as I make the case against taking B 12. Thank you.

[EdBar in reply to Hidden]

The other one that he said the steer clear from was vitamin E

[pjoshea13]

Folic acid / folate is the common methyl donor in the diet. It allows homocysteine to be recycled back to methionine, and on to SAM (SAMe) which is the universal methyl donor in the body.

PCa loves methyl and is often hypermethylated. The cancer uses it to silence the DNA promoter regions for tumor suppressor genes. This is an epigenetic change & therefore reversible.

Vitamin B12 is a cofactor in the homocysteine-methionine conversion.

Restriction of either folate (& other methyl donors, such as beets (betaine)) or B12 is protective, but one must be careful with longterm B12 restriction.

-Patrick

[noahware in reply to pjoshea13]

As an aside, what do you think of any potential for a methonine-restricted diet to help fight PC?

[pjoshea13 in reply to noahware]

I wrote about this 4 years ago under the heading of selective amino acid restriction.

If we limit protein intake, we reduce levels of IGF-I. The body will not produce a growth factor if the building blocks aren't there. IGF-I is a key driver of PCa.

There are 20 amino acids involved in protein building & we only need to restrict one. Which is possible with a vegan diet. (Omnivores or others who ingest fully-formed protein would have to limit their daily intake.) Methionine restriction would have fewer repercussions (amino acids have multiple roles) & the bonus would be to inhibit hypermethylation.

The snag is that folate keeps the SAM cycle going (methionine>>>SAM>>>homocysteine>>>methionine). Vegans get an ample supply of folate from green leaves (folate & foliage have the same root.) So vegans would have to restrict B12 - which many of them do unconsciously.

In America and countries that follow the FDA-mandated fortification of grains with folic acid, it can be difficult to limit folate. In Europe & other parts of the world that worried about the effect on cancer & refused to fortify, folate restriction is easy.

And for men with age-related reduced production of intrinsic factor, which is needed for B12 uptake in the gut, methionine restriction is a beneficial side effect.

-Patrick

[noahware in reply to pjoshea13]

Thanks... this is in line with why I thought a low-protein keto diet might have some benefit.

I did a search for that post (@ 4 yrs) but could not find it. Is there anything in it you did not mention above?

And PS -- thanks again, for all you post!

[pjoshea13 in reply to noahware]

Thanks, I did consider giving the link but thought I could spare you a long read. LOL

Best, -Patrick

[PhilipSZacarias in reply to pjoshea13]

Your reply was succinct and excellent as usual. I stopped taking B12 a long time for the same reasons. I occasionally request a B12 test when routine blood is performed to track status. Cheers, Phil

[Hidden in reply to pjoshea13]

Thanks for this. I am going to forward it to my oncologist.

[Hidden in reply to pjoshea13]

I take omeprazole, a stomach acid reducer, to deal with a hiatal hernia / GERD. I've been warned that low stomach acid could lead to a B12 deficiency. B12 deficiency, according to Dr Oz, could lead to irreversible brain damage. Seems like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do I sacrifice my brain to battle prostate cancer or promote the health of my brain and take my chances with prostate cancer? Is there a middle path there somewhere?

[pjoshea13 in reply to Hidden]

We abuse many parts of the body when we are treated for PCa, but there is no need to trade brain damage for PCa control.

The big 4 with B12 deficiency are pernicious anemia, neuropathy, myelopathy & dementia. By the time that we experience symptoms, the damage is done & cannot be completely reversed.

My last B12 test result was 194 (211-946) pg/mL. Labs vary & definitions of deficiency levels vary too, but I believe that I am in the "insufficiency" range. The middle path.

-Patrick

[monte1111 in reply to Hidden]

So, taking advice from Dr. Oz. As the scarecrow sang "If I only had a brain." I'm not sure about a middle path. Have you tried the yellow brick road? When my blood work (which didn't test for B12) first showed anemia Dr. said to take B12. When the B12 blood work came back I was fine and I quit the B12. ADT is really taking a toll on my memory. Don't know if it's reversible but I'm quite sure death isn't. So, yes, a lot of us are between a rock and a cemetery.

[Hidden in reply to monte1111]

Well, not sure if you are just riffing on the name Oz or disparaging his advice.

webmd.com/heartburn-gerd/ne...

healthline.com/nutrition/vi...

I don't seem to have any of those listed symptoms although my short term memory is going to hell. Maybe I should get tested for B12 levels.

[monte1111 in reply to Hidden]

I take occasional acid reducers myself. Even got some omeprazole samples in the mail. I try to resist and eat a cracker instead. I have almost every symptom in your links. I was going to say except for being yellow, but I'm sure I remember j-o-h-n calling me yellow once. The links bothered me enough that I popped a B12. I have a friend who gets regular B12 shots. I have anemia, foot neuropathy and after looking up myelopathy, probably have that too. (T-12 compression and 2 bad lumbar disks.) Sounds like dementia is nearer than I thought. Oh, well. One thing I like about this site: It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Enjoy.

[j-o-h-n in reply to monte1111]

I never called you yellow..... I called you "off white".............

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 5:39 PM DST

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I had gastroscopy along with which the doc prescribed 3 months of Proton Pump Inhibitors* (PPI) that I took. Until this time my PSA was stable, seven months after RP, at 0.02 on monthly tests. Coincidentally (?) the PSA started raising to 0.03, 0.04, 0.05 where it holds for the last 3 tests. I have read that PPIs promote PCa.

