Husbands psa has doubled to 3.9 in past 3 months. Now added bicalutamide to ADT. Anyone had good results? He has been on ADT alone for past 2yrs.
Bicalutamide?: Husbands psa has doubled... - Advanced Prostate...
Bicalutamide?
Written by
Jojoberries
To view profiles and participate in discussions please or .
Read more about...
55 Replies
•
I'd probably start asking a medical oncologist with experience in advanced prostate cancer about options like Zytiga (abiraterone acetate) plus prednisone, or other second-line treatments.
Bilcalutamide is an older drug that will probably work for a while. Once the PSA starts going up, you need to get off it quickly because it can feed the cancer. There are newer, better drugs that are more effective and will probably be needed later on.
If he has metastases, the treatment with ADTplus Zytiga or ADT plus chemo has shown to offer a survival advantage.
I had great luck with Casodex (bicalutamide) the efficacy lasted 5 years. If and when it fails then move on to Zytiga or Xtandi.
Too many doctors push the newer ADT drugs. I think that is the invisible hand of Big Pharma trying to make their money before the patent runs out.
thnx - 1 yr on casodex, PSA still <0.1
Hi jojoberries,
in 2016, Psa began to rise up fast to 5.6, and after 5 years of ADT,
so I had salvation radiation to PG plus 50mg a day of Casodex ( bicalutamide ) with ADT and Psa dropped to a nadir of 0.4, but within less than a year Psa was 5.6 again, before quitting the Casodex and beginning Zytiga, ( abiraterone ).
These drugs suppress the Pca, but don't seem to kill the Pca cells much but the response to Casodex can vary a lot because no two men have the exactly the same cancer chemistry.
Zytiga gave less than a year, then I went on to chemo, which failed, then Lu177, and also now Xtandi, ( enzalutamide ) and I don't know when Psa will rise again, but docs say it probably will rise because the Pca keeps mutating to grow no matter what is done to prevent it growing.
Patrick Turner.
casodex + finasteride - great stuff, PSA <0.1 for almost a year. long time no see, PT -- hope yer doin ok
Hi Rich22, I'm alive, written a lot here, just dial up my posts that cover a wide lot if stuff that I can still type about without old age and mental dilapidation preventing it.
I like the people here. The good vastly outnumber the bad, and its a nice place to be. We have this ailment in common, its usually a slow grow thing that gives us time to converse to seek remedies, warn others of side effects, swap survival mentality, and we all are a bit different.
I've had to give up cycling for awhile, a hip seems kaput, could be from old age, genetic tendency, or the long term side effect of EBRT to PG going through both hips to get to PG. A doc said the EBRT is bad for cartilage health.
May Nature smile and weather be kind,
Patrick Turner.
ya, age is a state of mind. i take 400mcg of huperzine-A with morning coffee... keeps my memory and cognitive functioning running smoothly. i have given up back handsprings and trampoline, but rekindling my nasty hobby of juggling.
Age may be a state of mind but the infirmities associated with it are , unfortunately, not : ) Had a lot of sports related accidents when I was younger which have resulted in severe arthritis ( genetic component as well apparently a not everyone ends up with traumatic OA).... in so many joints that replacement is folly... since exercise is so integral to maintaining some strength while on ADT I've had to switch to non preferred resistance exercises at low weight to maintain myself.... really wish I could do more effective aerobic exercise for heart health... but even cycling poses some problems..... on the plus side..... I do THINK young : )
Just keep the clown suit in the closet. We are deathly afraid of clowns.
Two cannibals eating a clown... One cannibal says to the other "does he taste funny to you?"
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Wednesday 07/10/2019 10:05 PM DST
Two clowns eating a cannibal... One clown says to the other "last time he'll laugh at me."
One cannibal and one clown are eating a cannibal... cannibal says to the clown '"Did you know that matter of taste is all relative".
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Thursday 07/11/2019 7:21 PM DST
One clown and one cannibal are eating a clown... clown says to the cannibal "Ex-wife means ex-wife."
An ex-wife and a clown are eating a cannibal... ex-wife says to the clown "would you agree that cannibal's tribal tattoos are finger licking good?"
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Thursday 07/11/2019 8:57 PM DST
A cannibal and a clown are eating an ex-wife... ex-wife says to the cannibal "yes, yes."
