I'd like to get some opinions from the scientists on this forum. I'm an engineer but not a scientist. I'm on day 29 of my self quarantine. Since I don't leave my home, my biggest fear of exposure is from the items my wife brings home from Costco and the grocery. We try to wipe everything with disinfectant. But, to be on the safe side, I looked up how long the virus is viable. They say 24 hours on cardboard, three days on plastic and metal, and four days on glass. What they don't add is that that's at room temperature. So I looked at how long can it last in the refrigerator. Yikes, 28 days!!! And in the freezer, over two years!!! Then I realized that makes sense. The virus is just a strand of RNA with a fat membrane for protection. Let's think about it like a fat we all know, butter. At room temperature butter is not very sturdy. In the refrigerator, it is quite firm and in the freezer, it is quite hard. Then I thought most fats have a low melting point. The average fat in food melts at 85 degrees F. Butter melts between 85 and 90 F. Maybe virus fats melt in that range. If so, that would explain why viruses are seasonal. If someone coughs or sneezes on handrails and doorknobs outdoors and the temperature is below that of a refrigerator (< 40 F) then the virus could be viable for weeks or longer. Higher temps could shorten it to days or less. On some warm days, metal in direct sun can easily go over 100 F, even if the air temperature is much less. Perhaps viruses are rendered unviable on contact (can't say killed because viruses are not alive). If the temperature to disable a virus was reasonably low, say 90 to 100 F, then perhaps hospitals could use a hot room at that temperature to disable viruses on PPE and masks for reuse. I know it would not totally disinfect since bacteria can survive up to 165 F, but with the shortages we now face, it could be worth exploring. Perhaps we could use an inexpensive heat lamp to make our groceries and deliveries safer. Of course, we need to know the temperature and also the duration time for the heat to be effective. I'd like to know your opinions on this.
Would like your opinion on Covid-19 - Advanced Prostate...
Would like your opinion on Covid-19
It often seems that by old age, we have discovered that everything we knew was wrong, incomplete or misleading. In 1977, the Medawars described viruses as "bad news wrapped up in protein”. But COVID-19 does indeed have a protective lipid membrane.
In our lock-down house, all delivered packaging is discarded. Everything that can be is wiped down with a bleach solution. Very few things need freezing. In any event, we are buying by the case if possible, to limit recent human contact. We wash hands after handling.
Has there yet been an estimate of the percentage of cases due to grocery deliveries?
-Patrick
Not to worry.... Soak in a hot tub for the duration..... after a few days you'll wrinkle to death...
Don't forget to wipe down your snail mail and your email....
Don't order Chinese take out food....
Kiss your spouse but only if both of you are wearing surgical masks....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Friday 04/10/2020 11:54 PM DST
Hey j-o-h-n!
Is it true that the alcohol content in "Corona beer" kills the virus? How much and how often should Corona beer be taken?
Currumpaw
As much as your bladder can hold..... However you must live in Corona Queens NYC (zip code 11368) or Corona California (zip codes 92877 to 92883) for the beer to have any affect. You have a slight advantage if you're Mexican who knows he's hungry... (the way he knows, is when his ahole stops burning).....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Saturday 04/11/2020 8:20 PM DST
Hey j-o-h-n!
I knew you'd be the one to ask! We all rely upon your wisdom. The last advice about ahole and discomfort--does that apply to any of the guys doing the capsaicin thing without capsules? I make a chili that is named, "The Sweat Off The Top of Your Head Chili". It is an acquired taste and not for everyone. Some organic ciabatta bread rubbed with olive oil, covered with fresh garlic chopped with a Zylis and into the oven it goes until golden brown. It is a meal.
Currumpaw
Interesting question but do remember that inanimate objects don’t cough and 99.99% of current transmission is from small drop of (infected) mucus we all expelled while coughing and even talking. The only real precautions with Covid is to wash thoroughly your hands prior to touch your face,nose eyes. Virus won’t jump at you, it’s rather that you carry them into the entry points...
Researcher showing how it spread youtu.be/EPNBHuu755E
Thanks Nc, good stuff
Very interesting. Another thing no one is talking about is that six foot social distancing is meaningless if you are outside and downwind from an infected person. The virus can carry a lot more than six feet when there is a breeze.
Thank you Capitan, Based on the video we got rid of all the pepper in our house and decided never to speak in Japanese until we get the all clear sound.........
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Saturday 04/11/2020 8:30 PM DST
This is examine.com discussing the best ways to store and disinfect masks. Some of this may be relevant to storing and disinfecting groceries.
What's the best way to store masks?
Make sure to store masks in an area or container that gets air flow. Some healthcare professionals are using paper containers and bags. Avoid airtight plastic containers.
Make sure to store masks in a breathable container that doesn't cause moisture to build up on the mask. For example, a paper bag rather than an airtight tupperware container.