(*) Lansoprazole

[j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden]

Shoot..... first the little one brain ..... next the big one.......... We're stuck between a rock and Krytonite.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 6:42 PM DST

[Jaroslav]

Hi! In any case, before you start to take synthetic folic acid, check your genes for the MTHFR mutation!

[monte1111 in reply to Jaroslav]

Good advice. I thought MTHFR was a joke at first.

[Jaroslav in reply to monte1111]

There is a close relationship between synthetic folic acid and PCa, provided your MTHFR genes are mutated. You can find it in many publications.

[treedown]

I will find out in 3 weeks. I started B12 to see if it would bring up my RBC count , as I have cut out red meat for the most part and eat meat in small amounts infrequently. As of last week my RBC are back up as is my Hemoglobin. I take my next PSA in a few weeks when I get inj 5 of Lupron.

[cashlessclay]

I have been supplementing a mostly vegan diet with "Methyl B-12" for close

to two years. The diet has been working fine with a PSA "halving time" of 19 months.

Without the diet, my current PSA would be about 450 ng/mL. This is based on a PSADT

of 7 months and a SRT failure date of 3/21/2013.

As of this Monday, my PSA was measured at 0.243 ng/mL.

[j-o-h-n]

Enter stageright "Hark I hear the cannons roar!"

Would you please provide us with your Bio data: Age? Location? Scores psa/gleason? Treatment(s) to date? Treatment center(s)? Doctor's name(s)? Thank You!!!

All info is voluntary but it helps us help you and helps us too.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 5:44 PM DST

[Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n]

I'm 72, diagnosed with a Gleason 8 in March of 2019 after a PSA of 17.9 a month earlier during routine blood work. PSMA at UCLA in June 2019 showed no metastasis outside the prostate but did show capsular extension. Had robotic prostatectomy in July 2019. Eight days after procedure surgeon declared me "cancer free"! He was wrong. First post op PSA was 0.5 followed by 0.9 then 1.8. all within a three month period. Axumin scan showed right lymph node involvement. Another PSMA at UCLA confirmed. Did the first PSMA miss this or did the metastasis occur after surgery? I'll never know. Those PSMA’s are not covered by insurance and cost $2800 each so in a four month span cost me just under 6 thousand. After meeting with a City of Hope oncologist and a UCLA oncologist the treatment plan was for Casodex, replaced by Lupron injections every three months. I am getting my 4th injection on Sept 14th. I also recently completed 37 sessions of radiation to the pelvic area. I live in Los Angeles.

[noahware in reply to Hidden]

"Eight days after procedure surgeon declared me "cancer free"! He was wrong. "

Gee, where have I heard THAT before?

Some of us believe PC is intrinsically systemic, but NOT that it is intrinsically lethal. In general, I think we can get the nutrients we need via diet. But our diets often are 1) excessive in energy intake, especially carbs and protein (promoting growth factors and tumors) and 2) excessive in duration of consumption, where we eat virtually nonstop 16 hours a day (when eating perhaps only twice in an 8-hr window would limit insulin response and corresponding metabolic/hormonal responses).

The single supplement exception I feel certain about (of many possible) is vitamin D. In northern climes, we simply do not make enough in non-summer months. I do 5k IU a day, and some suggest 2k as a min and 10k as a max. Buyer beware.

[j-o-h-n]

exit stageleft, Thank you for you quick and "detailed" response. It may be a good idea to copy and paste your detailed bio on your home page. This way when questioned for it or to show it to another member it will be available. What a shame, sounds like the surgeon jumped the gun. 6 grand for who's mistake you'll never know. I no longer consider myself a patient I am a customer... Well you have come to the right place for help and for info. So keep posting here.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 6:25 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

You Snagglepuss!!!

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Y

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 6:39 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

Cartoon exit stage left Snagglepuss

[Hidden in reply to SPEEDYX]

Running all the way!

[SPEEDYX in reply to Hidden]

You got it!!!!

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Y

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 6:49 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

Y...left or right

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

Rush YYZ

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Y

end

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 7:07 PM DST

[Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n]

Done. Thanks John.

[SPEEDYX]

And you know your left from the right😂

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

youtube.com/watch?v=mhgWKUz...(Not working as expected?)

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 7:11 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

The Best

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

my oncologist........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 7:20 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

So true

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Doubles in a Korean nail salon.......

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 7:34 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

I know the place in flushing!

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Ha Ha..... to pick one out use scientific method, just close your eyes...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 7:47 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

Thats what I do

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

By feeling for the knobs?

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 7:54 PM DST

[SPEEDYX]

Hi End Audiophile Ones

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Next time dial in the correct channel.... I can't hear you...

ciao....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/03/2020 10:03 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

What is your frequency.

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

WACK on and off your dial..........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 12:43 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

No chance now!!!

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Snagglepuss.................. Y

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 12:40 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

Got it😂

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Next step.... I was going to draw a picture of one......

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 12:46 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

I didn't know you can draw too.

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

(!)

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 12:49 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

Amazing...an abstract artist...and I thought Wassily Kandinsky was the father of abstract art

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

I actually bought one of his paintings at a garage sale.... it looked just like a whole pizza......so I ate it........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 1:03 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

That explains everything....and it is hard to resist the craving for pizza abstract or not!!!

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

You know the saying "I couldn't resist temptation"..........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 1:17 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

It's the Italian in all of us

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

🐹

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 12:55 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

😂

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Of course it's the Italian in all of us.... Especially Italian foreplay....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 09/04/2020 1:32 PM DST