Two cannibals are eating an ex-wife ... ex wife sings to the cannibals: youtube.com/watch?v=8L6KGuT...
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Thursday 07/11/2019 10:31 PM DST
A horse walks into a bar. The bartender says, "If you think I'm gonna ask a horse 'Why the long face?' when horses speak Arabian, you're in the wrong joke. The only horse that spoke English was Mr. Ed and he's probably dead by now. I know, as long as people remember this fictional character, he ain't dead. So the horse finally pipes up, "Who do I have let ride me, to get a drink around here?" Then he taps the mic and says, "Is this thing on?"
Customer yells from the back of the bar "SIT DOWN... don't be a horses ass".....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Sunday 07/14/2019 1:23 PM DST
guy comes into a shrink's office with a frog on his head. the shrink says, "What seems to be the problem?"
the frog says, "I went to sleep with a pimple on my ass and now look at it!"
LOL now that was rich....
or "doc, can you get this guy off my ass"....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Sunday 07/14/2019 8:44 PM DST
when i first got online, AOL ppl were damn near addicted to sending jokes to each other. i must have a collection of a few hundred. but they're on a floppy disc and my old PC with a floppy drive is packed away somewhere. phooey! but this oughta hold you for a while:
RODNEY DANGERFIELD ONE-LINERS
During sex my girlfriend always wants to talk to me. Just the other night she called me from a hotel.
It’s been a rough day. I got up this morning, put on a shirt and a button fell off. I picked up my briefcase and the handle came off. I'm afraid to go to the bathroom.
When I played in the sandbox the cat kept covering me up.
I could tell that my parents hated me. My bath toys were a toaster and a radio.
If it weren't for pick-pocketers I'd have no sex life at all.
We grew up poor. If I wasn't born a boy, I'd have nothing to play with.
My father carries around the picture of the kid who came with his wallet.
When I was born, the doctor told my father, “I'm sorry, we did everything we could... but he pulled through anyway.” I was so ugly the doctor slapped my mother. He held up the afterbirth and said, “Look, twins!”
My mother had morning sickness after I was born.
I remember the time I was kidnapped and they sent a piece of my finger to my father. He said he wanted more proof.
I worked in a pet shop and people kept asking how big I'd get.
I told my doctor, “Every morning when I get up and look in the mirror, I feel like throwing up. What's wrong with me?” He said, “I don't know but your eyesight is perfect.”
My psychiatrist told me I'm going crazy. I told him I'd like a second opinion. He said, “Okay, you're ugly too.”
When I was born the doctor took a look at my face, turned me over and said, "Look… twins!"
I remember when I swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills, my doctor told me to have a few drinks and get some rest.
Man to 911: "HELP! My wife has gone into labor and her contractions are 10 minutes apart."
911: "Is this her first child?"
Man: "No, you idiot! This is her husband!"
Well, the trouble with aging is to remember more each day that you are forgetting. So you can't remember what you ordered last week at the chemist until you go in a week later for something else and the girls says "your Xtandi has arrived Mr Turner" and I did not remember ordering it last week, but I have a habit of looking at the long future list of things in my handwritten diary for next few months, then ordering whatever I need that will run out soon, but then I've forgotten I have ordered it.
So the habit is my saviour, without habits I'd be in a bad way.
So its short term memory loss I guess, and maybe my memory bank in my head is full, its pushed nearly all the hair off my head, and soon I'll try to get s terabyte memory stick installed on side of head so all my consciousness and subconsciousness and all memories can be downloaded. Docs are now working on where to put the platinum electrodes. They think they need to avoid putting the electrodes through bad habit areas. There's a vacant area labelled "can't recall women's names" that looks promising.
I've seen a lot of older men and women turn into arsoles as they aged, they just hate all things and ppl they should love, and are so negative their wives and husbands are forced to leave and the divorce is a superly disagreeable experience, with all reasonable solutions dying in the lawyer's office.
Thank you Nature, for sparing me this woe!!!
Thank you Nature for giving me the brains to see shit that could happen before it happened!!
Thank you Nature, for letting me be in this time of history, because if I'd been born in 1400, I'd have been burnt at a stake before reaching 35.
