DES is As Effective As Lupron in Phase 3 Clinical Trial

[gusgold]

I would like to try DES myself so I can take a vacation from Xtandi. If any of you guys know a reliable supplier PM me.

Gus

[Hidden]

Can you share a link?

[Todd1963]

Go ahead and try DES but be prepeared to grow breasts. Also Lupron and DES are very similar in the way they fight the cancer. Most (not all) who have failed Lupron will have very little success with DES. I had my chest radiated when my breasts reached A-cup status. Now I get to worry about breast cancer as well. Also the stuff is so bad for women and girls of child bearing years that they cannot even touch the stuff.

[gusgold in reply to Todd1963]

BS...I know I lot of guys who have been on DES for years 1mg per day and they did not "grow breasts". Lupron also has massive side effects....Both Dr. Strum and Dr. Myers said to use it once then avoid it like the plague. Why...because Lupron leads to early castrate resistance, the fatal form of the disease and DES does not. Dr. Myers said he lost more patients from the side effects of Lupron then from PCa. The key to surviving PCa is to not become castrate resistant. In a phase 3 clinical trial 33% of the men who became castrate resistant on Lupron still responded to DES. Read up on Lupron...when it got FDA approval the Docs got $3000 kickbacks for every guy who got a shot so they gave every man who walked in the office with PCa Lupron and the deaths from PCa sky rocketed from castrate resistance. Your story may or may not be true because so many guys like you are making money off PCa writing books and giving lectures. How many guys on this site started off on Lupron and are now castrate resistant and fighting for their lives. If all it takes is prayer, a loving wife, and pomegranate juice (which has been proven not to work) then why are 27,000+ men dying from PCa every year.

Gus

[middlejoel in reply to gusgold]

Gus, back in 2014, after doing 7 months of AD-3 with Lupron and Casodex, I read up on DES and instead started patches, I don't remember why exactly. I have been on vivelle patches intermittently since and I am now on my 4th on period. I also take Metformin and Avodart, so far so good. The treatment has the approval of both Dr. Dorff at (now), City of Hope and Dr. Turner at Prostate Oncologist Specialist, think Dr. Scholz. Yes, I now have a nice set of boobs but what the hell, at my age (82) and with my wife having advanced altheimers, who gives a s---.

jal

[tango65]

Do you have a link to the clinical trial?

[Todd1963]

Well Gus,

I ain’t making any money off it. Sorry, I am not a troll or anything like that. My first drugs were Lupron and casadex. Casadex lasted 18 months. Lupron went another 2 years so I took a Lupron holiday. It lasted a year. Didn’t want to go back on Lupron so opted for DES. It lasted 6 months. I grew breasts in the process. When I failed it I went back on Lupron and immediately failes that. Next was Provenge and then Zytiga

[whatsinaname in reply to Todd1963]

What's your position now, Todd1963 ?? After Provenge and Zytiga ?? Provenge, I believe is an immunotherapy treatment ?? How did it work ?? And, how is Zytiga working now ??

Thank you.

[Todd1963 in reply to whatsinaname]

Hi What’s,

So my story starts in ‘06. At 42 I was diagnosed stage IV. Cancer was in my bones, lungs, lymph nodes, and brain. My PSA was over 3200. My Gleason was a solid 7 at biopsy. Never had a second opinion on my slides. On Sunday I will be 55. Not bad for a guy who was given a year or less. My doctor took me off Zytiga yesterday. Not because it failed but because I have been on it for 63 months and my PSA has been >0.01 the entire time. My scans were clean 5 years ago. I have not had any since then. Provenge does not typically exhibit a PSA response so lots of guys dis on it. Too bad. My Doc (he is an immunotherapy believer) swears that getting Provenge before starting Zytiga is the reason the Zytiga has worked so well. I have been on Zytiga longer than almost anyone ever has and I have yet to fail it.

[whatsinaname in reply to Todd1963]

Thank you very much, Todd1963.