When you take your mask off, remember that you’ve been breathing into it for minutes to hours. So store it somewhere where it can dry out and dissipate the moisture that has accumulated on it. For example hanging the mask, or using a paper bag as previously mentioned. Equally as important is not reusing the same container over extended periods without cleaning it. It's also important to give the mask enough space in a container, so that the container walls don't deform the mask.
What's the best way to wash masks?
You can wash cloth masks (but not surgical or N95 masks) with soap and water, along with drying it on high.
According to the WHO, sustained temperatures of 133°F can kill the coronavirus, so if you're using a cloth mask, consider washing it with soap and water and drying it on high.[63]
Repeated washing can impact a cloth mask. One study looked at the effects of washing and drying on a variety of cloth masks and found that efficiency dropped after several washing and drying cycles. For example, efficiency dropped by 20% after the fourth washing and drying cycle. The pores within the cloth can change in size and shape, and ear loops can also get stretched out, making fit worse.[64]
Does sunlight disinfect masks?
There isn't enough research to determine what effect, if any, sunlight has, but medically used UV sterilizing equipment can be effective. UVC machines may be effective as well, but are more dangerous.
First, note that sunlight is not equivalent to machine-based ultraviolet decontamination, which use high-powered UV sterilizing cabinets or towers.
Devices that are used to disinfect masks from germs are not available to the general public. The University of Nebraska Medical system developed a procedure to use ultraviolet germicidal irradiation (UVGI) to decontaminate their masks and extend usage.[65] Their rationale was that viruses, including influenza and single stranded RNA viruses such as the novel Coronavirus, are typically inactivated by UVGI exposure at high enough levels.[66][67] UVGI exposure in a previous study only reduced particle penetration by a tiny amount (meaning it didn’t make the masks ineffective), at a little over 1% reduction in efficiency. UVGI did moderately increase the chances of the mask straps breaking over time.[68]
Sunlight is not equivalent to these machines for several reasons. First, UV rays of insufficient strength may not penetrate deeply enough to disinfect the entire mask. The sun is strong, but also far away from your mask compared to UV machines meant for this purpose! Second, sunlight exposure also means outdoor exposure, which can introduce moisture or contamination to your mask. Third and most importantly, sunlight has not been studied for this purpose as UV machines have. So if you choose to go this route, be aware that the effects are not predictable.
UV-C is a type of radiation that is blocked by the ozone layer (so not provided by sunlight). UVC-emitting machines have been touted as a decontamination method, with studies showing that it can inactivate the previous SARS coronavirus along with a variety of other viruses.[69][70] Unfortunately, UVC devices are much more dangerous than both normal sunlight and other devices (especially for non-professionals), and can cause severe sunburn and retinal damage.[71]
Can you heat your mask in the oven to disinfect it?
Hot air has been used in studies for disinfecting N95 masks. It obviously cannot be used for flammable masks! There is no general guidance on using hot air, such as with an oven, for the general populace. Mistakes are easy to make and can result in accidents, insufficient decontamination, or other unforeseen consequences.
Stanford University professors gathered preliminary data on the use of heat for disinfecting N95 masks.[62]
Note that this does NOT apply to amateur home disinfecting, using an oven! That can be very dangerous, due to risk of an accident or improper technique leading to masks being less effective or not effective at all. The above study also did not test for disinfection of the novel coronavirus; it only evaluated how masks are affected by heat, with regards to particle filtration and mask damage.
They used 75°C / 158°C hot air for 30 minutes, over 20 cycles, and found that it did not reduce filtration efficiency of the mask. The hot air treatment also did not cause mechanical deformation of the masks, and the elastic straps still retained proper elasticity. Other researchers have previously suggested that 30 minutes of heating at a similar temperature be effective, when hanging the mask by a clip and not letting it touch the hot metal of the oven (which would degrade the mask).[72]
Can you microwave your mask to disinfect it?
DEFINITELY NO, if it's a surgical mask or n95 mask, or has any metal or plastic in it. It’s probably not a good idea for any other mask either.
One study found that a kitchen microwave killed avian Coronavirus.[73] Another study found that microwave radiation was able to reduce the presence of hepatitis C virus and HIV after two minutes of heating at 800 watts of power.[74] So what's the holdup -- why not just microwave your mask?
Three reasons: Possibility of melting, fire, and inadequate decontamination.
Researchers found that microwave treatment melted 2 out of the nine models of respirator masks used.[75] If there's any metal in the mask then microwaving can be especially dangerous, possibly resulting in sparks or fire. Lastly, microwaves work by heating water molecules, and dry mask material doesn't fit the bill. If the mask is damp enough to provide an overall level of moisture, then that's not a great sign for the mask being viable at all, as it may be damaged or contaminated too much for reuse.
Can you freeze your mask to disinfect it?