Sure, worry about your aging, if you can remember what it is you are worried about, but I thank goodness I don't have to worry about things of other ppl who I could be involved with who have things they should worry about but don't.
Now wear wer we? Oh yes, typing to Rich22, OK, could be doing all manner of other tings, like cycling around aimlessly for 3 hours, letting the front wheel decide wear next. But a bad hip is preventing such freedom. Pain teaches you to understand NO.
Duzzen Madder, I been through times when I hade to cease all hard exercise when knees went phut for many years. Weight up, I failed to notice the insidious weight gain, like so many do, but now might have become able to be sedentary but have a good diet, to at least keep weight flat, by means of enough green raw vegetables at night, maybe 2 eggs. One vegi sandwich for lunch. Small bowl of rolled oats at brekki.
Deng said, "...to be rich is glorious". Nah, real bad advice.
I say "to have just enough is glorious"
Dalai Lama said the meaning of life is to be " hahah, Happy, ha, and useful, ha..ha" and I always wondered who paid the bills to allow this monk to get around the world.
I retired from work in 2012. I declared myself to be useless. I was extatically happy, and Govt paid me a pension twice my earnings when working. Wowee!. Dalai Lama was wrong about the meaning of life.
You don't need to be useful to be happy. Of course well may we wonder how some ppl are really happy when we look at how they live. some of our elected politicians or "successful" pop stars make us understand the nature of faking it, but these get the chance to seriously influence us, bring us to horrible consequences or fill our minds with BS.
I'm spending some time now helping a friend build a music synthesiser using vacuum tubes. This brilliant man is a dreamer, and gets caught on details, but when he focuses, that's where the brilliance shines.
Of course he's ignoring about 3,000 years of musical instrument evolution that led to a wealth of sound to take our mind somewhere, not sure where some days, but for me, all the music written before 1950 has far more to offer than the torrent of "music" after 1950.
Am I losing it? I doubt it. When I laid the bricks on the house I built, and where I still live, I had a ghetto blaster tuned to FM station broadcasting only classical music. Beethoven is good, no?
I had a friend who said, at 22, "when all seems lost, there's music"
He was happily married for 58 years, but got dementia......
My hunger for exercise on the bicycle may not have protected me against Pca, but may well have delayed mental decline. Oh, and I also remembered to stop drinking anywhere near as much as everyone else was early enough in life.
Lunch soon, nice experience.
Take care, Patrick Turner.
Thanks for the laughs Patrick. Actually a couple of us were thinking of burning you at the stake, but no one will pay our bills to get to Oz. Enjoy.
Burning alive is a bit grim, but many were burned, others hung, drawn, quartered, beheaded, and all manner of deaths came to anyone who disagreed with the Church. Pca was just not anyone's concern in 1400.
Nobody knew WTF a prostate gland was. Nobody knew much at all.
Leonardo Da Vinci had to really watch out, he was gay, but the rich new about gays, and liked their art, and gave false reverence to any churchman trying to spoil the fun.
Patrick Turner.
in the end... um, bad choice of words... bottom line... damn, also bad choice. when all is said and done (ha! there it is), a sense of humor is the best medicine. or something.
i studied classical music from age 8 or 9 onward. Mom sang Bway showtunes and played them on the old hard vinyl 78rpms until LPs came along. but i listened to rocknroll and do-wop from mid-1950s until the utterly demonic degraded devolved noise pollution of rap and hip-hop ruined it all. i have a collection of fave songs, as eclectic and multi-genre as they come and that's what saves me on many a long and lonely night ( youtube.com/watch?v=i_EMDg3... )
Beethoven's good. Mozart better. Mendelssohn's Midsummer Nights Dream, Opus 21 outshines just about everything else, with only 100 or so exception. here's a modified version of Mendy's classic, comes in around minute 2. 1935, when it was ok to be an intellectual in Hollywood. youtube.com/watch?v=mlZ5oGi...
try the huperzine, buddy. got nothin to lose, may even gain your chains... bike chains that is.
What can I say, the sentimentality of old movies and their music.
Oh how everyone fell in love so easily, sweetened by such music.