Yes, I think getting Provenge before starting Zytiga is the way to go.

Thank you very much again for taking the time and trouble to reply to my query.

Cheers and all the very best.

[whatsinaname in reply to Todd1963]

Hi Todd1963,

Were there any side effects while you were taking Provenge and soon after ? If yes, what were they ? Thank you very much.

[Todd1963 in reply to whatsinaname]

After my first infusion I was exhausted. I slept for 24 straight hours. I am not sure if it was the Provenge or just a lot of relief. I fought for 9 months to get Provenge as my PSA climbed north of 100. It was a very stressful time in my journey. I was denied by my doctor and my insurance. I appealed the session many times all the way to the state insurance commission where I won. Other than that first day I had no side effects

[whatsinaname in reply to Todd1963]

Thank you, Todd1963, much obliged.

[BrianF505 in reply to whatsinaname]

My experience with Provence was as follows:

1st infusion- a little punky for a day. Felt like I might be getting the flu.

2nd- punky feeling a bit more pronounced and longer lasting. Almost 2 days.

3rd was my ass was cooked for about 3 days. Felt like I went through the ringer. Aches, pains, feverish. Slept a lot.

I imagine each successive infusion elicited a greater immunological response which is why I felt worse each time.

No affect on PSA. Went on Xtandi 6 months later (2014) and have been on it ever since with excellent response. Holding steady between 0.04 and 0.06.

BTW- diagnosed in 2002 at 44. Turned 60 this year in May and just had my 16th anniversary of diagnosis. I firmly believe the provenge/Xtandi combo was the “E” ticket.

[whatsinaname in reply to BrianF505]

Thank you, BrianF505. So, you have been on Xtandi for a liitle over 4 years and before that you did Provenge for a few weeks.

So, what did you do for the approx 11 years prior to that ??

Thank you for taking the time & trouble to answer.

[BrianF505 in reply to whatsinaname]

Heading out of town tomorrow. I can add more later. But for more info, check out my profile

[whatsinaname in reply to BrianF505]

Thank you, BrianF505.

I checked out your profile. Very detailed, informative and interesting. Thanks again. No need for adding anything more later, I got what I wanted.

All the very best, BrianF505. Cheers !!

[Wassersug]

A few points on the DES topic need further discussion.

DES is a synthetic oral estrogen and it was the pharmacological agent used for androgen suppression before the LHRHagonist drugs came on the market. I know of no evidence though that disease progression is significantly less with DES than a drug like Lupron. [If there is a peer-revised study showing that, please post the citation.]

If one wants to go the estrogen route for ADT, the way to do it is with a non-oral estrogen since oral estrogens increase the risk of blood clots. It was the high blood clot incidence from DES that led to the decline in its use some 30 to 40 years ago. Transdermal estradiol—the most common natural estrogen in men—is in a Phase III clinical trial right now in the UK. It appears to not have the high blood clot risk associated with DES.

As for breast development, from estrogens (when used for ADT) it does occur but both the amount of gynecomastia (the fancy term for breast development in men) and the bother from it varies greatly among men.

Both DES and transdermal estradiol are discussed in the new edition of the ADT book. [Note: I am not trying to sell the book.]

[Hidden in reply to Wassersug]

I found eligard to be nicely boobalicious after only 1 six month shot.

[Todd1963]

Hey Gus,

If you want to shut off the testosterone and do it in a way that Works better than anythIng simply have your boys snipped off. No pills no shots cancer responds better and no balls.

[gusgold in reply to Todd1963]

You claim you were riddled with PCa and your liver looked like swiss cheese...your Doc said so did your brain....you drank pomegranate juice, ate chocolate and your PCa was cured...not only that you now have full sexual function on Lupron and Zytiga...below is what George Carlin said about Guys named Todd

youtube.com/watch?v=14tBBSF...(Not working as expected?)