Probably not. Previous coronaviruse strains appear to be stable at low temperatures. Direct evidence on the novel coronavirus is lacking.
We don’t yet have solid evidence on SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, but other coronavirus strains appear to be stable at low and freezing temperatures for an indefinite period.[76][77]
One study found that coronavirus 229E was stable after 25 cycles of freezing at -70°C for 2 hours followed by thawing at 37°C in a water bath.[78] This suggests a lack of vulnerability to freezing itself. However, -70°C avoids the formation of ice crystals, which damage viruses, so this may not apply to freezing at lower temperatures.
Can you Lysol/Clorox/Purell/bleach your mask to disinfect it?
The short answer is no.
Active ingredients in these products vary widely, but often include a type of chloride compound that kills viruses by disrupting intermolecular interactions within the virus.
Stanford University physicians found that a 75% alcohol solution as well as chlorine-based solutions interrupted the static charge on masks that supports filtering, thus reducing mask efficiency. Bleach gases remained even after multiple strategies were attempted to remove them, making skin and respiratory irritation likely.[79]
This seems to be echoed in a previous study, which found that applying bleach-based decontamination lead to low levels of chlorine off-gassing when the masks encountered water.[75]
Can you steam your mask to disinfect it?
While steaming and drying could technically help with disinfecting, this method could also degrade filtration efficiency and requires precise procedures to ensure masks aren't damaged.
Evidence from the past few years has suggested that steam treatment can reduce viral contamination.[80] When masks are repeatedly steamed, their filtering capacity goes down. However, Stanford University physicians found hot water vapor exposure to be a possibly effective decontamination method.[79], but noted that caution is warranted because efficiency degrades to 85% after five cycles of steaming.
Some people have employed a method of hanging masks above a pot of boiling water for at least ten minutes, and air-drying the mask after that. This shouldn't be a go-to strategy, given that its specific efficacy is not known (lab experiments used standardized techniques), and the risk of excess moisture being retained in the mask (which would be counterproductive). Washing and drying homemade masks would be preferred over steaming surgical or N95 masks, if homemade masks are available.
I am amazed at the mandate in some parts of the USA to wear masks. I saw a guy being dragged of a bus because he did not have a mask on. The bus was packed with no sign of social distancing.
Australia has to date done very well in flattening the curve. In fact new cases are now down to about 50 cases nationally. Sure we have a partial lock down except for work, shopping and recreation. We have lost only 64 people with the youngest 57 years old. Almost all had co-morbidities.
The Health authorities here only recommend masks for health workers and those affected by the virus. Less than 10% wear masks. The key to our success has been social distancing, high number of tests, and fanatical tracing of contacts and isolation of the same. Also all people returning from overseas and inter-state are having mandatory 14 days in isolation in a 4 or 5 day hotel, paid for by the government.
Today we are likely to see decision to again begin surgery, open the schools and allow limited visitors to your home. (We couldn' t attend our grandchild's 3rd birthday party this week. We had afamily ZOOM party instead.
Excellent review, thank you. Got me thinking about available UV/UVC bulbs for utility rooms (wherever you bring in outside groceries, etc. As well as for masks (I use surgical masks so cannot wash.) Several sold on Amazon.com such as:
I have COPD/asthma and cannot afford to get infected. So I try not to underdo the overkill. We don't bring anything into the house without some treatment. We don't go into the grocery store, fortunately we can order and pay online and they bring it to our vehicle. We have them place the groceries in the covered bed of the pickup, frozen stuff into a couple coolers that we put blue ice into. When we get home we either dip & sponge, sponge, or quarantine (in the RV) everything. We wear our masks while handling the bags & groceries. Before leaving home we prepare a 4 gallon solution of bleach and water and have the garden hose charged and ready to rinse. When we get home we take the lid off and dip and/or sponge off with the bleach solution everything we can. Fresh fruit, vegetables, canned goods, stuff sealed in plastic, eggs (in the carton), etc. are dipped and sponged. What we can't dip and wipe we quarantine in the RV for about a week, for example stuff in cardboard like cookies, cereal, pasta, cat litter, toilet paper, paper towels, napkins. The blue ice is dipped and sponged in the bleach solution, the coolers are left in the pickup bed. We use a garbage bag to collect the newspaper and mail (without touching it) and tie the bags shut, have the oven set to 180 F before heading for the mailbox and bake the paper and mail for about 4 hours (to make sure everything gets to at least 160 for at least 30 minutes). If there's a chance our masks were contaminated we put them in a plastic bag before entering the house and bake them like we do the mail. Packages from Amazon etc. are left on the porch for a week or so, in a trash bag on the porch or in the RV if not weather resistant. (We live in Amish country, are 400 ft from the road so theft isn't a concern.) Prescriptions are picked up at the drive through and immediately put in a Ziploc bag. The credit card and our hands are immediately wiped down with hand sanitizer or a Clorox wipe. We "wash" our hands in the bleach solution frequently while handling the groceries and wash them with soap and water as soon as we get in the house. We are conscious of our hands and avoid touching our face. We started doing the above "for practice" a month ago to work out bugs and weaknesses before it was likely any virus would be on what we bring into the house. Probably overkill but we have no way of knowing if someone with COVID 19 sneezed or coughed in the vicinity of what we have to bring into the house.