Of course everyone was extremely sex starved and " a rearin' to go" and so almost nobody was extremely choosy, and the roles of husband and wife were clearly defined. Before most pop music went really bad, y'know, punk etc, we had a Govt that made divorce real easy because so many ppl just could not find the American Dream within their Australian lives. American movies dominated culture here and created absurd expectations which were rarely ever realised. Anyway, before the law changed, private detectives did well peering thru bedroom windows to photograph evidence of adultery, boy, were they busy! Court cases were torrid, expensive, ruinous.....
After the law change, divorce rates remained high, but the parasite private detectives were ruined because if two ppl had split up, its over, right, and personal, cultural, religious, moral issues were all banned from the divorce courts. Then came the property settlement hearing, and again, nobody was allowed to be personal etc. It was all about where the money went, who paid what, with children's welfare most important. But husbands who were alcos or beat the wives or both usually came out of the property court without the house.
You have only to look at the divorce statistics to see what sinners a lot of ppl are.
I was naturally a bit odd because I didn't much like the US pop music or US films, and preferred Euro and UK mades plus jazz. Folk came along and I liked a lot of that, because something that was worth singing about was sung about.
The classical stuff I like now is purist and does not evoke US style sexuality. I like Baroque period music best.
In movies I often find sex scenes un-watchable because they are so implausible. And of course being neutered by Pca treatment means I can't jerk off in a well done sex scene only the Euro film makers seem to get right without being all awkward. I much like The Handmaid's Tale now on TV. It explores the dystopian idea of USA becoming an Old Testament bible based society after the collapse of the national birthrate. Trouble is, we are humans and complying with strict rules is difficult even where many are hung to persuade others to comply. I like a few other very well crafted dramas and I don't like any reality TV shows, total BS.
Must now take my enzalutamide. Before bedtime, and away from other meds at dinner time.
I'm livin', still goin'.
Patrick Turner.
American puritanical values are still going strong, but the social revolutions we hippies started in the 1960s went a long way in ameliorating much of it. then horrific warpigs engineered 9/11 according to the false-flag playbook blueprints laid out by the Project for a New American Century and it was down the slimy road to create the FSA - Fascist States of America. ben franklin's aphorism "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - became a reality, as it is interpreted/applied to our civil liberties and the draconian surveillance structure we're now oppressed by.
but i digress. the hollywoodized version of Midsummer Night's Dream is a classic, although Shakespeare must have rolled over in his grave seeing it. i prefer purity in art as well, and saw quite of few Joe Papp's productions in NYC's Central Park for free. there are still rogue theatre troupes there, performing in the more remote areas for people willing to sit on the grass and rocks but what's my point here?
Mostly that sex and love relationships are highly overrated. nice if you have it, but we septuagenarians have better entertainment by far. hang in there, brother. the best is yet to come.
While ppl have work and just enough dough to get by, with low unemployment they don't see that they are oppressed, so there are not a million ppl in Washington threatening to tear the joint apart.
But things could always change. Hong Kong had a million on the streets over just a little issue of expedition of its citizens to mainland China. That issue will not go away though.
I could buy a 2 bedroom house on 880sq.M and 6km sway from city centre in our national capitol Canberra for $28,000 or about 2.8 years of my average wage of $10,000 in 1976. Now the price for the same thing at 26km away from city centre is about $650,000, or about 10 times average wages. So how come us little ppl were all dis-enfranchised?
Because housing is so unaffordable, and young folks are frightened or climate change, they are not breeding like they used to. Too hard, too expensive, and quite pointless, for both men and women.
Birthrate in China is not increasing after they abolished the one child per couple in 2016. So because of greed and several other factors, we are already limiting our population at least in western countries.
And china seems determined to keep a file on every person and track where they are, what they are doing. Good for law and order until a tyrant begins to rule, and then ppl will just disappear...…….no good complaining.....
Anyway, my concerns of a possible dystopian future just don't matter as everyone younger heads for it, not really knowing where they are going.
I'll probably die before anarchy becomes popular, and then you'd find that getting a fix for Pca or some bread at the shop to both be very difficult, as in say Venezuela.
Time for lunch, must away to a Vego Tasty sand witch at my local cafe.
BTW, because I ain't eating much, but eating very healthy stuff, weight has flatlined at 85Kg.
Patrick Turner.