[Todd1963 in reply to gusgold]

I never said a word about my liver or being cured. I do drink Pom though. The rest of your post is crap and you and Carlin S M F’s

[whatsinaname in reply to Todd1963]

I agree 100%, Todd1963. His post is a load of crap. Ignore him completely.

[Boywonder56 in reply to gusgold]

Lmao....fighting like a bunch of 3rd graders....we are stronger together...but its the differences that make it fun....peace to all..listen to carlin on dogs... a riot

[whatsinaname in reply to Boywonder56]

Carlin seems to be (to me, at least) a prejudiced, vulgar, human being.

[jimnbunny]

I have 9 bottles Q+ Prostasol if anyone is interested.

[jimnbunny in reply to jimnbunny]

Lot#09050

[gusgold in reply to jimnbunny]

that batch was supposed to be spiked with DES but the product is over 10 years old and the Doc who made it went to jail. Look up DES, even frozen DES remains potent for 3 years.....your Q+ is worthless which is why it quit working for you

Gus

[jimnbunny in reply to gusgold]

I stopped taking it18 mo. ago when my PSA went to <0.006. I guess i was lucky. I also have older lot # 08394 and 08284 and they are even more potent. Why not check with Patrick.

[gusgold]

the fact is I located a supplier in China who will sell me 20 grams of DES for $200..that is new stuff that would last 20,000 days, even drinking a bottle of gator blood a day I doubt I would run out, and you want $75 for a 10 year old bottle of a spiked supplement that would last 80 days

[j-o-h-n]

I still recommend 2 scoops of chocolate chip ice cream a day.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 11/28/2018 6:07 PM EST

[gusgold in reply to j-o-h-n]

Here is a last known pic of John eating ice cream...John just has no luck...turns out the ice cream was made from milk of a cow that had mad cow disease

1.bp.blogspot.com/-tSP2ehbo...

[j-o-h-n in reply to gusgold]

Thanks for picking the best picture from my album...Here's one of you in drag...from your wedding album:

ghettoredhot.com/ugly-peopl...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 11/28/2018 8:25 PM EST

[Boywonder56]

Children......

[E2-Guy]

Gus, I Love your humor...kinda nice to see some of the guys posting 'stuff' that brings about a smile as opposed to tears!

When I became a candidate for ADT I started reading every article that I could find about the old drug (DES) that I believe kept my dad and his two brothers alive for many years, and with few of the nasty side effects that Lupron and other 'modern day' drugs exhibit. My dad and my uncles were not 'cry babies', but I think that I would have heard at least some complaints if they were not doing well...don't recall any! My dad was still riding a 1000 cc Kawasaki Z1 until he got hit by a car at 87. That put an end to his biking days; he then fished until he died at 89. One of his brothers still worked with the night shift in his 'Tool & Die' shop until about 75, and spent the last 12 years of his life fishing and sailing. My other uncle moved down to Hilton Head at 80 and enjoyed four good years there...died at 86. All three of them had RPs around age 60 followed by biochemical recurrence.

From most of what I read, it appears that DES has similar efficacy to Lupron with the most significant SE being gynecomastia. About nine months ago a 'ladyboy' here in Thailand told me he/she was using transdermal E2 (estradiol) gel to suppress 'her' T level and enlarge her breasts. I posted a question on this site regarding its use for recurrence of PCa and Richard Wassersug, PhD replied with a wealth of information. He has authored two books on ADT and has become my mentor on my successful use of tE2. I have previously posted my very encouraging test results.

[VictoryPC]

PCSPES and DES work the best. That is the real reason it was removed from the market. Many still combine the two after CRPC. Nobody can understand just how bad CRPC is.

[AlmostnoHope]

I use 8 pills of PCSPES with 1 mg. DES I got from a vet. I works for me with minimal side effects. I use the DES a month on , 3 months off for 4 years now. PSA is stable and that's all my doctor is concerned about. PSA had risen to high 60's now at around 4.6