WOW. That's a lot of work. At least it keeps you busy. AND SAFE!
My wife and I wear masks outside and use a lot of hand sanitizer, but that is basically it.
We do live in a kind of safe zone. Right now there are 13 cases in a community of 80,000.
Two weeks ago, there were 8.
What proportion of bleach to water do you use?
Recommended ratio for 5.25% bleach is 1:25 (bleach to water). For the 7.25% bleach I use this works out to about 1:35. This results in about 1.5 cups of 7.25% bleach in 3 gallons of water. Pine Sol is also effective, recommended ratio is 1:64. This results in about one quarter cup pine sol per gallon of water.
Thanks. Appreciated
For standard household bleach, per the CDC:
4 teaspoons/quart of water or 5 tablespoons (1/3 cup)/gallon of water
That's an interesting article but it doesn't give me the information I would like to have. I'd like to know the lowest temperature and the duration that would destroy the lipid membrane and, hence, render the virus unviable. It did say "
According to the WHO, sustained temperatures of 133°F can kill the coronavirus". I have no doubt this is true. Especially when sustained is undefined. That is a typical CYA statement from a political organization. But I'm willing to bet the lowest temperature is much lower. I think the membrane softens sufficiently at 98.6F to release the RNA to attach to human cells. We know our immune system uses a fever to shorten our infection. Since no human could survive a fever of 133F, I doubt that is the lowest temperature that would render the virus unviable.
journalofhospitalinfection.... this may have what you are looking for.
Not exactly what I was looking for but very interesting and helpful. Thanks for posting that.
In a few weeks I should be able to park my car outside and be able to achieve 133+ degF inside my car. Live in the Phoenix metro area.
Brother... despite my deep love of science, I'd rather be an engineer... we try to bridge science with applied practicality and social reality. As it seemingly always has, scientific culture continues to strive for certainty in a universe dictated by complicated probabilistic events, and in these days of limited research for research sake, good statistical information and uncertainty/error bars have all but vanished from informational graphics. Scientists have to upsell almost everything they do just to get research money to keep the lights on.
We engineers more often accept that there is no absolute answer; we are quite comfortable using a hodge-podge of the empirical kludged with the theoretical. Just factor in, say, 10 percent uncertainty and a factor of safety or two, and we have no problem putting something out there to get society moving....because, let's face it, that's what people are going to do in the absence of real information, regardless.
Scientists necessarily balk at this potential misapplication of fact; engineers simply shrug and say, "Well, we might as well have a plan."
And so we come to SARS-CoV-2....as a scientist would call it, since COVID-19 is the disease process, not the virus. Why is the term COVID-19 used widely instead, then? Simply because it flows better than the first, and because people don't give a rip about a virus unless it does something to them...a very predictable societal approach to the whole matter.
In all my rambling, I have a point. A "medical" engineer would stress that there is no complete engineering control of COVID-19, and that we are simply flattening the curve of COVID-19 casualties and death. The hope is that those that do have a severe case of COVID-19 will have a better chance at comprehensive care. This is a practical approach to uncertainty, and I have been pleased to see that the "flattening" message is increasingly prevalent.
Unfortunately, medical scientists upsell incomplete information, such as viability of the virus in different environments. We in the APCa world should know better in the first instance - trust nothing, suspect everything, and know that our best defense is being as healthy emotionally and physically as we can be. Ironically, I think we are better suited for this uncertainty than most around us...we should do our best to be good examples! 
My recommendation for those with concerns on COVID-19 environmental viability is to treat it like a hazardous materials scenario: The world is a "hot" zone - if you go to interact with it, have a set of clothes and reusable shopping bags that you use that never make it past your mud room/garage (this is the "warm" zone, packages also come here). Wash everything with a bleach solution - "oxygen bleach" also works - not just chlorine bleach. Lastly, rinse yourself off and put on clothes that never go outside the rest of your home (the "cool" zone - given that it only takes one viable virus, I would never call it "cold").
This process is logical and oddly calming - but I was EMT/fire for years and was trained and had to use the process in real circumstances a couple of times. Good luck to all!
Oh, for those with statistical interests: statnews.com/2020/04/09/its...
Chemotherapy Covid 19 
latest PSA while on fenben (now mebendazole)
Hmm... AJ's Covid-19 self defense garb...
Your covid prevention tip?