Way off topic in my comment here, but I've always thought the Biblical 666 was mostly symbolic of a three-digit credit score. In China for instance, this will mean you can't even travel outside a confined area if your score is not adequate. As an advanced cancer patient, I've come to realize our economic system is not based on reality and we're all relying on a system of value that is only of value because we believe it to be so. How far I can play this game remains to be seen, in terms of getting my medical treatment.
I am quite dumb about a lot of US culture, but I guess Biblical 666 is a euphanism for The Devil, Satan, and to even type these names invites troubles on your house. Well no, these entities spring from within the minds of ppl and we must be on guard....
Ah, the "economic system of value", such a contentious issue for most at polite dinner parties where thous shalt not talk about sex, politics, religion - or Darn Munny. If you have money, you get the best treatment for Pca, if not, you die sooner, But if you have money, you sure can't take it with you when you go, even though ppl say they need it to buy the best apartment in Heaven, or the best mansion overlooking a suitable cloud, and some servants, decent sewer system and a psychologist to talk about the adjustment of the soul to changes in personal lifestyle 
The more rigorously enforced order around the world is being rolled out to stop the evil ppl causing so much trouble when they insist on crimes, bludging on welfare, rorting every welfare system, and acting corruptly in every deal. The Chinese Experiment has some way to go before they get very accepting of it, or they rebel against it. Time will tell.
I never much liked big cities, and left Sydney in 1973 when it was 1/2 the size, but too expensive for me, and full or females who were attractive, but desiring fornication, all without commitment. But had I been under surveillance before I left, they'd have not found anything to restrict me or punish me because they would have been so busy with those so much worse that me. We all have cried out for more law and order. Well now its here. Cameras are watching you. Who watches the cameras? Well usually nowhere near enough ppl because Sum Burokrat said it costs too much but if a crime is done, they might have a video of it being done, so the crim is caught, he cannot say he didn't do it, like they all try to.
Anyway, I am glad I don't live in 1400 where my tenure on life was done at about 35 if I was lucky. There are many ppl who work hard to make cancer treatments for us old guys and is not that a wonderment?
I live a far better life than about 5 billion other ppl on Earth. Despite our society being difficult to understand, and lead some to say its un-real, its actually not too bad, when all the good ppl just settle down to work at their tasks of giving medical help to those in a real pickle.
Sure, Big Pharma makes a pile out of medical misery, and when the rich medical barons build a mansion, they employ ppl, so the dough sloshes around the crazy system and the poor think it unjust, until they get money, and then all they want is more, they start acting to make others get less, and so on.
I was a Gleason 9. Described as "high risk". In layman's terms it means "probably die soon, but expensive on the way there"
But at least I have Medicare in Australia where I did not have to spend one cent for many treatments. The Govt acts like a good father who says to his many sons, you are all brothers, and if one of you get sick, then you others must pay to help him. But if Govt did not enforce this idea then nobody would pay for their brother's sickness, and the sick brother would perish, and that's bad for the family, bad for the country.
Nothing crazy about Medicare. Australians have 3 trillion dollars in superannuation funds, and many of those folks are bitter if asked for a cent to help their brother. The working nouveau rich are getting greedy.
I don't have any sons, but my country treats me as if I am one of its sons. Of course, we need also help our sisters well.
Patrick Turner.
Hello, I was on that particular drug for a while, I think about 3 years, with 6 monthly injections, it was moderately successful, but unfortunately failed. The PSA never came down that low, unlike on Zytiga.
Hope it works okay for your husband.
Regards.
Phil
Prior to ADT the treatment was castration and use of bicalutamide.
If I had it to do over i would skip ADT and just use castration and 150mg daily of bicalutamide.
I have been using this method for three years and pray its effectiveness lasts.
Hi David,
What was your PSA when you were diagnosed? And were you metastatic?
We have been given the above two options by 2 different MO's and am researching to find the best option. Castration+ Bicalutamide v/s ADT
Best,
Cher
I was on intermittent triple blockade for 4 years and it was still working when after a vacation I switched to estradiol patches. Best move I ever made.
bical. IS a form of ADT. Technically, it does deprive PCa cells from their main meal of testosterone, but not by reducing T levels in the body. the bical molecules block the cells' testost. receptors from getting testost. How they do that, I do not know. Do the PCa cells try to eat the bical? i do not know. whatever is going on, i sure hope the PCa cells die a horrible starvation death, until none are left. so far, 1 yr out, my PSA is still <0.1, dropped from 14.8, which had dropped from 17 when i used diet and herbal supplements, especially Zyflamend, a combo of 10 chinese herbs, many of which i was already using.
I don't relish the thought of lowering testost. level at all. Where will i get my male aggression from?
I took Bicalutamide for 8 years post RP and radiation it lost its effectiveness 18 months ago then switched to Zytiga and Zoladex, I would use the option and keep Zytiga in reserve until needed
Certainly in the order of many thousands of dollars less expensive than Xtandi and with a far more favorable side effect profile.
If it works and while it does,,,I certainly would consider it. Just because it is old and cheap, does not necessarily make it a worse option.
As noted, has worked well for some for many years,,,,Xtandi worked on only 15 months for me and in that time my copays were about 15 thousand dollars. And the fatigue was overwhelming.
Am now wondering if perhaps Casodex might work for me after failing Xtandi,,,,and Zytiga at best might have a 15 percent chance of response after having experienced this failure.
All of the ADT drugs work in a different manor, and will work differently on each individual. So yes casodex is worth a try. Don't forget some of the lessor known ADT drugs, nilandan, finasteride, etc.
Hi, diagnosed last August( Gleason 9 stage 3) and Immediately started taking Casodex and Lupron . My PSA had continued to double and redouble from 1.25 to 28 and after ADT it went down as fast as it went up. In March, started Zytiga and prednisone(still get Lupron every 4 months). PSA Results: April, .014 and last week <.014. I had HDR Brachytherapy (April 26th) and just finished 25 days of external beam. I guess I'm lucky(so far), side effects too few to mention. Also, I was not metastatic. My MSK doc says I'll continue on these meds for another 2 years. Hope this helps.
You were relatively side effect free on Lupron and Casodex??.... and with Zytiga and prednisone??..... It is dizzying how much different peoples' responses are to these drugs..... Horror stories to " no problem"..... my fingers are crossed... start probably next week...
Aside from ED and lost libido nothing yet. Best wishes
Gregg57 is correct. I used bicalutamide with dutasteride (1.0 mg/day) in lieu of LHRHa ADT. PSA < 0.04 for over 4 years and felt very fine. It failed recently (PSADT 3 months) and I promptly stopped it (PSA dropped again a little). I will keep the dutasteride as it helps with the adrenal androgens, which is a separate avenue. Next stop probably degarelix for me. (And investigating 177 Lu-PSMA by getting a 68 Ga-PSMA scan here in the USA to determine if a trip to Australia or Germany would be worth it.
It’ll work but breast pain and enlargement are typical side effects. It’s superceded by Zytiga but it’s very cheap so that’s a good thing.
Husband started on Casodex alone for about two months and had nipple tenderness. Per Tall_Allen's frequent recommendation, added Tamoxifen at the end of two months. After a month, the Tamoxifen reversed the tenderness. Should have started the two concurrently, but didn't have the script for the Tamoxifen.
Good idea.
Yup was on that for about 6 years it worked well, besides some side effects, sweating, dammit always that with whatever I take it seems. Anyway i'm on nilandron now it seems to be about the same, I get a shot every 6 months and the pill once a day.
Not what you're looking for?
You may also like...
Bicalutamide Vs Eligard
which will involve ADT and RT. The RT is scheduled to happen in early July and ADT to start soon....
Bicalutamide not working any more!
you calculate the doubling time is going from 12 month to 6 month, so very soon my PSA will be sky...
Question about bicalutamide
My PSA is 0.66 now. The low was 0.5, and most readings (six (weeks and quarterly) have been 0.6...
Told to discontinue Casodex (Bicalutamide)
again after 3 months with blood reports.
Jan (after chemo): PSA: 0.04, ALP: 81
In Feb: PSA:...
Zoladex + Bicalutamide
course) an onco I had never spoken to before seemed surprised I was not taking Bicalutamide...
Bicalutamide and Eligard
bicalutamide and finasteride
Stop bicalutamide when T low?
Bicalutamide: first lab results, nadir comes when?
